Is Miele Fading Away?

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mrb627

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Buford, GA
Saturday, I decided to advance my research for a Miele Dishwasher. I selected 3 retail locations closest to my house.

The first location, I was told that they had Miele for two years and never sold a single unit. Nobody knew who Miele was and never asked about them. They have been out of the Miele business for over 6 months and they are still listed on the Miele website.

The second location, was also no longer a Miele reseller. They had them but dropped them as they only sold 4 units in all the time they carried them. Sales guy said that eventually Miele will sell in the US the same way they sell in Canada. Such that the reseller will take the order but then hand everything over to Miele to deliver and install. At least, that is what he had heard right before they decided to drop Miele.

The third place, they would be happy to order a machine for me. But they didn't have a unit on the floor to show and no literature. Directing me to the Miele website for pdf literature instead.

To say the least, this doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about purchasing a Miele machine at this point.

Malcolm
 
Hi Malcom,

Miele has average high prices so one has worth not to stock them (higher storage/stock costs)
To give you a clue here in Italy the most displayed model on salesfloors is this cheapest one G 1022 SC that costs round 650 €
MIELE-G1022SC.jpg

That is less than several LG,Whirlpool,Electrolux,Hotpoint-Ariston and Candy TOL models, this fact is a strong selling point

American market is very strange ..... average american people have lower requirements than europeans (here DW with plastic tubs don't exist, even the el cheapo machines have stainless tubs), but when it comes to Miele DW everyone craves for La Perla that cost thrice than that machine in the shot. Can't make up it .... Miele is very wortly in BOL model cause you get a stronger machine at the price of competitors TOL disposable models. Only same priced Bosch/Siemens machines are as good as Mieles, eg this MOL/TOL Bosch model :

Lavastoviglie_header.jpg
 
Bosch has much wider market penetration

Lowes Hardware sells Bosch dishwashers, but not Miele. Bosch parts and repair services are easier to find vs. Miele. And an entry level Miele is priced similar to a TOL Bosch here.

I know of several retailers that sell Miele DW, but they tend to be higher end stores for people doing expensive remodels rather than shopping for one replacement appliance:

http://www.pacificsales.com/kitchen_bath_electronics/

http://www.universal-akb.com/dishwashers.html

Miele dishwashers START at $1100

http://www.universal-akb.com/g2142wh.html

and go up to $2200-2500 for LaPerla.

When Bosch continuously tops the Consumer Reports ratings year after year, and $1100 will buy you their higher end models, people go with Bosch due to reputation. My Bosch DW (purchased 2001) cost $600. It has concealed door controls but otherwise is a basic model with PowerScrub Plus, Regular, and Quick Wash cycles, and only the basic soundproofing (52 or 54 decibels, I believe). It has never had a service call and gets everything clean on Regular wash, even dried on oatmeal. When it goes and can't be repaired, I'd replace it with a similar model which now might cost closer to $700.

PS to favorit re: stainless steel tubs. People over here think it's a luxury item to have stainless steel tubs, their mindset is "a plastic tub won't break"---which is true, but it ignores the fact that a stainless steel tub helps water to evaporate off the dishes (and condense on the steel tub), which allows models like Bosch to be built without heated drying. The typical consumer here sees it as a cosmetic upgrade rather than one that is functional. For that reason, you can buy $300 dishwashers here with plastic tubs. They are noisy but they work, but you usually can't get by with Economy (no-heat) drying, because of the lack of a steel tub.

When I first bought the Bosch DW, my parents were asking "why are you buying a $1400 DW?" and my reply was, "Because it's a $600 DW, same price as a basic KitchenAid" (which they have). They associated Bosch with Miele-level prices. Bosch figured out correctly that the market for $600-700 dishwashers was larger than the market for $1500 dishwashers. That is, you can convince people to pay $600-700 instead of $300-400 if quality is good. So they stole part of the market from KitchenAid, which was considered to be the leading quality brand in USA prior to wide availability of European brands. By the way, my Bosch was made here in USA, not in Germany. Mieles are made in Germany which may explain the added costs due to labor and freight charges.

Another factor here is whether you can get a machine repaired. No problem with US brands, and Bosch is common enough that many repair services can fix a Bosch. If you have an ASKO or Miele, you are probably in luck in a major city, but in a rural area, you may have to fix it yourself if no repair services are nearby. As mrb627 pointed out, some of the stores he visited had never heard of Miele dishwashers.

Finally, Miele has an odd form of distribution over here. In addition to being sold through some higher end appliance stores (like the links I posted), in some cases they are also sold by small stores that are Miele-only---people may tend to stay away from small stores because they fear the store may go out of business (compared to buying from a major chain like Sears or Best Buy or Lowes). Miele vacuums are sold this way: you never see them in major appliance stores, you buy them in small local shops like in Europe....this sort of distribution to us seems a little odd (unless you have visited Europe). There are three vacuum stores in my area that sell and service Miele vacuums. The prices are all identical because if Miele discovers that a store is selling at a discount, their permission to sell Miele will be discontinued. Persil is sold in USA through an exclusive contract with Miele, which is why it costs $50 a box in USA. And why I bring home boxes of Persil or equivalent from European trips, much to the amazement of European friends (if they had to pay $50 for their Persil, they would understand). My "souvenir shopping" is nearly always done at a supermarket, not in stores that cater to tourists, so I can bring home specialty foods and Persil.

This sometimes creates payment problems because many European markets do not accept non-EU credit cards, their system is not set up to verify them. Tourist stores DO accept non-EU credit cards, they have to in order to survive, but they pay a higher commission than stores that accept only EU cards. I remember Europe being years behind USA in the transition from cash to credit cards, in particular a visit in 1989 to Cologne's largest bookstore (Mayerisch) and they accepted only CASH. Then in the 80's and 90's, you could use credit cards everywhere, but now I see a change to EU-only verification systems, particularly in places where tourists don't normally shop (supermarkets, etc.). A shopkeeper in the main square of Aachen explained this to me. I asked her why her store took my credit card while I could not use it in a market, and she explained she paid a higher commission to be in the world-wide verification system, whereas the markets are in an EU-only system because they pay lower commissions (and have few customers outside the EU). The shopkeeper said she had to be in the worldwide system to survive, since most of her customers were tourists. I saw the same system in rural Sweden last fall. All of the stores selling textiles or crystal (Kosta Boda, etc.) accepted my credit cards, but they wouldn't work at the supermarket. I have found that usually American Express works in markets more than non-EU MasterCard or VISA, but even then I run into problems, and I have to remember to carry cash. I rented a car on that Swedish trip, and was unable to use any credit card (AmEx, VISA, or MC) at any gas station over the course of a week. The locals' cards worked, mine did not.

ps I don't always agree with Consumer Reports evaluations, but many people who aren't well informed will use it as a buying guide. CR evaluates current cleaning ability and price, but cannot test long-term durability with its testing program. They may put their machines through a rigorous testing schedule, so their cleaning ability recommendations may be valid, but they don't test machines for ten years to see which ones hold up and which ones don't last. [this post was last edited: 5/3/2010-10:59]
 
Miele Locations

Malcolm............... You are just going to have to come up to NJ. We have a beautifull showroom there or all the appliances. And on certain Thursdays of the month, you can see all the cooking appliances demonstrated and have dinner there, table lines, wine and all. We had Shrimp ALfredo, Filet mignon, salmon ceasar salad and dessert and coffee. And even do a load of wash while we were eating dinner

They let customers bring in a load of lauddry to try out their Model W4840 which is hooked up along with the dryer.

Come on up..... I will be happy to take you there.

The La Perla dishwasher is fantastic.

Ray
 
Stainless tub

Jim, the stainless tub has very little to do with the hidden heating element. Stainless tubs appeared in early seventies, people was tired of enamel that chipped and rusted ...
we had stainless tub dishwashers with exposed heating elements for almost two decades.

The first machine with a hidden heating element was the Philips ADG 66X series in mid/late eighties. Five years later the new owner (Whirlpool Europe, who acquired Philips whitegoods dep) made a BOL version with a polyprophilene tub. Guess it disappeared within six months as it has been a market flop

To give you a clue, today the cheapest fully integrated DW is a IGNIS (whirlpool) @ 199 €, a true el cheapo machine, yet it has a stainless tub

What you wrote about Bosch/Siemens in the US is so true (they don't feel Miele as a competitor on your market) to the point they don't feel the need to sell there machines with the mielesque cutlery tray
 
What I meant about stainless steel is that it allows effective, nonheated drying. Of course, my Bosch DW has a heating element (not exposed) to heat water to proper temperature. But evaporative drying doesn't work very well with a plastic tub. I agree that the old enamel tubs used to chip, etc., but plastic tubs don't chip, nor do they generally break or wear out. But in order to dry properly, they need the heating element turned on. Stainless steel tubs allow (if the water is hot enough) the moisture to evaporate off the dishes and condense on the tub sides, without turning on the heating element during drying (of course it's on during the final rinse, to achieve the correct rinse temperature). Plastic tubs are durable, but the difference between steel and plastic is more than cosmetic or durability. My previous old GE DW with plastic tub had an "Energy Save" switch that shut off the heating elements, but the dishes were never very dry. I used to open the door and let things dry off overnight---basically, dishes were still wet, and I used the DW as a two level drying rack!!

I agree with you about no third rack on US Bosch models: they feel they don't need to compete with Miele because the market for $600-1000 DW's is larger than the market for $1000-2500 DW's.
 
I think that most Americans want a machine that just does the job. No more, no less. Hence the popularity of BOL GE, Maytag and Admiral and the likes. The only people who really would like a Miele are people who are knowledgable about the brand and quality. It seems that Miele does next to no advertising over here, so there is not that much brand awareness of the general public.

Plus most Americans bulk when they see that a Miele DW may put them back $2300.(USD) or so. This also limits the Miele brand to more or less the carriage trade.
 
Local Dealer

The one local dealer I spoke with that seemed very knowledgable about the brands I mentioned said that they have sold 10 times more Asko dishwashers than Miele. Plus, there is an Asko showroom less than 10 miles from me that has all there machines connected an operational.

I mentioned the XXL laundry equipment. He did not even want to discuss it. Just a huge mistake on Asko's part having another company build for them. With several sets being purchased back by Asko. He indirectly mentioned a true Asko version soming soon.

The sad thing is I am really interested in the Miele Excella dishwasher, but if I cannot put my hands on one, I wont buy it.

Malcolm
 
I know that many high-end design firms here in ATL went belly up with the recession (along with all unfinished subdivisions). The dealer in Midtown moved into a smaller storefront, and I think they primarily deal vacuums.
 
Midtown

The dealer in midtown only had the w48XX series machines and the w3035 set on the floor operational. The only dishwasher they had on the floor was the professional series.

That was almost 2 years ago that I was down there researching the Little Giants.

I ended up going to the Miele dealership in Boca Raton FL when I was down for the Xmas Holiday's. They acted like they didn't know what the Little Giant set was. When I explained that it was part of the Professional line, they said none of their showrooms would have them on the sales floor.

So I gave up on the Little Giants.
 
Showroom Display Models

Could be wrong, but don't think MieleUSA gives dealers any of those machines, they must lay out some funds.

Considering how slow Miele sales could be in some areas, who could blame a store for not wanting to tie up floor real estate and capital?

MieleUSA has a decent enough distribution and network of repair persons if one lives in a major urban area, or at least one with enough high worth persons that make the thing worth it for some dealer, otherwise you are on your own.

Miele also has some of the most outrageous call out charges, and their spare parts aren't cheap either.

As Miele refuses to take a page from Bosch's book and open a North American plant, we have to pay the cost of importing to these shores. Also since Miele USA has everthing locked up, it is a captive market. One can walk into most any appliance repair store in the UK or EU and purchase Miele spares right off the shelf at decent enough prices.

As for plastic tubbed dishwashers not being able to dry without the heater engaged, I don't know about that.

My Frigidare portable has been going strong for almost ten years and probably have used the "heated dry" function less than ten times. Dishes always are dry the next morning long as everything is loaded properly. Oh there may be the odd water on top of a cup or glass, but everything else is dry.

Only time one had a problem was when in a fit of "green" started to use Ecover rinse aid. Darn stuff didn't get anything done no matter how high the rinse aid dispenser dial was turned up. Switched back to Jet Dry, and that is exactly what happens.
 
They are still in business, but moved to a smaller location up Cheshire Bridge at the corner of Falkner (by the Jungle and the Heretic clubs). They don't display appliances in the window and appear to be focusing on vacuums.
 
Euro dishwasher questions

So, is the theory behind a stainless steel tub and no heated-dry that the hot water makes the stainless tub hot, and thus the radiant heat off the tub is what makes the dishes dry?

Are there no Miele or Bosch dishwashers that have heated dry?

Is it true that Euro dishwashers do not have hard food disposers? They have little filter cups that collect food debris?

I understand that fewer gadgets use less energy, but it seems like a step backwards in performance and convenience.
 
Hi Doug,

In the last 10 years, its only BOL Euro stuff that Might have a heating element to dry. Everything else uses condensation against the tub, or fans to exchange the air in the tub with the air outside, thus cooling it down and causing the moisture to condense against the tub.

Euro Dishwashers also have approx 55-65degC (130F-150F) rinses. The dishes are usually as hot as those comming out of a machine with heated dry.

My Miele and Bosch have no hard food disposer, I scrape, but vegetable and meat scraps still go into the dishwasher, along with carbonised fats, biscuit dough, etc. The Miele flushes most things down the drain, I check the filter once a month and rinse at that time. The Bosch filter is entirely self cleaning, I've removed it a few times, but am yet to need to clean anything out of it. Unless you're dropping half a steak in there or Large food scraps its never an issue.

The filter is designed to do two things, 1) prevent particles being circulated through the wash, 2) prevent particles that are too large for the pump from blocking it. Otherwise they are openish at the bottom to allow the particles to drain away with the wash water.
 
If I am understanding correctly

The Miele and Bosch dishwashers DO have heating elements, but they are used to heat the water to a temperature hotter than what is typically produced by a home's hot water heater. Then what happens is that the extra-hot dishes from the extra-hot water cause the moisture to evaporate off the dishes, then it condenses on the stainless tub and drains away.

Is that more or less correct?

Is the air-exchange fan common, or is it only featured on the top-of-the-line models?

That commercial model sounds nice -- wash AND dry in only 20 minutes? At that price, though, it should also put away the clean dishes and clean the countertops.
 
Doug,
yes that's right ... after the last rinse drain you can't ever think to handle dishes without scalding yourself

Residential mieles have a *concealed* element (it is a coil winded up on the outlet hose of the wash pump- check the shot in the next link) while semi commercial G 8000 series and true commercial G 7000 series do have an exposed element like american dishwashers (and as every european residential DW was until mid eighties)

What Nathan wrote about the air exchange was right about previous G 600 and G 800 series. Current series ** don't exchange air with the outside** = no steam/moist exits the tub. They have an air cooled heat exchanger (same as condenser dryers but smaller, it's under the sump). A double shaft blower recirculates the air inside the tub through the heat exchanger with one fan, while the other fan cools down the heat exchanger with room air.
Also Whirlpool Europe and Electrolux TOL models work this way.

Bosch/Siemens dry differently : they have a flat water tank sticked outside of the stainless tub. In the middle of the drying step, this tank fills with cold water and cools down the stainless tub to enhance condensation. That's why Bosch dry better with a cold fill hookup.

You're right that miele is darn dear ... but you have to consider it is not meant for a residential usage rather for small restaurans or hospitals. In my town hospital (public, italian state is the owner) all division thermodisinfecting DWs are Mieles, as also surgery tools washers and lab glass washers. I point out "public" cause public usually goes cheap. I guess they have gone miele cause it's is cheaper in long term cost ratings (less servicing required and so on..)

 
Bauknecht / Whirlpool Europe heating element

I guess it gives a better clue of a concealed element consisting of a electrico coil winded upon a hose

he928071.jpg
 

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