ITALIAN... ongoing thread- ethnic cooking

[andrewinorlando]

"Most Americans of Italian descent try hard to learn to cook well, and the food they cook is really good. It is very different to the food cooked in Italy, but very good"

True for some Italian Americans who take shortcuts and make variations on the originals rather than the real deal, but absolutely, positively not true for many.....when the authentic ingredients are available, like semolina flour (who the hell uses white flour????), etc. As full blooded Sicilians, we got our goods directly from Italy for decades along with the real deal recipes and techniques that our grandparents brought with them. If you go to areas like Bay Ridge, Brooklyn or Arthur Avenue in the Bronx, you'll find that, with the exception of "American" Italian pizza, the real deal is still very much alive, right down to the slaughtered calves hanging in the butcher's window.

Most real Italian "cooks" would never be able to give you an actual recipe....they don't measure anything...they cook by the aromas. Italian cooking is not hard to do. It's real beauty is in its simplicity.

As a sicilian, most of what I grew up with and what I still make today, you will rarely find on any menu in any Italian restaurant as they were considered to be "peasant foods".....homegrown concoctions that sustained the rural folks who had very little and had to rely on what they could grow to survive. Our staples were generally fish of many types...octopus, squid, salted cod, scungilli, scabbard, whiting, tuna, and other things that many people hear about and just say ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. But the Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Normans, and Spanish all left their marks on Sicilian cuisine and culture, so the blending of these resulted in some remarkable dishes that we've eaten for decades, and still do today.

 

[perc-o-prince]

Most real Italian "cooks" would never be able to g

Andrew, is that anything like...

"I always make it from memory and add a little of this or that different, depending on my mood?" (see my bracciole recipe)

Maybe I'm Italian by blood (instead of just by injection) after all!!!

Chuck

 

[perc-o-prince]

Gabriele

Thanks for the nix on pancetta.

BTW- have you ever heard of something called "tulta?" It might be called something somewhat different, but it's supposedly northern Italian. It's made with potatoes and cheese baked in a bottom crust (more prep involved, but that's the basic idea). I've been entrusted with the recipe from the last aunt in Rich's family who made it according to the Nona's old recipe. She was from an area called Monastere (that's not likely to be the right spelling).

Chuck

 

[panthera]

Sicilian

Sicilian cooking counts among the greatest in the world. The further south you go in Italy (I am counting Sicily as part of Italy) the more pronounced certain spices (rosemary, yum) become.

Pizza, as Americans know it is a purely American food. Nothing wrong with it, tastes fine. But it is related to Italian food as a White "Frigidaire" washer was related to a GM "Frigidaire" Unimatic.

One of my favorite Italian recipes is idiot proof (good for me) and common to the area around Terracina in Latium:

Roll out a thin pastry dough. Brush it with a fruity olive oil.
Pile thinly sliced (very thin) potatoes on it, drizzle with ore olive oil and scatter rosemary. Pour salt into the palm of your hand, then with the fingers of the other hand, strew it over the potatoes and rosemary.
Drizzle some more olive oil, bake in a very hot oven until the thinly sliced potatoes are done.

Heaven.

Sold on the streets during that awful moment around twilight when you realize that even Southern Italy gets chilly once the sun goes down in March.

That is the closest to "American" pizza you get in real Italian cooking. Calzone are wonderful, but a totally different thing, altogether.

Of course, today, you can get Pizza Hut everwhere in Europe, even in Italy. Tastes just as shitty there as in the US.

 

[jeffg]

Andrew, your post made me laugh, because I remember trying to get proportions out of my dad when he was giving me the recipe I posted earlier. E.g. "a little salt" equals about a half teaspoon.

My dad's family is from Rome and high-brow (his grandfather was head cook for Victor Emmanuel III and his gay son Umberto II, the last two Savoy kings of Italy), but my mom's family is from peasant stock in the hill towns of Naples. It made for some pleasant diversity in our diet, e.g. dad did Christmas Eve every year with seafood (no pasta dishes), Christmas Day was my mom's affair (usually meat and pasta). But all of these recipes had one thing in common: they were what their parents had made in Italy. In fact my parents had access to ingredients here in the U.S. that could only be dreamed of by their parents.

 

[andrewinorlando]

Oh please Jeff, my friends want to kill me when they ask me how to make things they've had at my house...I can't tell you how much of anything to use....just some of this, some of that, a squeeze of lemon, a handful of whatever...you know by how it smells when it's cooking, or by its consistency/texture in the pot. Only times I measure is in baking....that has to be at least somewhat accurate. But I couldn't tell you how much of what to put where if I tried. I use my measuring spoons as scoops, I don't even know what the hell they measure. And if you're using wine in a recipe, then the rule is always that more is better!!

 

[andrewinorlando]

Chuck - that's exactly it! No one in my family, except maybe for my Aunt Theresa (God rest her soul!) could ever give you an actual recipe. We all just understood the "some of this, some of that" methodology. Somehow we just managed to get it right. Might be a genetic thing, I don't know.

Chuck, in your bracciole recipe, try a slight variation by substituting fresh minced garlic (to taste) for the garlic powder...you may like the difference in the flavor (if you like garlic). The nutmeg adds excellent flavor, and I also add some minced parsley to the mixture for a little extra sweetness. (No, I don't know how much I use!!) You can also try it with some raisins added to the mix. Very nice flavor.

Many of the goodies we like such as cannolis, caponata, even roasted veggies, are sicilian inventions.

 

[phillygrl]

Nunni's Biscotte or Stroufoli

Here's my Nunni's (Grandma's) recipe for biscotte. These are soft, not like the hard ones from the coffee shop.

1/2 stick butter
1/2 cup milk (not quite)
1/2 cup sugar
2 eggs
1 teaspoon vanilla
1 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
about 2 1/2 cups flour

Mix baking powder with flour. Melt butter in milk. Beat eggs and sugar. Combine with milk mixture. Add to flour and knead lightly. Allow to rest. For biscotte roll strips of dough and make into O's like a small doughnue. Pinch ends together. Bake in a 350 degree oven for 15 to 20 minutes. Make a thin glaze with confectioners sugar and milk. Put in all the biscotte and glaze them. Eat them and enjoy.

For stroufoli (Easter biscotte) make the dough the same way. Roll strips of dough and cut into little pieces, about marble size. Fry in hot oil. When they are all cooked, heat up honey and glaze the cookies with the honey. These are addictive!

Lisa

 

[dj-gabriele]

@perc-o-prince

I'm afraid I can't help, I have neer known of something called "tulta" and a quick search on a database gives me a dessert with nuts and ricotta what is tipical of Sardinia, If you could be more specific I'd love to help but also "Monastere" is not a town I know but I can give some clues: there are at least two in Piedmont with similar names: "Monastero di Lanzo" in the provence of Turin and "Monastero Bormida" in the provence of Asti, so if your grandma was in the north, this might be one of the two cities.

 

[perc-o-prince]

You can also try it with some raisins added to the mix

Rich's father uses raisins in his meatballs, and I do sometimes as well! I'll have to try it in the bracciole stuffing next time (I have some in the freezer from the last batch).

Generally I do use fresh garlic. The taste is so much better. And, I forgot to put parsley on the list of ingredients both for the bracciole AND the golabki in the Polish post!

And I know exactly what you and Jeff mean about getting recipes! When I was learning the tulta from Rich's great aunt, I had to keep asking and asking about how much of this/that. Her daughter (our cousin Carol who shows up in party pix) helped me drag approximations out of her. Of course, she started with 30# of potatoes! I only use 10# so I had to 1/3 everything.

Chuck

 

[panthera]

Olive oil and butter

are another typically Italian combination which is heavenly. For some reason, you can sauté and fry with the two together at far higher temperatures than with butter alone.

I love fresh garlic, dried and powdered garlic are abominations which one never sees in good cooking, Italian-American or Italian in Italy.

Raisins sound good, I'll have to give them a try. Thanks for the idea!

 

[andrewinorlando]

Keven, olive oil has a much higher burn point than does butter alone, so when you mix the two together, you inherit the flavor of the butter, and the higher flash point of the olive oil. Otherwise, with butter alone, you could never get it just hot enough to fry/sautee without it starting to turn brown in the pan.

 

[panthera]

Oh-hah

So that is it. Thanks, Andrew.

 

[perc-o-prince]

Most Italian food, in case any American Italians here are wo

Hi Kevin,

I think what you may be missing is that for such a small coutry it has very diverse cooking styles which use very different ingredients. To my knowledge there is a huge difference between northern and sothern Italian food. My great grandfather came from a city and my great grandmother came from the mountains. My other great grandfather came from Cicily. All three brought very different styles of cooking with them to the USA. All very wonderful but very different. The only one to use Oregano was the one from Cicily. ALL THREE of them used a lot of GARLIC!!! I remember some of my great uncles would eat raw Garlic!!! They never got colds because nobody could get close enough to them to infect them!!!

I do suspect, Kevin, that you may be generalizing based on your own experiences. No harm done but I'm just telling my own experiences as an second generation American Italian who ate MUCH home grown, home butchered (we had a large farm) Italian food made by "off the boat" Italians. Those experiances contradict some of what you claim.

BTW..We weren't allowed to eat ANYTHING with a Chef-Boy-ar-DE lable

Rich (Cincotta, Bertonazzi, Castignetti, Fillipo...you gat the picture)

 

[perc-o-prince]

Oops- Sicily..... Duh!

Rich

 

[58limited]

I don't know how authentic this is, but I like it:

Tuscan Spareribs

1/4 cup minced garlic, plus two cloves sliced
1/4 cup finely chopped fresh sage
1/4 cup finely chopped fresh rosemary
2 tbsp salt (I usually use 1 tbsp)
1 tbsp black pepper
1 tbsp plus 2 tsp crushed redpepper flakes
7 lbs pork spareribs - slice into individual ribs
7 tbsp extra virgin olive oil
3 1/4 cups canned crushed tomatoes
1 1/2 tbsp Worchestershire sauce
1 1/2 tbsp hot pepper sauce
1 1/2 cup water
1 cup dry white wine (this recipe makes a red sauce - I used a red wine and it was great)

Combine minced garlic, sage, rosemary, salt, black pepper, and 1 tbsp red pepper flakes. Rub ribs well with this and wrap in plastic. Refrigerate for 24-48 hours.

Pre-heat oven to 375 degrees. Coat large baking pan with 1/4 cup olive oil and lay ribs in pan. Roast 1 hour, stirring every 20 minutes. Turn ribs over and roast 1 hour more. Check periodically: if bottom of pan starts to burn, add water. While ribs are roasting, coat large skillet with the rest of the olive oil. Add sliced garlic and 2 tsp red pepper flakes. Saute over medium until garlic starts to color. Add tomatoes, Worchestershire sauce, and pepper sauce. Add 1 1/2 cup water and bring to a simmer. Cook 30 minutes. When ribs have browned on both sides, drain pan (important or recipe will be too oily). Add tomato mixture and wine, cover with foil, and braise in oven for 40 minutes. Remove foil and roast 20 minutes. Serve.

 

[perc-o-prince]

Keven,

Rich got to the computer before me.

What I wanted to reply was that everything has its place. Perhaps your cooking doesn't span as many different styles, ethnicities, or methods as I try to, but how, exactly, would you make a dry rub for chicken, ribs, or brisket without granulated garlic?? How would you season, say, chicken breast before dredging it in flour or breadcrumb without granulated garlic?? I keep saying granulated, as I don't use powder. It clumps too easily (though onion powder doesn't- curious!).

Also, imparting subtle flavor to sausage, bone fide Italian or not, is probably best done with granulated vs. "real." Unless you take the peeled cloves for a little trip in the blender with some of the water, maybe? Nah. Too harsh.

I stand by my use of what I consider the trinity of garlic, to be used as suited to the dish: fresh, granulated, and roasted!

Chuck

 

[panthera]

Chuck and Rich,

I love garlic. Eat it cut fine on butter on bread.
Eat it baked.
Eat it smoked.
Never, ever fry it.
Never use it powdered.
Granulated is fine.
Rubbed with salt to dissolve, never put through those horrid presses.

I never attacked American Italian cooking. Ever. I like it. I enjoy it. Since I live right around the corner from Italy and since I had a real Italian Grandmother, I am in the very lucky position to compare the two cuisines. Yes, as many here have mentioned, what we frequently encounter in American Italian cooking is strongly southern Italian/Sicilian in influence.

That is fine.

In Italy of the 21st century, garlic and oregano are used, as are many wonderful sausages and meat.

However, meat does not play anywhere near the role it does in American Italian cooking. Oregano is a minor, reserved note, not the predominate. No Italian, nowhere in Italy would ever voluntarily use dried garlic if he or she could possibly avoid it, including starving for three days first. What we call 'Italian Sausage' in America does not exist in Italy. What we call meatballs is purely American - the closest Italian equivalent is to be found in the wonderful Wedding Soup. Pizza as found at Pizza Hut is an abomination before the gods.

I won't discuss cheese.

When served with a sauce, the pasta would be 3 or 4 times the quantity we find typically in the US, the sauce much less. That is a definite advantage to the American Italian style, in my opinion.

OK? I am not attacking anyone or their cuisine. Just pointing out the difference. Honestly. I love American Italian.

And (feel free to all hate me for this) I shall be in Italy this spring, in the Tuscany at a seminar. For an entire week. I'll be thinking of you all.

 

[toggleswitch2]

ok bitches *SMACK*, *SMACK*, *SMACK* here is another opinion.

Don't go by me, but garlic other than oven-roasted tastes bitter to me, so garlic powder (NEVER BITTER)has a great place in the pantry for me. Or course I try to eat as much garlic as I can for health reasons but it ain't easy, Mary.

That and lactose intolerance and you can KEEP ITALIAN CUUISINE *LOL* anyhoo............

Here is one opinion on Itlian-American cuisine. The spousal unit is of Nothern Italian heritage and does dairy like crazy. Tomato sauce? Not so much. Actually I get teased for how much I use. (It's a Greek technique derived from the Turkish called YAXNI, but I digress...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian-American_cuisine

 

[toggleswitch2]

Cucina Italiana

My maternal and paternal sides come from north and south of their country; the food is totally different.

So perhaps we now know WHY Italian-American food may be different than some actual italian regional cooking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cuisine