KD 20 or 21?

[mattntn]

Well I've finally found 2 machines but was wondering which would you pick as a daily driver. Both are in good condition. The KD 20 is only about an hour away. There is a KD21 also but is about 4 hours away...like I said both are in great shape, but I want to make the right choice...
Ironic how one can look for so long then all of a sudden they just pop up all around you.

 

[rp2813]

Well, the KD 20 is all Hobart, if that's a factor you want to consider.  Are they both the same model?

 

[mattntn]

The 21 is a Superba and the 20 is a Patrician

 

[rp2813]

The Superba has the Sani-Rinse option, the Patrician does not.

 

The Superba has a reversing motor and failure prone check valve, the Patrician has a non-reversing motor and snapping solenoid.  Choose your poison.

 

The Superba has, I believe, "Automatic Water Heating," but if I'm not mistaken, it also sits and heats the water in the beginning, which I'm pretty sure is how the Patrician works.  I'm a little sketchy on the heating behavior of the Superbas from the 21 series and later.

 

Being a Hobart machine, the Patrician may offer better parts availability than the Superba.

 

I'm not so sure I'd feel the Superba was worth the additional six hours round trip.

 

[washer111]

A Case of "Chose your Poison"

Whilst the Patrician is the "lesser machine" it is not by any means less superior. As Ralph highlighted above, the availability of parts certainly is an issue that may need addressing.

 

Here is a list of Pros/Cons of the two machines:

<ul>
<li>Both machines feature the automatic water heating that allows the wash to operate at 140°F. As far as I know, this is a thermally-held Pre-Wash (I.e. The Pre-Wash stops while the water heats). The heater is engaged in the Main-Wash to maintain and slightly increase water temperature. Some later models also included a thermally-held Main-Wash period, although that may have been limited to the ISE Badged models</li>
<li>The 21-series will only have a Purge-Rinse following the Main-Wash (and perhaps the Pre-Wash too) in order to save water. This is not very good if you are using Jet-Dry (Think toxic!). By removing the flow-restrictor on the water intake, you can alleviate this to some extent</li>
<li>The 20-series should still have two complete rinses - a nice bonus</li>
<li>The 21-series has the "better" Self-Cleaning Filter and Disposal system, where the 20 has a slightly more primitive system that isn't as efficient/effective</li>
<li>Some machines in the 21 series have racks that are prone to rusting</li>
</ul>
Those are all I can think of at this time, although I'm sure someone will chime in and correct/add to what I mentioned. Really, these differences do not matter if one machine is in terrible shape and the other is in pristine condition, since there is no comparison and no point buying the wreck!

Chose whichever machine is in better condition, however I would lean towards the 20-series machine if they are both equal in terms of condition, considering it still has water heating and more rinses.

 

[chachp]

I just took out a KDS21 in favor of a KDS20

And personally I think the 20 is doing a better job of cleaning. They both stop and heat the water for the initial prewash on most of the cycles. I think the Low Energy on the 20 is the only one that doens't but I'd have to go back and look at the book because I don't use that cycle very often.

While my 20 is a Superba and your 20 is a Patrician I think the parts that really matter are pretty much the same.

When I was faced with the decision I chose the 20 and I'm happy with the performance plus you get all the great sounds of the 20 and less series machines. The 21 is a little quieter than the 20 if that matters to you.

The 21 is where things seem to start changing and in my opinion not for the better. The main thing I didn't like about the 21 was only one final rinse. The dishes in the 20 just seem cleaner or brighter or something to me and I think it's the extra rinse that really makes a difference.

The 21 does seem to have a better filter system to look at but I really haven't had any issues with redeposited food on my dishes on the 20.

I think it's obvious which machine gets my vote.

 

[combo52]

KD20 or KD21

Both machines are 100% Hobart designed and maybe built, that should not be a factor in your decision. The 21s had a much more robust and durable pump, no chewed up plastic drain  impellers and loose cooling fans on the motor. Even though the 21 will probably need a new CV rubber insert it is still less trouble than the drain valve on earlier machines.

 

But as others have pointed out the 21 and later machines really only rinse once, so for this reason alone I would get the KDP-20.

I have been using the electronic KDSS-20 in my kitchen for the past 8 years along with a 1987 WP DU8000 and while the KA is a cool machine it just can't match the top rack cleaning of the WP, the drying ability of the WP [ both are always used on air-dry ] and on top of that the KA often stinks from bits of food left in the sump and filter.

 

The KA will get moved to the museum and another identical WP installed in the kitchen at some point soon.

 

[bogo]

I would get the one with less rust.

 

[mattntn]

Thanks for the advice - I think I'm going with the 20 series. Plan to pick it up this weekend. Question: I have read to use hot water in the bottom first, but what else does anybody recommend as far as preventative maintenance before this thing gets installed for daily use? Looks to be in great shape, but has been in storage for a few years.

 

[washer111]

Preventative Maitnenace:

So, before you start, pour in some nice, hot water into the sump (preferably to the top of the filter). You may wish to add some cooking oil to help with lubrication. Let it set for around 30-60minutes, or more if the machine has sat around for years without usage.

 

You'll then want to hook the machine up and run through a Cancel/Drain cycle on the time, to ensure the machine can push the water out. Would also recommend installing a standard drain hose rather than a ribbed one at this point if you note drainage issues.

 

Following that, connect the machine to a hot water supply (at least 120ºF) and run the machine on a lightest cycle (I think Fast) with a little bit of detergent for the Main-Wash to wash away the Cooking Oil and any residual dirt (if any). During this time, I would perhaps put "Saran Wrap" on the front door and trip the door interlock switch so that you can see whether the machine is getting enough water and that the Wash-Arm Support isn't worn out badly. Below are two videos another member on the forum here ("chachp") did of his KDS-21 before and after the New Wash-Arm support.

While the machine runs, check diligently for leaks from the water intake, drain, pump, door and so on.

 

Before:



 

After:

 

[rp2813]

Give the wash arm a spin when you examine the machine.  If it spins freely, it's probably fine.  If it jitters its way around, you may have some repairs to consider.

 

I think you can simply listen to the jets of water hitting the door to assess wash arm rotation.  You can also open the door during a wash cycle, note the position of the wash arm, re-start the machine, then open the door again after a several seconds and check for movement.

 

If all goes well, you can start hunting down a set of stainless door and panel inserts next.

 

I'm not sure if a rinse aid dispenser came standard on Patricians of the 20 series.  It will at least have a blank plug where the dispenser filler goes, and one can be added without much trouble.  I believe the timer has the dispensing trigger built in and the wiring is already in place, so it would just be a matter of connecting the terminal on the dispenser to the lead. 

 

[chachp]

Stainless Panels?

If you decide you want stainless panels for your machine set up an eBay Followed Search for this part number. B-241677. There aren't any out there at the moment but this seller seems to have a stock pile of them because it seems every time they sell a set another gets posted. These will fit your machine. This is the set I put on the 20 and the 21.

I have seen them on some of the appliance repair websites in the past and they are generally around $60 I think. You may be able to get them cheaper from the eBay seller.

I will likely do a video of my 20 this weekend. To do them I used a very cheap, clear plastic shower curtain cut to size and some clear packing tape. It wasn't perfect but it gets the job done. I'd love to have a plexiglass door fit for my Kitchen Aids but I don't seem to have the patience to make something like that happen.

 

[mattntn]

Definitely would like the stainless panels since hopefully this will be around for awhile. Unless my partner throws me out...lol. He doesn't share my same love of old appliances, but bless him he's patient with only a little eye rolling and sighing here and there.
I set up the eBay search. Thanks again for all the advice. Plan to pick up tomorrow - my first KA!

 

[chachp]

KDS-20 Video

Well, I attempted to make a video of the KDS-20. I started with a Rinse and Hold which worked but it seemed to me that I would be moving more water. It seems to me the upper arm should have more force. The hose that powers the upper arm is in good condition, no cracks or splits. I am very happy with the performance of this machine so maybe it's just how this one works.

I recall someone saying one time that the Rinse and Hold uses less water so I attempted another video of a regular wash cycle. Well it went through the heating (that common complaint of these dishwashers) and when it started to wash it blew out my window. So I suspect I will get more movement in the Full Cycle but we'll just have to wait and see. Does anyone know if the cycles use different amounts of water?

I will attempt a wash cycle another time. Here is the Rinse and Hold.

 

[DADoES]

 
That does seem lethargic for the upper arm.  Hmmmm.

 

[toploader55]

As far as I know...

Yes, the Rinse and Hold and I'm pretty sure the first prewash (preheat) cycle is a shorter fill.

My 20 sounds like yours during the first prewash cycle. I never use rinse and hold as I want to challenge the cleaning ability everytime.

The upper wash arm was never designed to break any land speed records. But as long as you're getting the right amount of pressure and height of the water coming out of the jets, it's the cleaning and flushing which is what we're after.

Have you checked the upper wash arm feed tube on the bottom side ? My first 20 had issues cleaning the upper rack, so when I removed the feed tube for inspection it crumbled apart in my hand as the bottom was totally rotted.

The 20s are excellent machines only to be trumped by the KDS-18.

 

[mattntn]

Well I picked it up today.
Needs some TLC but overall in good shape. The was arm spins but a little wobbly. Would that mean I need a new support? How easy to find and install?

 

[chachp]

Can't wait to see pics!

Eddie, yes I checked the tube. When I got this machine, it had cracks on the bottom but I replaced it with one I had that is near perfect.

I really can't complain about the cleaning results. I will do another wash video with a regular wash cycle when I have a minute and see if it's any better.

 

[toploader55]

Wobbly Wash Arm

Yup.

Sounds like you'll need a new Wash Arm Support.