KDC 60A Dishwasher

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jakeseacrest

jakeseacrest

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 5, 2006
Messages
489
Location
Massachusetts
Ok...so in June I traded in my Tall Maytag Dishwasher for the Kitchen Aid portable knowing there was going to be a trade off. In the last few months, I've noted the following:
1. It's just not what I expected as far as loading. My plates only fit down the one row and they all have to tilt...they don't stand up. Maybe because they are cupped..who knows but it's a small annoyance. Bowls...my bowls are deep and only fit well where the plates should go...the pins are unforgiving on the right side of the rack so they can't go there.
2. Silverware and pots: My silverware comes out streaky most of the time. My Faberware pots also come out bluish looking. They usually need a scrubby pad to make them look new again. Actually, my Faberware stock pot and fry pan don't fit anywhere in the dishwasher so I've resorted to hand washing them also. Pans that cooked any starch has to be hand scrubbed...they come out looking the same!
3. Drying...incredible!
4. I have tried adding detergent to the open section to hit the 150 degree water in the first fill to see if it helps. Nope. I have used Finish and Wal Mart detergents so far. I'm going to try Cascade Complete this week.

I bought this dishwasher beacuse of the long times on the Maytag and every other dishwasher available, but I realize now that it was just a whole lot better overall! I think I'm going to throw in the towel and get a new one as soon as I can afford it but I really wanted a vintage dishwasher. Any suggestions out there?
 
Michael

It would probably be best if you posted a pic of the interior of the machine. I am usuing my Regency Portable right now. If you only have the Single HydroSweep on the bottom , these machines are only truely designed to be "Dishwashers". The only thing I put in the bottom rack are plates. This has totally redesigned my evening meals. You can not have anything concave blocking the upper rack. These single arm machines as you know spray from the bottom up. There fore a mixing bowl or a skillet blocking the spray from getting to the top rack will hamper your results. These machines can only be "Bob Loaded" if the lower rack is only plates or flat objects.
Here are 2 shots of this evening's load.

10-17-2008-18-35-9--toploader55.jpg
 
The Haze

In the first shot is the steam from catching her in the drain portion of the Prewash cycle. The second is the lower rack as you can see you can't block the wash arm from the bottom up. I hope this helps. I also wash my Pots and pans by hand when using this machine. Strictly a Dishwasher. My KDS 18 and the KDS 20 have two wash arms which I can randomly load the hell out of it.

10-17-2008-18-38-41--toploader55.jpg
 
I don't have a camera available, but it is the Custom model of the 20 series. It has 2 wash arms. Cycles are Heavy, Low Energy, Rinse and Hold. It definately sounds like it is going strong in there, but the loading and silver issue really bothers me.
 
Does the upper rack tilt ?

Have you cleaned the sump strainers ? If you got the machine used, the Regency I just showed you had 2 bad issues. The line strainer on the fill line was plugged, so she was not getting sufficient water pressure, and the sump strainer was packed with food fiber. If you have the 2 spay arms, it should shine your dishes like the top of the Chrysler building. Even with your plates tilting forward, that machine should clean well. Check the fill line sediment strainer. Almost sounds like your not getting enough water in the machine.
 
The cleaning is great, but with my dishes the loading sucks. I think if I had thinner ones(Corelle) it would probably be easier to load. I have Fiesta looking dishes and they are kinda beefy. I don't know what to do about the silver issue. I hate to have to use a scrubby on the pots, pans, and silverware for every load. Someone near me is selling a Maytag reverse rack but I'm not sure. I used one in 1992 for a few weeks at a friends house and I thought it was cool, but theirs had a water heat button. This machine doesn't have it. Decisions decisions?
 
Well, I hate to be a jerk, but TOLD YA SO!!! These 1-level dishwashers are not for everyone due to dish style, whether they expect to be able to wash mixing bowls, pots, pans, and other deep stuff in the same load. Now you understand why I have hated these (not nearly as much as a spin tube), but they are limiting and can waste a bunch of space if you don't have all the "right" materials that make up a good load. Even Nate admits he will never be able to BobLoad his KDS15 and fully understands its limits. Maybe a vintage or older Whirlpool or Kenmore UltraWash would be more to your liking. Also, be on the lookout for older Maytag stuff on Craigslist too. My experience with these KAs goes all the way back to when the 16 series was brand new. Neighbor had a KDS16, brand new. I was so "excited" cuz it was a KA. I loaded it up, careful about not blocking the top rack, put a pan used to boil rice in there, heavy soil cycle. Left rice kernals and lots of starch residue on the pan. Our Kenmore Rotorack would always clean something like this and so did the Waste King we had at the time. These KAs are ONLY great as a DISH washer and if you have the right type of dishes.
 
Thanks appnut...but my Kitchen Aid is 2 level wash. I live pretty close to New Bedford so I may call the person with the Kenmore. I had an Ultra Wash up until 2006. It is still running flawlessly at my sister's house.
 
You guys are 'trippin over the old KAid single-wash arm loading. Years before I ever cared about how I might load one, I used to have parties at my parents place and we would just cram that poor old thing full with TOTAL abandon, and everything always came out clean. In all the years I used that thing so recklessly, I never remember poor cleaning performance---- no matter what. (Recreationals notwithstanding, of course.)
 
Amen Steve!

I agree with you.
Before I even knew to pay attention to a "upper spray arm", etc....I loaded these to the max.
They never let me down.
I think a big secret to these babies, other than if there is a clogged strainer, or issues with the pump, YOU MUST HAVE HOT WATER! No warm baby washing temps. HOT WATER.
The KDS Versions could handle a little cooler water, but not the Customs, or Imperials.
If you are not having cleaning issues, but streaks. Your water is very hard. Jet Dry or some other rinse agent would help. I bet that is the only difference between your other dishwasher and this one.
Brent
 
Is it time for me to chime in now?

Well, It sure seems that we have some issues here with the 20 series Kitchen Aid.
Let's start by saying that NO machine can be everything to everybody and this is borne out by some of the comments here. People are either put off by the racking of the KA's or they are not. We had a KDS15 as our first machine and we learned very fast how to load it. Nothing wrong with piling cups and saucers and plates in to the top rack. Stuff always came out clean unless we didn't scrape the dishes at all.

When I got a KDSS16 and installed it, the little constant rinse sprayer helped alot with the crap on top of the cups and glasses. The racks were still the same and we knew how to get results.

From that machine, I got my mom the KDC21-d that you have seen here from time to time and it outcleaned anything she had before or since! That series has got to be the best damned cleaning machine Hobart ever designed.

But back to your problems..

Of course going from a tall tub to the standard height machine, you surrender capacity and versatility especially from a Maytag which always got high marks for the racking, ecept to me that stupid bobble head tower is ridiculous. My sister has that unit and while it cleans very well, it doesn't do a super job on the top rack and does take nearly 2 hours to do the dishes.

That being said, you also went from a machine with very long cycles to the KA which really doesn't wash as long as anything currently out there.

You DO have to make sure that you have enough water getting into the machine as Toploader Ed pointed out as well as clean filters. This applies to any machine.. none of them can wash effectively if they don't have enough water. That could also be your streaking and spotting problem.. poor rinse will leave soap residue on the dishes as well. Also, how hard is your water? Maybe it is a chemistry problem too which needs to be addressed.

I can tell you that while the detergents of today are great at eating foods, you can only expect so much to happen given the times of the cycles and the amount of soil left on the dishes.

As far as the starchy leftovers, I have found my Whirlpool sensor machine much better at cleaning those things off the pots, though not always 100% of the time than my KDS20 or the 21 I now use as my daily driver. The 21 is better by far than the twenty but really glued on pasta isn't coming off completely. The Whilpool does it better simply because the cycle runs at least 2x longer than the 21 or 20 did and that is with the high temp scour selected,otherwise it is no better than the Kitchenaids.

As they say, It is what it is.. your 20 has shorter wash times than just about anything out there. As far as the dishes not standing up in it, I have an axtra frame for the adjustable style racks you can have if you want to try that, or else try to get your hands on a complete rack from the Superba units.. flex-o dividers and adjustable up and down.

For the record, too.. ALL the 20's have heaters in them so hot water should not be a problem unless your setup is like mine.The hot water runs cold in the pipes between cycles and then you are washing with cooler water in the subsequent wash periods as well as the rinses. The heating element uses 700 watts during the wash period and may not be good enough to reheat the water to optimum temp. On the 20's the motor current draw causes the detergent bimetals to heat up and dispense the soaps for both cups. Because of this, you could rewire the machine thru a separate contactor to run both portions of the element throughout the cycles at 1400 watts which will heat the water to a higher temperature. Effectively giving you like 3 degrees a minute instead of 1.5 per minute.

You also have to check the washarm support and make sure that the little bushing inside the disharge opening isn't failing and blocking the water from going thru the lower arm. That could be your problem as well.

So I think you have some options to explore and I am sure we can all pitch in to help.

As far as those Tags on CL etc, I would probaly go with the reverse rack design for better or for worse since I dislike any machine wigh a center tower in it. And the one shown had the bobble head device as well.

Keep in touch and let me know if yoou need anything else
Steve
 
It is all about HOT WATER!

I still think the issue is that you are not using enough hot water! It is essential!
The reason for the "modern" dishwashers heating water, including the Hobart dishwasher back to the KDS-19 line was because the energy crises crunchers were asking you to turn back your hot water tanks, to conserve energy. Well, to not become a target of a poor performer, Hobart designed these dishwasher from the 19 on up, to heat the water in the first rinse, and the final rinse. And in theory of the design, the first rinse, and the last where water was being heated, did not include detergent. Well, anything in between is only up to your water heater temps where detergent is applied. Even the KDS models, with the sump water heater running during the wash and such, could never heat the water hot enough.
If you have your hot water tank to have hot water....you will have shorter showers using less hot water because you turn down the heat at the source, less running times on your dishwasher, because the water is already nice and hot, etc, etc.
For all of you newer dishwasher owners, try this. You will not only notice that your dishwasher will run shorter, your clothes will be cleaner, and you will keep your tap in your shower to the "cooler" side while showering. It all equals out in the long run.
Brent
 
Steve is absolutely correct in what he is saying. Trading in a tall tub anything for one of the older KAs requires certain sacrifices that may or may not be convenient. One of the things I noticed immediately when I switched from the 22 series Superba to the LG steam dishwasher was the absolutely incredible job the LG does on pots and pans. It's flawless, but, it heats water up to 140 - 160 degrees and holds it there to wash. Flatware, glasses, bowls, casseroles can load anywhere in the LG, even allowing large serving platters to be loaded on the upper rack. As Steve said, these KAs are what they are....rock solid tanks that will run for years and years, but they were never designed to tackle the kinds of soils that modern dishwashers can handle without a second thought.....their wash times are just too short, and they need lots and lots of hot water available at the tap. They are what they are, and we have to either love and accept them for that, or stick with a more modern design. Now, if you want a great vintage machine that can clean grease off and engine, see if you can find one of the older Waste King or Thermador steam dishwashers.....limited capacity for tall items and pans, but great cleaning, with 174 degree water temps.
 
Also...Andrew...

Is that what you are getting in your reading that Steve with all of his vast knowledge is saying that only the modern machines can handle your dirty dishes? And that older machine are a thing of the past?
After going back and reading Steve's post, I did not get that....
Brent
 
Jeebus!

Familiarity breeds results, and yes, you do give up some things by going vintage. Frequently, bottom racks were meant for plates and flat things only. Plates needed to be of the proper size to clear racks and wash-arms. If you stuck a bowl in the bottom, nothing had better go on the top. That sort of thing. (Or on the spin-tube, the top-rack is bulging with dishes, and there's a fork and a saucer in the bottom rack. It happens.)

That said, common threads for good results abound. Good detergent, measured properly and appropriate for your situation; boundless hot water, and good pressure so that the machine gets a full charge. Nothing but nothing performs well with insufficient water.

If equipped, make sure the machine's Jet Dry dispenser has rinse agent in it. Many machines rely on rinse agent to remove fine particles that get stuck up in glasses and other places if the sheeting action isn't there to help rid them.

Proper loading is a must (especially with impeller machines, eccentric machines like spin-tubes, or single wash-arm machines--put yourself in the water's place, like the old GE manual bajaespuma posted said--if you can't see how the water can reach it, how can it be cleaned?).

Even so, with increasingly enzymatic detergents that depend on lower water temperatures and longer cycle times to break-down and "soak off" food soils, some vintage machines are just screwed. For instance, the detergent in the spin-tube only gets nine minutes to make friends with the dishes before it's on to the rinses. For some detergents, that's simply not enough time. And, frankly, some machines simply assumed that you "washed the dishes before you washed the dishes," and that food soils were minimal to begin with.

In terms of starchy things being problematic and encountering streaky silverware, I have the same problems with my KitchenAid (KDS-15). I find that I can use a measuring cup (stainless steel) and measure Crisco, and the dishwasher will wash the cup, but a very fine, powdery patina of shortening remains, despite good, fresh detergent and copious amounts of hot water. (I control the water heater in our house, so I know damned well that it's not set at 120.) Using the Sani Cycle to incinerate all traces of anything helps immensely, but I try not to pull out the big guns more than I have to :-).

I did not have this problem back before detergent reformulation started happening in earnest, so I suspect that the detergent components intended to attack grease are enzymatic and don't get enough play-time in vintage dishwashers that relied on chlorinated, phosphated detergents to whoop ass with short wash durations. I suspect this will be an increasing problem for vintage dishwasher owners as the new, energy/water-efficient and interminable cycle dishwashers take hold, and detergents are further reformulated to maximize their effectiveness at or around 120 degrees F.

And, finally, yes, funky items may not fit. I can't fit gigantic pots in a D&M dishwasher because of the low-hanger middle wash arm, and I can't fit a frickin' 12" plate in the Dishmobile. Dish and pot/pan sizes have varied over the years.

It is possible that a modern machine will be your best daily driver. I will say, though, that I bought a brand-new, very nice, high-end Frigidaire dishwasher that scored very well in Consumer Reports, and found the following issues:<ul><li>On Ultimate Scrub (with a wash time of over 188 minutes, and with multiple heating delays, and full detergent cups), the dishwasher could not remove scrambled eggs from plastics, whether they were placed in the top or bottom racks.<li>Wash pressures are lower on newer machines, and loading the racks too tightly with dishes (even if it worked well in older mahcines) causes particulates to be deposited on the far-sides of dishes away from the spray arm.<li>The low water consumption and lack of a soft-food disposer caused retention of food particles in the sump (even with correct coarse filter cleaning, and even with a supposedly self-cleaning fine filter), resulting in icky fermentation of said particles, and the need to dismantle the filter assembly, sponge loose all the accumulated food, and run Rinse and Hold to flush the particles away. (This won my "f**king seriously??" vote.)</ul>In the end, it's all about your workflow and needs. I need a dishwasher that cleans fiercely and turns the dishes around quickly. You may need a dishwasher that can handle large or unusual items and give you longer wash times to dislodge more challenging soils.

It's the same reason that I don't do all of our laundry in the solid-tub Norge--I don't want to do a week's worth of laundry two T-shirts and two slacks at a time until it's all done--that's just how I roll ;-)
 
Nate

I think the "vintage" 70's era machines had many improvements to overcome washability challenges of earlier models. My folks had a early 70's GE that was quite effective. Then a belt driven Maytag and back to a Permatuf GE 1200. They all did a good job and did not have restrictive loading patterns.

With regard to the water pressure discussion in the new machines, it is interesting to note that the new variable speed wash system that Whirlpool offers in a number of new models can create pressure up to 100% greater than other tall tub models. This is controlled by the sensor & cycle selection. The volume of water has been reduced(up to 65%) dramatically compared to the vintage machines. That said, they do take longer.
 
I want to thank all of you for the advice. I think that the problem may lie in the shorter wash times vs my 2+ hour Maytag. Over the last few days I have been trying some new loading tricks and it seems to be working. As far as the pots I'll just scrubby them...it's a small price to pay for having my Kitchen Aid!
 
Leslie

Way good points, and good to hear your $0.02 :-)

I think the newest of the new machines are encouraging, and fare better than older designs adjusted to make-do with reduced water availability.

And God yes, the 70s machines were far easier to load. The '75 GE we had (though abominable in the cleaning department) was totally flexible about its loading. And, certainly, KAs and their ilk with double wash arms totally resolved the loading issues.
 
Brent...I don't see where either Steve or I said any such thing. Read it again. My comments are specific to the KitchenAids, specifically, as I mentioned in my posting, the Superba 22 I replaced with an LG steam dishwasher. Vintage GE and Thermador machines, even Whirlpool and Kenmore, have the cycle times and heating patterns to clean just as well as any moderm machine, though some lack filtration systems that cause yibbles to deposit on the tops of dishes on the upper racks. But you're not going to get stellar cleaning of pots and pans with a 7 minute main wash cycle, unless maybe you have your water heater turned up to 150+ degrees. And that's what most of the Superbas give you. The LG that I replaced my KA with cleans circles around it, but especially pots and pans...its washes flawlessly...but it also heats to 160 degrees in the pots and pans cycles. It also has twice the capacity of a vintage KitchenAid. The KA did a good enough job washing dishes, cups and glasses. But most of what I wash is mixed loads of dishes and pots, and for that, the KA didn't cut it with my water heater set to 130 degrees. Also had very limited capacity for larger pans, pots and platters, which is a problem for me. It would make a great second dishwasher maybe, but for a daily driver, I want something that washes pots and pans. And the LG does that just fine, and holds lots of them
 
Again,
It is about hot water.
What is the difference in energy consumption when you have your hot water tank set so low?
In showers for instance, you will have adjust the water, esp. in the winter more so to the hotter water to make it comfortable. Therefore, you are using more hot water and your LG running less in time.
I don't know what you are using as far as cleaning your clothes, but 130 degrees in hot water? Scary.
Concerning Dishwashers, it is the same thing. Your LG would run much less in time as far as not needing to heat the water, so you would then have savings if your hot water was hotter.
I have two dishwashers in my kitchen. As of now, a KDS - 18 and a KDS - 19. I can assure you I can run circles around your LG as far as cleaning loads, and their being finished, and ready to be put away. Let's just take one, the KDS - 18. Your LG can't hold any more, and clean any better, with efficiency. You have a dishwasher that is running for 2+ hours, with not only the motor running, but a heating element that is on constant. Not only is this a nuisance, it is not efficient. Not to mention, this type of dishwasher won't last very long. I don't care what is the vintage, or who makes it. Motor's and element will not take this type of work very long. Oh, and not to mention the price you paid for it in the first place.....
You said that you agree with Steve in saying that the Hobart design was tried and true. However, can't keep up with standards of today. This is what I am disagreeing with.
Brent
 

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