KDS-58 Power issue

[jkbff]

Alrighty, so given my large threads about finding a dishwasher and the one about racks I figure I better start a new thread..

I dunno if its cause of the -20 (-50 with windchill) weather we are having or what but ... The KDS won't stop blowing the breaker when its on soak/scrub and it pauses during prewash... I now have a dishwasher sitting full of soapy water that I can't drain because when I plug it back in it blows the breakers... Normally that wouldn't be a problem, but I live in a single family house that has been renovated to accommodate 3 separate living spaces. The outlet I use for the dishwasher belongs on a panel in the Land Lord's space..

So I dunno if she is using something she shouldn't be, but this wash is something I've done hundreds of times, on the same settings..

When I use an extension cord to plug into the other outlet in the area, it blows the GFCI as soon as the handle is latched. That outlet is on my panel. I need to drain this thing before I can do anything else... I'm gonna mess with it when I get home from work..

I started it last night, went to sleep, like usual, got up cause I was thirsty, noticed the light was on in the utility room (I forgot to shut it off), went out there, the lamp that I leave on thats on the same circuit was off, I went and messed with the light, it didn't turn on, I opened the dishwasher and it was full of water... I thought it was a fluke, plugged it into the other circuit, ran two rinse only cycles like I always do to warm the tub and dishes back up, everything seemed ok, I put prewash soap back in, put it on soak/scrub and walked away.. The circuit I plugged it into is the circuit my server is on, I heard the backup battery alarm go off so I knew the washer tripped again.. I reset the GFCI outlet, it kept tripping, so I lifted the handle and it didn't trip again.. As soon as I latched the handle again, it tripped... Reset it, said some .. colorful words for 4 AM and crawled back into bed.... I've yet to fall asleep so alas I'm posting here cause I can't stop thinking about it.

Any thoughts? My mind is telling me something when the heater element kicks on during the pause, but IDK? I don't see any leaks.. I have too much stuff stacked on it to move it out from its spot so I will have to move that stuff tonight..

If it ends up being something more than a fluke, the KDS is gonna go into my storage unit with the KDI until I have time to deal with it.. I've got a portable pot-scrubber that I've had my eye on for a while that I'll pick up..

I really wish there were more collectors around this area.. It sucks not having a repair shop...

 

[eronie]

power

sounds to me like the water heater element is shorted. try disconnecting both its leads taping them off and then try.

 

[stevet]

I second that!

Tony seems to have hit the nail on the head. Disconnect the two hot leads to the element. Wires are marked WH1 and WH2 and try it. If the breaker doesn't trip, you need to replace it. I have a few of them if that's the case. Just know that it will trip the breaker in any cycle that calls for the element to be energized to heat the water whether a soak delay, sani heat delay or temp maintenance.

If you have to, you can advance the timer manually by removing the control panel bezel and turning the timer with a screwdriver.

 

[barcoboy]

The water heater shouldn't come on as soon as you latch the handle... you would have to press the Soak and Scrub button first. You should be able to do a Cancel Drain without having the water heater come on at all. Sounds to me like something else is wrong... possibly timer or short somewhere else.

Depending on what your landlord has on the same circuit, that could be causing the breaker to trip when the heating element is on. I know my KDS-58 draws about 12.5 amps when the heater is on (checked with a clamp meter), so it wouldn't take much to go over 15 amps (assuming that is what the circuit and breaker is).

Have you tried a different extension cord? Maybe there is a problem with it that is causing your GFCI to trip immediately.

 

[combo52]

shorting out DW

It could be a shorted heater element, but there are about 20 other areas that could be causing the breaker to trip, the det dispenser bi-metals are a possible problem along with many other possibilities.

The DW also should not be on a ground fault breaker, on older appliances these can cause nuisance trips.

 

[jkbff]

If I am understanding the way the timer works, it is in the same position as it was when it lost power... as soon as I latch the handle, even though there is no current, the contacts all close except the cycle selector, so it somewhat makes sense that the breaker would trip..

that being said, I was half groggy at 4am, so I may have pushed soak n scrub after I pressed the handle.. but I was tired of hearing the UPS alarm go off and forgot where i had to reset the GFCI at (did I mention 4am and being groggy) so I reset the breaker didn't wanna mess with it again.

When I get home I'll try to drain it and see if it will finish the drain cycle..

But, that being said as soon as I hit cancel/drain, it will trip again because like I said, the timer is in the same position it was when it tripped.... ........ if I can get the timer to advance one click each time it trips it'll eventually get away from whatever is tripping it.

 

[jkbff]

I got it to drain and now I remember why I stopped using my EdgeStar Countertop model...

Anyways, I don't have time to fiddle with it until later in the week.. I was snooping around today and found a Crosley Portable with a wash tower and high temp wash/heated dry, and a built-in KA KUDI01TJBT0 ... Both the same price.. I hate wash towers but .. I dunno... lol.. If I got the KA I'd have to find a way to secure it.

The other option is a low end GE portable that is brand new for 650.. that one is .. a no go.. lol.

 

[jkbff]

I finally disconnected the power leads for the heating element.. So far it is running without issue...

I haven't been the same since my KDS stopped working, and I have missed it so terribly much...

I was out shopping for dishwashers cause my boss offered to buy me a new one for a bonus, and I just kept trying to compare everything to the KDS... I'd love a tall tub but I don't want something that takes 3.5 hrs to do what the kds does in 45 minutes.

Ugh! lol.

 

[jkbff]

I spoke too soon.. I went and did some other stuff and went back out to check on it and it tripped the GFCI again...

I did find out that the only fail safe to drain it is to open the latch, shut it and put it on rinse and hold then open the lever, let it reset and do cancel drain...

with that said, the only thing in my mind that makes sense is that I am having dispenser issues.. Because the dispenser is the only part bypassed in the rinse/hold..

I had a friend at an appliance store order me a Maytag MDB8959SBS . I messaged her on facebook and was complaining about my troubles and it just so happens she needs a new vacuum ! I'm gonna swap her a Maytag M1200 for the dishwasher.

Either way if anyone that reads this and knows how to fix the KDS' happens to pass through South Western North Dakota this year, please come help me fix this thing!

 

[kb0nes]

Jeff,

Have you tried running it on a circuit that isn't on the GFCI? It could be that the GFI you have is just trip happy and that you really don't have a problem.

A stationary permanently grounded appliance really has no need to be on a GFI. If it runs fine off the GFI I'd say all is normal with the machine.

 

[danemodsandy]

Phil:

That KDS-58 model number tells us this is a convertible/portable, meaning it's plug-in, not a permanently connected and grounded appliance.

So, unless I'm not understanding something here, a GFCI would be a prudent safety measure, don't you think?

 

[jkbff]

The dw was plugged into a circuit that has to be tripped in the landlord's quarters. I started plugging it into the GFCI one after I got tired of waiting two days for her to trip the circuit.

When I first got the machine I ran it on the GFCI circuit with no issues, after I deemed it safe to run, I plugged it into the circuit closer to the mop sink.

Last night after it tripped, I thought that maybe the GFCI was causing issues after I unhooked the element, so I drug it into another room and let it run and it threw the breaker.

I wonder if its not the dispenser bimetals like Combo52 mentioned, but I started with the element because it had started acting weird after I ran the SaniCycle a while ago.

 

[kb0nes]

I didn't realize that the machine is a portable. So yes the idea of a GFI isn't bad, but it could cause problems too.

Still first thing I'd try is running it in a non -GFI outlet. It would be wise to insure the grounded plug is in place and that the outlet is properly wired. But if the machine runs out a cycle it helps diagnose the magnitude of the problem. The problem still may be due to the GFI itself.

If the machine runs fine I would still investigate further by installing a meter in the ground line set to its milliamp range. Observe the meter while running a cycle, if leakage current spikes at some point then figure out what just energized in the circuit. Then you could isolate the culprit.

A good GFI will allow a few milliamps of leakage current but anything over about 10ma should trip right away. There are a lot of places in an old appliance where insulation may leak a little. The GFIs are set very sensitive to react quickly to a hair drier in the bathtub scenario. With a solid 3 wire line cord I wouldn't sweat the lack of a GFI personally. Just think of how many years we used portable dishwashers before GFIs existed...

 

[jkbff]

The original circuit the machine was plugged into was not gfci...

 

[barcoboy]

If it is one of the dispenser bimetals, it should trip in the same spot of the cycle. If you run a Normal cycle, the timer will send power to the Prewash dispenser bimetal immediately after the 3rd fill (final Prewash) is complete for 90 seconds, and then to the Wash dispenser bimetal immediately after the 4th fill is complete for 90 seconds. If it trips right away at one of these points, then take off the front panel and check the bimetals... you might have a broken or shorted wire.

I know that when I got my KDS-58, the o-rings in the dispenser had been leaking and dripping onto one of the bimetals, and the wire on one of the connectors was ready to fall off.

 

[beekeyknee]

If the outlet is properly wired, the cord is OK and is properly connected to the machine, grounding shouldn't be a problem. I understand that GFI's can be a lifesaver, but if John says they can cause problems on older appliances, I'm sure he would know.

Get a volt meter and touch the chassis and the sink faucet and see if there's any voltage to speak of.

 

[kb0nes]

I missed the part that it had initially tripped a breaker, I fixated on the GFI tripping.

So from that I'd have to assume that somewhere in the machine you have a hard short to ground. In theory this shouldn't be too hard to troubleshoot but it all depends on your comfort level and ability to test electrical circuits.

If you have a decent outlet strip with a 15A breaker in it you could use that to experiment to find the point in the cycle where the trouble hits. The outlet strip should trip before the panel breaker.

 

[combo52]

GFIs For Major Appliances Etc

I would consider any appliance with a three wire cord to be a permanently grounded appliance, yes GFIs do provide extra possibly life saving safety and when using portable electrical appliances in dangerous environments they are a great idea. They are also good for those of us who may be working on partly dissembled appliances while they are energized.

The problem comes in when using them on older appliances that use water, DWs, disposers, washing machines, under-counter ice machines, refrigerators and freezers, on the last two appliances I feel that a GFI is an especially bad idea unless you want to take the chance of coming home to a refrigerator that has been off for days.

On the KDS-58 that is tripping the breaker do check out the detergent dispenser bi-metals, these are live through most of the cycle and therefor can cause a short at any point in the cycle if they are getting wet.

John L.

 

[beekeyknee]

Just remember, the current flows through the bi-metal from one side to the other to make it bend. Don't apply 120 from an outlet to the bi-metal. Big bang.