KUDD23 saves the day

[johnb300m]

A week ago, my trusty Tahoe Maytag dw (with the accumulator) was mercilessly killed by some power outages. Fried the interface control board.
No replacements were available for at least 3 weeks, thanks to COVID supply chain issues.
So I hit up LetGo, and found this KUDD23 in quite good condition for $50.
The mechanical controls were appealing after my mishap, it was a super quality dw for the price.
AND it sure beats hand washing with this spiffy historic toy.

Some takeaways.
- It really reminds me of the 23 series my aunts had when I was a kid.
- it’s my first PowerClean based dw!
- mostly classic KichenAid, really solid build quality.
- compared to all my mondern dws, LOUUUD, just like I remember as a kid lol.
- it’s quite an adjustment back to a standard tub. No more accommodating tall things.
No idea how my plates would fit if this model had the China guard.
- essentially 5 cycle combos with Pots/Pans, Normal, Rinse Hold, and with wash water heating on or off.
- seems to do a really great job washing, even with a Platinum pod.
- only a few very fine yibbles left on top of things here n there due to no top spray.
- dries very well! Even with just energy saver dry. Never even used heat dry yet.
- I added a couple modern touches.
- wine glasses no longer fit. Not sure I trust them with all that power anyway.

I plan on keeping it till the big kitchen remodel in a year or so.
I am as I got some sound damping pads to quiet it a bit.

 

[appnut]

John, congratulations on finding a good used quality machine in good shape. Looks very nice.

 

[warmsecondrinse]

Congrats on the purchase!

It looks like some of the tines on the racks fold down. That was my favorite thing when I was a kid. My mother would scream, "That won't fit in the dishwasher! It's too big! You'll have to do it by hand!" And of course the foldable tines allowed the 'too big' item to fit just fine.

No matter how many times I showed her she never made the connection between adjusting the tines, moving the silverware rack, etc. and being able to fit in supposedly oversized items.

 

[askolover]

I could fit larger items in my MT DWC7602 better than in my KUDI23.  But wash results were very similar most of the time. 

 

[cam2s]

Fantastic find. Looks to be in great condition. It’s always fun to go back to the roar and splashy drama of a vintage dishwasher. Surprisingly I haven’t missed the extra space in my Bosch tall tub compared to the Super Racks in my Potscrubber III. The lower rack has take some getting used to but there seems to be plenty of room for tall items in the both racks. Do you plan of keeping this long term or is it just a placeholder?

Cameron

 

[dustin92]

Looks very similar to the kdc-21 (I think) that the guy I take care of has- It will clean just about anything. I believe the drying cycle still uses a fan (I know 21 and 22 series do) and the energy saving options turn off the heating element for that portion of the cycle. Definitely not a quiet machine by today's standards but should do the job for many years to come.

 

[johnb300m]

Hi all!
Thanks for the accolades.
The D23 is chugging along.
To answer a couple questions...

No, it does not have any folding tines. I think it’s near BOL.

The initial idea was to keep it till the MT was fixed or a kitchen remodel.
Whichever comes first.
But it’s so well running that I think I’ll keep it anyway, stored, as a good backup.
Since these modern machines are so prone to blowouts.

It currently has sound of 64db when running empty, at 5ft.
I have some foam to add to the access panel. And some adhesive sound deadening material to apply to the tub and door. I’m real curious to see how much I can take the roar.

 

[johnb300m]

PB TEST

I ran the fabled peanut butter glass test in the KUDD23 yesterday.
Results were mixed.
Parameters:
Normal wash. Water heating on.
Cascade platinum pod in main wash cup.

I have to say, I expected more.
This KUD cleans quite well for such short cycles on everything else. I guess the upper corners are lacking in that power a bit.

Results came in somewhere in the middle between my abysmal old 2015 GE and the 2017 KA304 I had in the past, that left only a single pb blob.
I wasn’t really expecting perfection. Considering I did all these tests on Normal.
I could perhaps try this test again on Pots$Pans.

 

[appnut]

I'd be curious if you used "Soak & Scrub/Pots & Pans" with water heating on. And see if it's near perfect.

Of course, if memory serves me correctly, that's supposed to be a 3-degergent series of washes.

 

[johnb300m]

23 series BobLoad(r) entry, & update

Hey all.
I had a pretty grimy and packed dish load recently and it was too good to not document.
Dirty then clean pics shown.
Things were not too impossible, there were no baked or burned on soils in this load. Just very dirty n goopy. Also with some flour and egg mess from breaded chicken.
Ran it on Pots/Pans with a Grove soap pac in the main cup (they do a good job not sudsing up) and Walmart powder in the prewash.
After inspecting, everything was spotless.
Only the knife had a yibble on it because it got trapped in the basket.
I’m continually impressed by how well things on the top rack with concave areas get clean, even without a top level sprayer. Only 1/10 washes will I find a stray rice or tiny lettuce piece up there.

One of the upgrades I did, was get a nice stainless upper arm to replace the certainly plebeian plastic arm the KUDD came with. It looks so much sexier. And in fact seems to have bought me an extra 1/4in of height in the lower rack.

 

[lakewebsterkid]

KUDD23

Nice!

 

[cam2s]

It’s a shame whirlpool cheapen these out, expect on the Superba models. Did the new wash arm have any benefits in performance, besides the extra clearance?

 

[johnb300m]

Hi Cam,
Sorry for the late reply, it's been an action-packed few weeks.

Regarding the added performance? No....nothing noticeable as far as cleaning ability with the new SS arm. Just the clearance.
However, I did notice in a few GoPro cam clips I took, that because the SS arm is .... well, steel, the jets are more defined in their pattern than the molded plastic arm jets were.

 

[johnb300m]

SureCleanWater Heating

In another recent cycle I ran, I threw in my Weber iGrill probe into the wash to track the temp heating.
The manual claimed that Energy Saver Wash OFF, would heat the water to "an appropriate" temp during the main wash. I wanted to know what "appropriate" was.

I ran a LIGHT wash, heated wash, and a heated dry cycle.
Sequence? MAIN WASH - PURGE - FINAL RINSE - HEATED BLOWDRY

In the attached chart, I called out some various segments.

The main wash only got up to about 134F before it ended the segment.
I question wether they meant for it to reach about 140F, but with variability in old thermistors, it's possible it's working just fine. Even modern thermistors can have a tolerance of +- a couple degrees.

The interesting observation was the hot water coming in on the first fill, then the temp plunging well below 110F due to the cold tub and dishes.
I WONDER if this first fill temp dip is what some modern machines use as part of the "load size" sensing....
Although, with new machines' fill capacity well below the 2.25gal of the KUD23 series, IDK how well it would work with their shallow fills, and if not-hot-enough water fills them, reducing the "chill" effect upon first start.

 

[cam2s]

Does that option actually extend or pause the wash until it hits the desired temperature, or does it just heat to whatever temperature it gets to. I know this is a Whirlpool influenced unit but I thought that these still used mostly KitchenAid cycle logic with the static water heating on the models that actually had thermostatically held periods.

I had a Point Voyager based KitchenAid ,and on the Express cycle it would use the temperature of the first till to determine if there would be a prewash or not. I suppose the logic was that it would be faster to drain and refill the water than to use the heater to heat the water to the desired temperature.

 

[Chetlaham]

Love this thread!

John, this is how I imagine your machine today. But with 2 water valves, a heated blower box, and 3 final rinses.

 

[Chetlaham]

SureTemp Water Heating

In another recent cycle I ran, I threw in my Weber iGrill probe into the wash to track the temp heating.
The manual claimed that Energy Saver Wash OFF, would heat the water to "an appropriate" temp during the main wash. I wanted to know what "appropriate" was.

I ran a LIGHT wash, heated wash, and a heated dry cycle.
Sequence? MAIN WASH - PURGE - FINAL RINSE - HEATED BLOWDRY

In the attached chart, I called out some various segments.

The main wash only got up to about 134F before it ended the segment.
I question wether they meant for it to reach about 140F, but with variability in old thermistors, it's possible it's working just fine. Even modern thermistors can have a tolerance of +- a couple degrees.

The interesting observation was the hot water coming in on the first fill, then the temp plunging well below 110F due to the cold tub and dishes.
I WONDER if this first fill temp dip is what some modern machines use as part of the "load size" sensing....
Although, with new machines' fill capacity well below the 2.25gal of the KUD23 series, IDK how well it would work with their shallow fills, and if not-hot-enough water fills them, reducing the "chill" effect upon first start.

View attachment 277477

Nice data! Do you have the time for this graph? And what is the incoming water temp into your dishwasher. I have been looking for data like this. I too have thought about a temp drop as a means of sensing and determining how long a cycle ought to be.

 

[johnb300m]

Love this thread!

John, this is how I imagine your machine today. But with 2 water valves, a heated blower box, and 3 final rinses.


View attachment 319127

Thanks but No thanks.
It works fine as it is.
You got rid of all the cycle options?????? No.

 

[Chetlaham]

Thanks but No thanks.
It works fine as it is.
You got rid of all the cycle options?????? No.

I only removed one cycle option, the energy saver wash. All that does is turn off the heater and bypass the main thermal hold. Pointless reduction in cleaning. Your graph shows that main wash heating is indeed needed even with a high water input temperature.

The heated on/off dry option remains.

The other is a start switch that was latter eliminated or simply never found in whirlpool versions of the Power Clean filter Module. Nothing that running the timer and closing the door can't do.

 

[johnb300m]

Does that option actually extend or pause the wash until it hits the desired temperature, or does it just heat to whatever temperature it gets to. I know this is a Whirlpool influenced unit but I thought that these still used mostly KitchenAid cycle logic with the static water heating on the models that actually had thermostatically held periods.

I had a Point Voyager based KitchenAid ,and on the Express cycle it would use the temperature of the first till to determine if there would be a prewash or not. I suppose the logic was that it would be faster to drain and refill the water than to use the heater to heat the water to the desired temperature.

Hi @cam2s , with this thread coming back to life, I forgot to reply to you. Sorry for the delay.

From what I can observe, the timer will pause advancing while still washing, and heat the water to some target temp. So that’s actually the new WP logic. It’s approx. 8min after the thermostat re-engages the timer motor.
This tells me that the thermostat must be set at less than 140F but it expects the temp to be reached in the remaining time of the main wash.
In the PreWash phases the heater will be on but there’s no target temp. They’re only 6min, and the 800w heater raises the water temp “about” 1deg. /min.

 

[DADoES]

In the PreWash phases the heater will be on but there’s no target temp. They’re only 6min, and the 800w heater raises the water temp “about” 1deg. /min.

That's how my DishDrawer functions per the one time I monitored the temperature during a cycle. The 650w heating element is energized through all the phases (except drains). The temp rises ~1°F/min. The main wash and final rinse have target temps and ended shortly after the target was reached. The time on them is variable in that regard. I don't know if there's a minimum time regards to higher supply temperature. Cooler supply temp increases cycle time for more "scouring" and perhaps better performance with enzyme detergents. The installation instructions I have recommend a hot supply connection (maximum 140°F) but I've seen another version that states COLD supply connection. It absolutely can run nicely on a cold supply. I normally set my water heater at 102°F unless I need a higher temp for a specific task ... which running the dishwasher doesn't qualify.

Signed: Goofy Glenn

 

[Chetlaham]

Hi @cam2s , with this thread coming back to life, I forgot to reply to you. Sorry for the delay.

From what I can observe, the timer will pause advancing while still washing, and heat the water to some target temp. So that’s actually the new WP logic. It’s approx. 8min after the thermostat re-engages the timer motor.
This tells me that the thermostat must be set at less than 140F but it expects the temp to be reached in the remaining time of the main wash.
In the PreWash phases the heater will be on but there’s no target temp. They’re only 6min, and the 800w heater raises the water temp “about” 1deg. /min.

Here is the tech sheet to the KUDD230B0.

4 minutes after the motor engages for re circulation in the main wash the machine does a thermal hold and once finished then goes on to wash for 8 minutes.

I very much dislike how there is no water heating in the final rinse. Whirlpool latter added a thermal hold to the final rinse.

 

[Chetlaham]

That's how my DishDrawer functions per the one time I monitored the temperature during a cycle. The 650w heating element is energized through all the phases (except drains). The temp rises ~1°F/min. The main wash and final rinse have target temps and ended shortly after the target was reached. The time on them is variable in that regard. I don't know if there's a minimum time regards to higher supply temperature. Cooler supply temp increases cycle time for more "scouring" and perhaps better performance with enzyme detergents. The installation instructions I have recommend a hot supply connection (maximum 140°F) but I've seen another version that states COLD supply connection. It absolutely can run nicely on a cold supply. I normally set my water heater at 102°F unless I need a higher temp for a specific task ... which running the dishwasher doesn't qualify.

Signed: Goofy Glenn

Personally I think that every dishwasher should have a long main wash time regardless. There are too many Maytag, Whirlpool and Kitchen-Aid dishwashers (not excluding other makes either) that would default to an 8, 10 or 12 minute main wash if the thermal hold was instantly satisfied. Or if the machine was built without the feature. In fact the last EM Whirlpool Power Clean Filter Module Dishwashers would default to only a 10 minute main wash.

Me, I think all vintage mechanisms should default to at least a 20-30 minute main wash regardless of the inlet temperature and just cap the wash water to some level like 150*F - 180*F. In fact by doing so you could eliminate the thermal hold altogether because with wash time will be long enough to reach a minimum level at some point .

If curious, here a neat calculator you can play with in regards to time, water, heat input, heat output and water temps:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/water-heating


Of course, be happy that your machine has thermal holds. There is one BOL model for example, the Kitchen-Aid KUDS22CT0 that not only lacks thermal holds but has a main wash time of only 8 1/2 minutes. The heater can also be turned off in the main wash via an energy saver push-button. I don't remember the control panel exactly, but I think it might even be labelled "energy saver dry" not giving away the full details that it also cuts the main wash and pre-wash heat. There is no heating in the rinse at all regardless.


This machine appears to rely exclusively on very hot water, even having 3 purges. The cycle sequence is:

Fill

wash 7 minutes

Drain

Purge sequence (fill, recirculate, drain)

Fill

wash 6 minutes

Drain

Purge sequence (fill, recirculate, drain)

Fill

Main wash 8 1/2 minutes

Drain

Purge sequence (fill, recirculate, drain)

Rinse 3 1/2 minutes

Drain 1 1/2 minutes

Pause

Drain 30 seconds

Times where the machine is filling and recirculating at the same time (usually 30 seconds) are not taken into account time wise above, wash and rinse times are based from the end of fill to the point the motor stops for draining.


Not very shocking for say a machine built in the 60s or even the 70s, but this model was built in the late 80s after Whirlpool took over Kitchen-Aid. It is fascinating, and I am guessing how Whirlpool envisions a normal cycle without scouring for Pots and Pans.

Personally I think it is very unfair to pull such thing off. This machine is post early 80s, so the probability of a 120*F inlet is a realistic anticipation. There should be no option to remove the water heating, and the main wash time should have been at least 20 minutes in duration. I hate when manufacturers deliberately design half baked cycles on BOL machines in hopes of getting consumers to buy a high end model that offers a realistic cycle at the expense of ludicrous complexity that could otherwise be achieved with a single 6 switch single motor timer. It is either force the consumer to pre-rinse or have the machine break down early with reasonable repair being a low probability.

 

[johnb300m]

Personally I think that every dishwasher should have a long main wash time regardless. There are too many Maytag, Whirlpool and Kitchen-Aid dishwashers (not excluding other makes either) that would default to an 8, 10 or 12 minute main wash if the thermal hold was instantly satisfied. Or if the machine was built without the feature. In fact the last EM Whirlpool Power Clean Filter Module Dishwashers would default to only a 10 minute main wash.

Me, I think all vintage mechanisms should default to at least a 20-30 minute main wash regardless of the inlet temperature and just cap the wash water to some level like 150*F - 180*F. In fact by doing so you could eliminate the thermal hold altogether because with wash time will be long enough to reach a minimum level at some point .

If curious, here a neat calculator you can play with in regards to time, water, heat input, heat output and water temps:

https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/water-heating


Of course, be happy that your machine has thermal holds. There is one BOL model for example, the Kitchen-Aid KUDS22CT0 that not only lacks thermal holds but has a main wash time of only 8 1/2 minutes. The heater can also be turned off in the main wash via an energy saver push-button. I don't remember the control panel exactly, but I think it might even be labelled "energy saver dry" not giving away the full details that it also cuts the main wash and pre-wash heat. There is no heating in the rinse at all regardless.


This machine appears to rely exclusively on very hot water, even having 3 purges. The cycle sequence is:

Fill

wash 7 minutes

Drain

Purge sequence (fill, recirculate, drain)

Fill

wash 6 minutes

Drain

Purge sequence (fill, recirculate, drain)

Fill

Main wash 8 1/2 minutes

Drain

Purge sequence (fill, recirculate, drain)

Rinse 3 1/2 minutes

Drain 1 1/2 minutes

Pause

Drain 30 seconds

Times where the machine is filling and recirculating at the same time (usually 30 seconds) are not taken into account time wise above, wash and rinse times are based from the end of fill to the point the motor stops for draining.


Not very shocking for say a machine built in the 60s or even the 70s, but this model was built in the late 80s after Whirlpool took over Kitchen-Aid. It is fascinating, and I am guessing how Whirlpool envisions a normal cycle without scouring for Pots and Pans.

Personally I think it is very unfair to pull such thing off. This machine is post early 80s, so the probability of a 120*F inlet is a realistic anticipation. There should be no option to remove the water heating, and the main wash time should have been at least 20 minutes in duration. I hate when manufacturers deliberately design half baked cycles on BOL machines in hopes of getting consumers to buy a high end model that offers a realistic cycle at the expense of ludicrous complexity that could otherwise be achieved with a single 6 switch single motor timer. It is either force the consumer to pre-rinse or have the machine break down early with reasonable repair being a low probability.

That's a real neat calculator, and it's calculations seem to match the observed behavior of the D23's main wash thermal hold and my tap temp.

One of the reasons I got the KUDS25 a few years ago, besides a fun restore and getting a more economical and sensor-run machine again, is the WP heated final rinse. The KUDD23 was not performing well at first with coffee and tea stains in my mugs. But the KUDS25 did much better.
However, I've found that Seventh Generation powder has had really good bleaching action in the cycle sequence of the '23.

I find it hilarious you want to lengthen the main wash time, when you and others are literally crying in you cheerios about lOnG cYcLe tImEssssSSSssss.

I'm not sure you're familar with the model lines of the KUD-23 series. The lower lines had options for Energy Saver Wash On or Off. Many other models did not have an option to turn water heating off. They already had it ON by default, even on Light/China.
But that's what I LIKE about this D-23 series. I can control heating on or off.
I'll turn water heating off when I"m doing China loads, or loads of plastics, like coffee machine parts, refrigerator drawers etc.
Then I can turn it on for normal dishes and cookware.
You want to run main wash at 150 - 180F? That's insane and crazy expensive electricity if it's not needed. 180 is way way too hot for residential tableware and residential machines.
150-155F is good enough for home sanitizing.

If anything, Whirlpool consolidated Hobart/KA's cycle sequences to have equally good performance.
Prior to Whirlpool, Hobart machines had oddly different cycle times and fill rates for the same cycle names from Custom up to Supurba.
So if anyone is guilty of making machines "wash less good" per tier, it was Hobart.