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mrb627

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OK. I think most of us have our ideas and opinions on washing machine technology. Let's talk a little bit about ideas for machine improvements. How can we build a better mousetrap?

I have a few ideas, I'll append them independently of this header post.

Malcolm
 
FL + 120v + Water Heating

I have been thinking about what it takes to heat water in a 120v FL washing machine. Typically, water heating is managed through an immersed calrod heating unit ~1000w. While this is generally a very dependable way of heating water. Are there ways that water can be heated more quickly and efficiently?

Well, microwave energy can heat water at a fairly fast pace, but in a washing machine would be difficult to deploy safely.

What about induction? Can induction be used to energize the inner wash tub and heat the water quickly? Perhaps install the induction source at the 1 o'clock position in the outer tub or in the rear bulk head. Although, typical stainless steel doesn't react to the magnetic energy of the induction head, we could use baffles of a different material or a couple of outer bands around the tub to distribute the heat around the circumference of the drum.

Could we achieve near boiling temperatures in a short period of time with this technology?

What are your thoughts?

Malcolm
 
The induction heating is not a bad idea, but you need a power source to output current in the KHz range in order to achieve this. Given the amount of current that is required, and what the power supply has to do in order to get the necessary current, in the KHz range, and the voltage be high enough, I don't think 120V is enough. 220V circuits are a better option for this.
 
I don't think you can get more efficient than an immersed heating coil. The full power draw goes toward heating the water.

What I'd like to know is, why are the 120V heaters limited to 1000W or so? A 15A circuit can supply 1800W. The electronics do use some power, and so does the motor. But the firmware could guarantee that the larger motor loads (e.g. spin) don't occur when the heater is energized.
 
From my experience with consumer FL machines, the water is heated at some point when the cylinder tumbles the clothes. The computer board uses little current, but the motor control board uses the next to most current compared to the heater. Some current has to be reserved for the motor control board, as what it supplies the motor is not in the same form as what comes directly from the outlet. The other thing is that even though most 120V circuits are 15A, it's a good idea for the FLA of the machine to be under 15A. Remember, wires get hot.
 
The other important thing is how or what will the water be heated in? Another thing is that what ever is used has to be metal, either made of iron or something to which is magnetic and the eddy currents can efficiently travel. The metal being heated can't touch the induction coil. You also have to have a cooling method for the induction coil, so that it does not over heat.

With the right device the above induction heater might work. Does anyone have a current rating for it?
 
The induction hotplate is efficient in comparison to regular gas and electric burners, which lose much of their heat to the room. But an induction system couldn't improve upon a simple coil immersed in the water, like in a washing machine.

I have my Miele W4840 plugged into a Kill-A-Watt box, so I can see how many watts it's drawing. Tumbling isn't all that much, like under 200 watts for most loads. That's the total for all components of the machine, when the heater is off.

Wires on a 15A circuit should be able to carry 15A without getting hot.

Incidentally, I think the heater rating is based on a 120V supply. If your supply voltage is lower, as it is in some places, the heater is going to consume fewer watts. That means it puts out less heat, and heats the water more slowly.
 
Usually no more than 80% of total watts (1400w for a 15amp and 1920w for 20amp circuts).

Modern/newer wiring long as it is properly installed might be able to carry >80% loads for along time and repeatedly, but housing stock (and common sense for that matter), in the United States varies.

In NYS for example you still have many, many homes and apartments with fuse boxes and barely 100amp electrical service. Even then it is common to find only a handful of outlets all on the same circut.

So if the washer or another electrical appliance is pulling near or full power, to avoid tripping the circut or blowing a fuse nothing else *should* be running at that time.

Methinks much as with everything else these days, manufacturers build to one set of specs, rather than trying to allow for differences.

Case in point older electric dryers that could be wired for either 220v or 120v have mostly long disappeared, IIRC.

As for heating water in a washing machine, most American sold units probably are working under the design that unlike models sold elsewhere in the world, these units are only going to "boost" cold or warm tap water to hot. This suits the common 120v/15amp or 20amp service found in most domestic settings.

Yes, I know persons go on about how many laundry rooms or such have a "dryer" electrical circut for 220v service, but that is not totally common. Indeed Miele tried for ages to sell Americans washers and dryers using that line of thought, and look where it got them.

Then we must consider cost. For those with acess, natural gas or oil are a much cheaper way to supply energy for heating purposes. Here again this is where the United States differs from say Europe and the UK.

On the other side of the pond coal, wood,peat are pretty much all the natural resources for generating heat. Well aside from oil and natural gas coming out of the North Sea region. Combines to make electrical power the common source for heating, at least as far as laundry and dishwashing appliances are concerned.

Even at rates that would make most Americans cringe, one would wager EU/UK laundry and dishwashing appliances are more efficient because they run on 220V (or in some "old" cases 400v) service.

Long as 120v service remains the common electircal supply in the USA, there are limits to heating capacity.

While it is possible to heat even the puny amounts of water used by most American front loaders on 120v service. It is going to take a very long time. With today's modern detergents the wash will probably be mostly clean long before that unit reaches 120F from 85F. In which case the unit will still leave the heating portion of the cycle and commence with the wash. All the while exposing laundry to un-necessary wear by long wash times.
 
My old Philips H-axis toploader was built to work on a 10 Amp 220V circuit. What they did to maximize the heating efficiency was they let the machine only tumble once in a while and during that short tumble the heating element was turned off. As soon as the drum stood still the heating element was turned on again. If that was done in an American frontloader a machine on a 15 Amp circuit could have a 1400 Watts heating element.
 
IIRC Early Speed Queen/Amana Front Loading Washers

Sold for about a hot minute on the USA market before some problem took them away, did just that. Owner's manual stated that during the heating phase the washer drum would only tumble intermittently until set temp was reached.

IIRC, this still was more of a "boosted" hot than heating cold water to hot.
 
SQ

There is a SQ FL that still does just that. It heats until the water hits 140 then continues with the wash cycle.

Malcolm
 
Considering that 4 to 5 gallons (added extra to saturation of cotton) is not needed to wash 6-7kg of laundry hotter water and better results will be achieved with a much lower level.

Generally find cotton takes 1 litre per kilo to saturate. Then all one would need is a token 10litres (2 gallons at most) of water hidden in the machine below the door to carry the detegenty water and be heated much quicker to boiling and then be cascaded invisibly through the fabric.

This is easily done using a close fitting inner tub to outer tub, and water lifting paddles to shower laundry with the hotter wash solution - we have it here!

Im sure also given our longer Euro wash times even better results will be attainable. Something the American manufacturers need to latch on to in order to become as advanced as we are.

Cannot remember the last time I used a pre wash or pre treated stains and especially now I have a new Beko 1600rpm machine that uses 45 litres give or take a few litres of water to wash and rinse 6kg of cotton.
Never had results so good either proving less water really is more.

Cant see why a 1400w heater with really low level could not achieve temperatures of 60-90 degrees C in the space of a 100 minute wash portion especially if it was to boost incoming hot water.

We had shorter wash times in the 1980s and prior but we soon got used to long washes and im sure America will do rather rapidly when they see the superb results we get :) :)
 
i think they should make a washer that can sense the fabric,the soil, what options to use and the hardness of water to give xelent reslts sort of like the blomberg smartouch dishwasher or as it sells over here beko one touch dishwasher.
 
Well one, we already have washers with steam = heating element used to create the steam

and two, would this mean that manufacturers would have to use metal outter tubs, for fear of the plastic tub would melt near the heating element

even the older dishwashers, with plastic tubs, have a huge, almost electric oven style/size, operated from 110 volts, although it did pause the timer while it heated.....

it not like your gonna use this heated option on every load, consider it as a pot/pans cycle for your dirtiest, greasiest loads
 
While I am all for solving the worlds problems with technology and ingenuity. I wonder if we might be over-complicating and otherwise fairly simple situation. The number 1 complaint that most people have with the newer washers is they they're not as durable as the 20 year old one they're replacing. I think part of this is all the sensors and other electronics that go into the newer washers. 20 years ago, washers were very simple, now, they're a small computer. For all the technology, I am not sure my clothes get any cleaner.

 
ADDING HEAT TO WASH WATER

The cheapest way to heat water water in a washer using electricity is an immersion heating element, except the possibility of using a heat pump, which is now being done more and more for a homes main water heater. It is not less expensive to run or more effencent to use 240 volts as opposed to using 120 power to run any type of household appliances. If it was even 2% cheaper to run an air-conditioner on 240 volts there would be a lot more push to run all large appliances on 240, but actually more and more ACs are going to 120 operation as they are becoming more efficient. The advantage of using 240 volts as opposed to using 120 is that it makes the appliance a little cheaper to manufacture and its much cheaper to run circuits for 240 volt appliances because the power supply wire can be 1/2 the size witch saves a lot of copper and aluminum.
 
Quote: But actually more and more A/Cs are going to 120 operation as they are becoming more efficient.

This is because more and more BTUs can be moved with less energy as efficency increases. So the maximum size /capacity of an A/C can go up and up on a standard 120v 15/20a circuit. At one time 12,000 BTU/h was about the biggest you could squeeze out of 120v. (Cools three to four rooms). Now with higher EERs exceeding 10.0 (Energy Efficiency Ratios are BTUs of heat moved per watt of electiricty) the capacities avaialable on 110v go up and up. For those of us with ancient wiring and without 220v service this is a huge blessing!

Another benefit to 220v is simply pushing more watts through the same gauge(thickness) of wire. (This is the corollary of 'same watts through less copper')

110v does have its benefits; if one does anything stupid...er mindless, or dangerous or has an accident with electricity, one gets to live to perhaps do it again!

[this post was last edited: 10/28/2010-23:00]
 

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