Laundry detergents – Regular or H.E.?? Also, suggestions to keep whites, white?

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

revvinkevin

Well-known member
Platinum Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Messages
5,592
Location
La-La Land
I have noticed in some of these threads comments about detergents, regular vs. H.E. - TLer vs. FLer, or "ONLY use H.E. in FL machines".
OK, why? What's the difference between H.E. detergents and the others, other then low sudsing?
I have a 10 year old FL machine and have been using a low sudsing detergent, but it's not specifically labeled H.E. (or I don't think so, need to go look).

Whites. I have noticed that >over time< the whites have tended to loose their "bright white" appearance, becoming a bit dingy. Is it possible to recover from being dingy (now be careful, LOL), or is it too little too late? I do wash in hot and use liquid bleach (dispensed in the first rinse)…. any suggestions??

Thanks to all in advance!!!
 
HE detergents are formulated to work in lower amounts of water vs. volume of clothes being washed. Proper ratio of ingredients to hold larger amounts of soil in suspension in smaller amounts of water. And ingredients to help prevent dye transfer if bleeding occurs.
 
Kevin, I use Seaers Stain Fighter powdered detergent and have even before I got my Frigidaire that's like yours, which I got last fall. I've been very pleased with the results. For whites I crank the water heater up to 150, run water from a nearby tap to get hot water close to machine, and also add a scoop or two of oxyclean to the whites. I've also heard that Tide HE is very good for whites, but it's too expensive for me and Tide makes me itch. I also use Fab powder since it does have HE instructions ont he box, even though it isn't specifically formulated for HE machines.
 
Hi Kevin. Here is my formula for whites:

Start washer filling with HOT water
Add Clorox bleach and also bluing according to directions.
After tub fills, let it agitate a minute, then add clothes
and detergent.
If you have a front loader, start washer filling with HOT water, add Clorox and bluing so that it is mixed up in the water, then add clothes and detergent.

I wash and iron communion linens and vestments for my parish (Episcopal) and these are all whites. When whites get old, they tend to yellow. My treatment helps improve them.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Ross

[email protected]
 
IMHO...

HE is marketing hype.

There are instances when it is necessary, such as in a toploading HE machine that has a recirculating spray system throughout the wash. There you need a suds supressant to minimalize suds being produced when the wash water is whipped through the recirculating pump. HE may also be prescribed if you have soft water.

I haven't had any bad results or progressively dingy clothes using regular detergents in a lesser amount in frontloaders in the 13 years I have used them at home.

I think dingy clothes come from not getting the concentration right and poor rinsing. Since frontloading HE washers use so litle water, I think you should always use the extra rinse option.

I believe that HE detergents are regular detergents with an anti-sudsing agent added. To me, that means that the recommended dosage on the HE bottle/box is way too much for the amount of water in a frontloader. I believe this also leads to the pin holes that show up in cottons.

Now if you do a search on HE detergents on this website and others, you will find that there are people who will vehemently disagree with this position. Owning 2 laundromats with mostly frontloading washers and personally having frontloaders at home for 13 years, my experience tells me otherwise.

I believe, for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows . . .
 
The most effective ingredient I've found for getting clean clothes in any kind of washer is STPP. If it's legal in your area, it's well worth the time and effort to locate some and add it to whatever detergent you're using.

Currently I'm washing most things in my HE front loader (Neptune 7500) with a combination of STPP and grated Ivory bar soap. It works great and there is no softener needed. Haven't had any problem with dingy whites, either. I use warm or hot wash water with a warm or hot 1st rinse (possible with the Neptune 7500 if stain cycle is selected).

That said, an HE detergent should include either less sudsing surfactant or a suds supressant. Most also include enzymes, soil anti-redeposition agents, dye transfer inhibitor. Those are good things. Less good are optical brighteners, fragrance. Powders will include sodium carbonate and sodium silicate for water softening and washer protection. STPP is much better than sodium carbonate.
 
Thank you for all your suggestions!!!!

I will have to try these and see how they do!!

Sudamaster... What is STPP? Is that the brand name?

If anyone else has other suggestions, please suggest away!!

Thanks again to all!!!
Kevin
 
Hey Kevin

I have a few suggestions to keep whites white. If clothes are really dingy or starting to yellow, you can soak whites overnight in your TL washer with hot water, Tide/w bleach powder,borax and Clorox or BIZ dry bleach. The following morning, if you have a front load unit, I would suggest a long wash on the sanitary cycle, mine runs 2 hrs on my LG. Always use powder detergent. I find powder is much more effective on whites than liquid. I use liquid usually on colors. I've tried many powders and prefer Tide/w Bleach. Just make sure if you like Tide with Bleach powder, don't use liquid clorine bleach because the LCR does not work well with oxygen based bleaches in detergents. Lastly, try 20 Mule Team Borax. It really works well when combined with detergent and dry bleach..
Good Luck!
Shane
 
Here's what I've been doing (an adaptation on a recipe provided from retromom on another thread, and adapted to my soft water conditions...)

My machine's Super Wash cycle has a 4-min. presoak. It disgorges about three quarters of the water, than refills, and does a 14-minute wash, rinses, and spins.

I set the water level to small, temperature to hot. I pour in half a cup of powdered dishwasher detergent (that contains chlorine bleach), two-thirds of a scoop of booster (I use store-brand Oxi-Clean powder or Snowy), and whatever measure of detergent you ordinarily use (I like Tide With Bleach, Gain With Bleach, or Wisk for whites).....start the machine, let it fill and agitate for half a minute or so. Make sure everything's at least soaking....if necessary, reset water level to medium....then leave it alone for 15-30 minutes.

After soaking, reset to large, and let the machine continue with the prewash. After the machine spits out the soak water, tops off with the hot water and advances into wash mode, wait about five minutes, toss in about a half-cup to one cup of liquid chlorine bleach, and let it finish washing and rinsing.

Add one capful of "Downy for Whitening" to the final rinse.

If socks, towels, etc. are especially filthy going in, I increase the amount of the dishwasher powder or the oxygen booster, not the detergent.

This has been working really well for me, personally.
 
Kevin,

STPP is Sodium TriPolyPhosphate. It's also known as a "complex phosphate". It's the main cleaning ingredient in vintage laundry detergents, but it was gradually phased out so that by the mid-90's no major US laundry detergent contains any of it. Many Mexican detergents still contain it.

STPP performs several basic laundry detergent functions:

Water softener - STPP is a superior water softener. Unlike the most common laundry detergent water softener, Sodium Carbonate (washing soda), STPP does not form a solid precipitate with hard water minerals. This means it leaves the wash cleaner without a lint like coating.

Break - STPP is a superior "break", which means that it dislodges soils from fabrics.

Builder - STPP helps to "build" the alkalinity of the wash water, which in turn helps to turn fats and oils into a form of soap so that they are more easily washed away.

Soil anti-redeposition agent - in concert with its ability to soften water without forming a precipitate, STPP is a superior agent for keeping soil that is released from fabrics in solution so that it can be rinsed away.

In modern phosphate-free detergents, these functions of STPP are replaced by various other chemicals, usually less effectively. Sodium carbonate acts as an inferior water softener and a harsher builder. Enzymes act as a break, but only for organic soiling (they don't do much for mineral based soiling). Carboxymethyl cellulose is used as a anti-oil redeposition agent, but doesn't seem to work as well as STPP.

I use grated Ivory bar soap for several reasons:

1) Controlled sudsing. I can control the amount of sudsing better by adding just enough soap to create a low level of suds. I add it separately from the STPP.

2) Softer results. Bath towels washed in the STPP/Soap combination are not exposed to harsh washing soda, and they come out soft and absorbant without needing fabric softener.

3) Non-toxicity. Both STPP and Ivory soap are rather non-toxic, unlike many modern laundry detergent components. STPP is a common food additive, for example. And there's no added optical brighteners (nasty stuff) or perfumes.
 
I can well understand the idea that HE detergents are a lot of hype, because I know that manufacturers will stop at nothing to make a buck...

But aren't high sudsing products a lot of hype also? What I mean is that unless you are washing with soap, the quantity of suds you see with any synthetic detergent has no correlation to cleaning ability. That was just all marketing hype created by P&G when they introduced Tide in 1946. At the time everyone used soap and once the suds disappeared, you knew the soap's cleaning ability was spent. So, their promise of "Oceans of Suds" with Tide gave housewives of the period assurance of tide's cleaning ability. Of course all manufacturers followed suit.

What has always shocked me is how difficult it is to change the culture. When the ultra powders were introduced in the early 90's, most (with the exception of Dash, All, Surf, Rinso)were all low sudsing products. That didn't last long. I asked each of the manufacturers why they went back to high sudsing powders and every one reported that consumers complained that the low suds products were not as effective because they saw few or no suds. Anyone who has ever owned a GE filter flo knows how notorious they were for oversudsing because of the constantly recirculating water.

My point (and I do have one..) is simply that suds in and of themselves are unnecessary for good cleaning - Fresh Start and Fab powders are excellent examples of that.

It takes time to change culture - if all manufacturers offered only low or controlled sudsing products, everyone would be reconditioned - much like we were conditioned to believe we needed all those suds in the first place..... and we certainly not need all those expensive HE detergents. Talk about creating an artificial need!!!!! We are so sophisticated in so many ways, yet so immovable in others...

Just my $.02
 
Homemakers at the time that "syndets" were introduced were used to washing with soap. Understanding the need for "heaping suds" when using soap, P&G and other syndet manufacturers knew they had to have heaping suds also or the homemakers would not believe cleaning was taking place.
 
For whites (and all extremely dirty loads): "Viva", "Blanca Nieves" or "1-2-3". (All contain phosphates.)
For colored: "Paloma" or "Fab"(low-sudsing).

I agree with Peter,'Suds, and Angus. Great commentary!

-My two shekels.
 
As Launderess has pointed out in the past, natural soap has water softening abilities. The problem is that it tends to form a scummy precipitate as it takes hard water minerals up. So washing soda has traditionally been added to spare the soap, but the problem is that washing soda or sodium carbonate turns into calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate, or limestone/dolomite, when it takes up hard water minerals. So unless you use a non-precipitating water softener, such as STPP or Zeolites, you get to choose between scum and cement buildup on your fabrics or washer internal parts.

Sudsing is just a sign of surfactant activity, although various surfactants produce varying levels/qualites of suds and foam. Surfactants basically are bipolar molecules that act to reduce surface tension, and that action is necessary to help break up oily/greasy soils from fabrics and hold them in suspension. But all you really need is a slight surplus of surfactant to do the job, and that is signalled by a light layer of suds in the wash water.

You may notice that often the suds start out low at the beginning of a wash, but increase as the wash cycle continues. That can be for several reasons, but I think the main reasons are slow dissolving detergent or soap, and the fact that the builder in the detergent or booster tends to saponify oily/greasy soils. Saponify means to turn into soap. So the action of the builder, which by itself produces no suds, with the oily soil, produces soap which in turn can produce suds. In any case, when I'm adding grated bar soap to the wash, I'll wait a few minutes to observe the suds level, before deciding whether the wash needs more. One nice feature of natural soap is that if over sudsing does occur, it tends to rinse away quicker than a synthetic surfactant does.

I still think that a properly formulated HE detergent is a good idea over using reduced amounts of a regular detergent. Most regular detergents are cut with sodium sulfate, which is merely a filler and has little cleaning ability on its own. Most regular detergents have high sudsing surfactants. This means you have to cut the amount way down to avoid over sudsing in an HE machine. In turn, that reduces the level of builder, anti-soil redeposition agent, enzymes, etc. to the point where they may be inadequate to achieve an acceptable level of cleaning.

A modern laundry detergent is a bit like a packaged cake mix. It has all the right ingredients allowed by law, but in fixed proportions. So if you need lower sudsing but still need maximum cleaning, you may be out of luck. Like a good chef, who prefers to make a cake from scratch using flour, eggs, milk, sugar, baking powder, etc., I prefer to add the surfactant (soap) separately from the builder/break/antisoilredepositionagent/waterwatersoftener (STPP). I can vary the amounts and proportions better to suit the type of laundry load and wash program.
 
I'm still using hot water (about 120 degreees) tide HE powder flavor along with some powder clorox2. Sometimes if my socks are really dirty, like they are this time of year I will kick the machine up to temp boost (150 degrees). I try not to do that to offten because the elastic in underpants dont take kindly to excess heat.

You didnt say what brand of FL you have but if you dont have a heater in it, you may want to consider turning up your water heater a bit in addition to some of the other suggestions. Sometimes it takes a few good washings and several attemps to get it just right.

Scott
 
HE detergents

HE detergents are not hype, as far as I can tell. Any detergent which oversudses will eventually damage the bearings in any front-loader which has inadequate tub shaft seals, particularly the Frigimore (Kenmore made by Frigidaire). I lost mine this way, and know several others who have as well. I noticed, in retrospect, that I saw in their laundryrooms traditional laundry soaps/detergents, and was told that the machines oversudsed on a number of occasions. As a mechanic, I strongly recommend using HE detergents (or at least a good lo-sudsing detergent) in any front-load machine.
 
Graying whites

I meant to add in my previous post-one of the best cures for fading or dingy whites is the use of liquid Calgon water softener, available at many supermarkets. I put about a capful in the tub with the clothes, and add some to the bleach dispenser if I'm not using bleach. This helps get the soap out of the clothes and restores the color. Don't overdo it, or you will get suds.
 
Back
Top