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Austin, I whole-heartedly understand and largely agree with you. Bu8t as I get older, I want my life to be a bit simpler and more automatic. And besides, it's not always easy for me to see stains and gets very tiresome. So many, via THS, have adopted pretty well to the longer cycle times. These are "real world" environments with busy families and such. That's where the rubber meets the road. It's just like at Ross' house with those incredibly dirty roasting pans. Toggle got impatitent with the 2nd load and scootched the timer past the water heat on the final rinse. I even fussed at him cuz he messed with the proper order of "things". I don't give a you know what about how long the load takes to run, if it's going to save me a lot of drugery dealing with those disgusting pans. I was even surprised, one pan came completely clean the first time & the 2nd was almost clean--2nd load fixed that I"m sure. It's the ol-fashioned power-clean based Kenmore, something like your portable WP. I was even impressed, I don't think my PotScrubber could have done the equivalent job.
 
It'll all come out in the wash

Not to be controversial,or "agitate" things,no pun intended,but I won't be adjusting my schedule for an all day wash session.I can breeze them thru the Amana TL in no time flat and they're clean.The washer will have to adjust to me,I won't ajust my life for a washer.
 
If the modern FL's filled up with enough water to begin with, there wouldn't be need for all these multiple rinses, steam (what a joke) and other nonsense, and consumers could have their 30-minute wash in a front loader.
 
If, as Laundress points out, Euro FL washer take as long as American FL washers to complete cycles, then the American 110 volt standard is not the issue.

In fact, most modern American 110 volt FL washers do not halt the timer in order to heat water. Instead they just limit the time of heating to a maximum of about 30 minutes, and continue tumbling during heating. Except, of course, for Sanitary cycles where the temp must reach over about 150F to earn that dubious distinction.

I do not mind that my Neptune takes 109 minutes for the longest possible cycle (extra heavy wash 34 min, plus a 15 min pre-soak, plus the maximum rinses (4), plus max extract 9 mins). Most cycles with 4 rinses take about 59 minutes. My laundry closet is in my main living area - I can cook, work on the computer, watch TV, etc while the laundry is going and it doesn't really tie up my day at home. I can also set the machine to start in the morning before I go to work and then be back at lunch to hang the laundry up to dry (providing it ever stops raining in Northern California). The spotless results with the 109 minute hot boosted wash makes it all worthwhile.

Of course, the Neptune tends to use more water - in some cases twice as much - as later American front loaders (25 gal per load average). I'm not claiming this makes it any better than newer FL's, but the Neptune is still the best fit for my laundry closet.
 
Efficiency!!!

Longer wash times for Euro machines are all about gaining the highest merrits for European Efficiency Standards...simple as that...no gimmicks....all fuss n hype!!!

90% of my loads are all on a quick wash cycle with ariel washing powder & confort conditioner, no pre-treat...

42mins Wash Time = 40d wash, heated from cold, thats 18 mins wash, 15 mins rinse (3 x 5mins) and a 1600spin over 9 mins, all done, super efficient...

ALSO, Euro laundramat DONT have long wash times at all, cycle is done & dusted in 30 mins...
 
Front Loaders

My Westinghouse LT800e from 1984, washed, sprayed rinsed, and two deep rinses in about 35-40 min, depending on the wash time selected. It tumbled one way, but it did have a lot more water in the tub. It did a wonderful job. The clothes always came out clean. The new ones work a lot different. Like Steve says, a lot less water, ramping up to the spin speed and balancing, and of course the water heating.
 
cleaning ability

What has made the modern F/L a success in cleaning, at least for stains, are modern detergents, a high concentration of said detergent (ratio of detergent to water) and longer wash times. OH yea, those multiple rinses are necessary to do much of the work, too.

T/L's have historically used a different wash methodology, emphasizing mechanical action from an era when soaps and detergents weren't so good and people scrubbed their clothes on washboards.

If you want to compare apples to apples, put the same concentration of detergent into a T/L and with the same cycle times as a F/L and I think you would see about the same results for stain removal and probably better results for soil removal--the later being the result of the larger volume water fill (of the T/L) will carry a heavier soil load.

The foregoing is essentially what has been done with the high efficiency T/L, which are now beginning to outscore the F/L's for cleaning. Hmmm.

Lets carry this thought one step further: If this theory is true, then the equivalent high concentrations of HE detergents in old F/L's, along with some additional cycle time, should make that Bendix or Rustinghouse, etc. an excellent all round wash performer.
 
Is it me, or are F/L manufacturers obsessed with unreasonably extending cycle times by any method possible..........

ah Mike thank you very much~~ now we know why EUROPE goes for the longer times "OFFICIALLY" and why the average person across the pond (are you average?, which I suppose beats being commom. --wink--) may not go for the time-stretch method either.
 
Toggle---don't you agree that our Frigidaire FL'ers clean very well, on the WHITES cycle, in about 55 minutes? I'll occasionally add another 6 minutes to the wash cycle if the load is uber-stained, but that still holds the cycle to an hour.

I love the FL format, but I'd go bananas if I had to wait 110-120 minutes for a cycle to be completed.

AND, since I now wash everything in cold water, heating times aren't an issue...
 
Togs, again: I don't know if there are many new TL'ers with 30 minute cycles anymore. Consumer Reports lists most of them at 40-55 minutes, if I recall correctly.

If a person REALLY wants a speedy cycle, then a vintage coin-op Frigidaire is your machine. I believe their cycle was a shade under 20 minutes. Amazing!
 
Consumer Rip-offs,oops I mean Reports

Consumer Reports lists TLs with 40-55 min.cycle times because the washers were tested at their maximum washing time-heaviest cycle.
 
if you add heat

You can reduce time.

However with poorly designed huge capcity machines with heaters running at 110V you only ever increase time.

My new Miele does a quick wash in 30 mins at 40degC, a normal wash with a 12 minute wash tumble takes 40 mins at 50degC with 2 rinses. This 40 minute cycle works perfectly on 99% of everything I wash. Lately I've added the extra rinse which adds about 8-10 minutes.

All these wash times are cold fill only.

If I have grimies however I push the intensive button, and I get a 2hour wash. If its really bad and I want to soak, I can push it out to 4 hours with a 2 hour autosoak. Its rare however to need to go that far.

My old Miele from the 70's uses lots of water and takes about 70 minutes for a normal cottons cycle. Most of the extra cycle time is due to the fact its heating about triple the water of the new machine. It however has an increase in element size from 2200w to 3600watts. At times if I overdose I find it struggles to remove the soap, because even though it rinses 5 times at a high level it only spins 3, and by the 5th rinse there can occaisionally be foam left in the drum. However I will admit that my towels come out of the older one far fluffier than they do from the new machine.

In regards to large amounts of time taken to balance and distribute, these seems to a problem only with the large capacity or poorly designed machines. Both Miele's old and new never get stuck distributing. On the old it goes from a tumble which lasts about 10 seconds, directly up to 900RPM and I've yet to have it stop the spin and tumble again. On the new Miele, it goes from a tumble to about 400rpm and then ramps up on a continuous curve until maximum speed. Again with this machine I've never had it stop and go back to redistribute. The tumble to 400RPM takes probably 15-30 seconds and then its straight up to max RPM.

I agree that TL machines don't shred, however they do cause more wear. Collars on business shirts in particular. The collars now last indefinitely where as with a TL machine washed once per week in a BD whirlpool on slow speed, every 6 months, my shirts would be relegated to the rag bag when the celluloid in the collar would start to poke through.

My recipie for washing shirts and towels with a TL was with hot water (Which usually was warm by the time the machine absorbed the heat) Detergent and oxygen bleach, I would pretreat the collars and cuffs with a stain remover 30 mins before loading and I would soak for usually an hour before letting the cycle progress. My collars and cuffs would usually come out clean, but nothing more than that. There would still be shades of grey. Now just with detergent and a 140dseg F wash, in 1.15 I get brilliant whites with no hint of grime or greyness on the collar. It sounds silly, but you do find a new level of clean.

I agree that TL machines are more fun and hands on, who hasnt stuck their hands in to feel the currents while agitating. However for a daily driver, I'm now converted and would never wash clothes in a TL machine. I save my dark towels and sheets for that priveledge when I feel like a play.

To each there own, and I must remind myself to stop getting so emotional about such a silly thing :)

Hugs
Nathan
 
Hi Eugene --waves---

I actually love my Frid-Ge-More front-loader and missed it when it was not hooked up. It has gone back in service and I'm going to try to bring it to my rental apt. if at all possible.The cycle time may be 45 minutes, but the machine reduces the dryer time to 45 minutes, so a wash and dry is still 90 minutes.

If I had to pick one style of machine:

The thorough gentleness and the loading flexibility of a F/L-er wins in my book. Sorry kids.

Top-loaders' speed, convenience and ability to handle mud and grease is unsurpassable. But then again I haven't had any mud-wrestling parties lately.

HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE:
WE ALL DEFEND WHAT WE KNOW, WHAT WE HAVE, AND WHAT WE ARE ACCUSTOMED TO. THIS IS THE MOST NORMAL THING IN LIFE.
 
Hi Bob,

What's funny is that I don't mind the cycle length on a dishwasher at all; the first time I heard about the short cycle of the Frigidaire spin-tube and KA I was shocked!! But, from the site (and by experience with the Bosch using the short cycle) I've learned that vintage DWs do just as good a job in 35 minutes as modern DWs in 85 minutes. I do think Toggle should have let Ross's DW run through the complete cycle...:)

Now a washer on the other hand...I think I've stated enough in my other post. Mike & Ray, thanks for the affirmations. I'm glad to hear that an FL can clean clothes just as well in a 45-minute or less cycle and that these long cycle times have no other purpose than to get a big bright "efficiency sticker" slapped on the front to make the manufacturer look good. Mike, how much water does your AskoTag take in for the short cycle? I heard once about a separate "extra water" option available but does your machine have one?

Like I've mentioned before, if these machines would just take in more water and reverse-tumble less often, then maybe they would be more convenient and get things done faster? The efficiency doesn't have to be brought down by much either; since they're mounted horizontally of course the overall water usage wouldn't be much compared to a top-loader. In Arizona we were talking about the demise of the better, timer-controlled induction motor in the White-Westinghouse FLs (complete with solenoid-powered pump and spin pulley) that tumbled in one direction only, and the introduction of the "dual-tumbling" control board/servo-motor combo. Maybe this was done not only to reduce energy usage, but to cut manufacturing costs as well? White-Westinghouse produced their SpaceMates set under the Montgomery Ward name during the 1980's, and looking at both my 1981 and 1985 Wards catalogs, they were EXPENSIVE even back then! For example, the 1981 Wards front-loading washer ALONE cost $549.95, which would be a little over $1200 today. At least they had some quality to them instead of what we have today...

Oh well, enough ranting for now.

--Austin
 
Euro vs American Front Loaders

Should make my previous statment regarding cycle times clearer.

The last time I used a French laundromat washer was in the 1980's and, to me it did take ages when compared to the top loader we had back home.

Indeed many "older" European front loaders, did have long cycles as the manual for my vintage Miele W1070 shows.

Cottons at 200F had a cycle time of 118 minutes
Using the half load button shortened the time down to 102 minutes. Because of something called "cycle gaurnatee" cycle times were kept regardless of water temp selected. So weather one washed cottons at 200F, 180F, 140F, 100F or 80F or 160F for a full load it took 118 mins,with short programs at 102 minutes except for 80F, which takes 72 minutes.

Miele's manual states cycle times are given for "normal" conditions, and that other factors such electrical connection (the washer can be wired to run on 120v 20amp power, vs 220v 20 amp), and water supply. This washer has a timed fill, so am assuming if one had low water pressure, the machine will have to keep stopping (to a point) to add more water.

Manual also states connecting the washer to a source of hot/warm water will also affect cycle times.

Part of the reason for long cycle times on vintage Euro front loaders was due to two factors related to the detergents then available; enzymes and oxygen bleach. Both these substances in there then current form needed long contact time to really do their jobs. Enzymes about 20 minutes in warm to lukewarm water, and oxygen bleach 10 minutes at higher wash temps, and longer as water temp dropped below 130F

Today's Euro detergents all contain bleaching activators which give "boil wash" performance at temps low as 100F. These means bleaching action starts faster in the cycle, so long boiling/bleaching is not required. Modern enzymes work in hot, cold, and warm water, thus work through out a wash cycle as the temp rises from cold water (assuming the washer is cold fill only)to warm or hot if that is the setting.

Persil amoung other Euro detergents has been redesigned to work in "short" wash cycles.

Should point out that for the 118 minutes my Miele manual states it takes for a normal cottons cycle,that includes a pre-wash, main wash,cool down rinse, five (5) rinses, graduated spin, final spin and high speed spin.

Will stand by my previous statement that American front loaders with heaters take so blasted long because they are trying to heat water, run a motor, etc all on 115v/15 amp service. My Miele has two 1500 watt heaters, so even when using it on 120v/20 amp service, with one heater leg, it has more heating power than any of the American domestic front loaders to my knowledge.

L.
 
My Neptune doesn't take any longer to complete a cycle with heater engaged, vs. no heater. That's because it doesn't require the temperature to reach a certain point during the wash. It's meant to boost, only, and its on time is limited to 30 minutes total.

I get around this by selecting the longest possible wash cycle, and generally it gets to its target point (130F) at some point in the wash cycle.

If stain cycle is selected, there is a hidden bonus: the first rinse will be the same temp as the wash. For hot washers, this means a hot rinse. Since there is considerable residual detergent in the washer for the first rinse, this further extends the wash cycle.

As I stated before, I believe most big American FL's don't require a temp to be reached, except for Sanitize cycles. So their various non-sanitize cycles shouldn't take any longer to complete with or without the heater engaged. Some, like the Speed Queen FL with internal heater, actually pause the tumbling while the heater is powered up. This in effect is a type of soak/stain cycle, and it will extend the wash cycle. Which in the case of the SQ, is a good thing, because it's cycles are too darn short to begin with.

Your Miele's 1500 watt heater is about 50% more powerful than the 1000 watt heaters in most big American FL's. Perhaps that may make a difference, along with the lower water/laundry volume it needs to heat.

It's nice that enzymes and oxygen bleaches can work at lower temps, but IMHO there is really no substitute for the power threesome: heat, time, and phosphates.
 
I think in the end as a few posters pointed out. It really is what you are used to. I know the first time i saw a Fridgemore FL in action was at Steve's last summer, I was more drawn to that than i was the filter-flo.

FL washers i do like a lot-let's face it, a washer is a washer, is a blah, blah, blah.

But do me a favor, stop with all the BS about how superior your FL machines are in soil removal. If the major manufacturers thought that was the case, TL washers would have been phased out long ago, doncha think?
 
Actually Pat, front loaders did command a nice share of the market in the 1950s between the Westinghouses and Bendix. Those Bendix wouold just keep on going. I've heard a rumour that GE started an ad campaign of fear of a front loader flooding your house or basement just so they could entice those owners to buy a new GE toploader. It worked, people dumped their front loaders for the top loaders. Except for the die-hard fans and I have actually known 3 in my life who wouldn't have anything but a Westy front loader.
 

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