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Togs, again: I don't know if there are many new TL'ers with 30 minute cycles anymore. Consumer Reports lists most of them at 40-55 minutes, if I recall correctly.

If a person REALLY wants a speedy cycle, then a vintage coin-op Frigidaire is your machine. I believe their cycle was a shade under 20 minutes. Amazing!
 
Consumer Rip-offs,oops I mean Reports

Consumer Reports lists TLs with 40-55 min.cycle times because the washers were tested at their maximum washing time-heaviest cycle.
 
if you add heat

You can reduce time.

However with poorly designed huge capcity machines with heaters running at 110V you only ever increase time.

My new Miele does a quick wash in 30 mins at 40degC, a normal wash with a 12 minute wash tumble takes 40 mins at 50degC with 2 rinses. This 40 minute cycle works perfectly on 99% of everything I wash. Lately I've added the extra rinse which adds about 8-10 minutes.

All these wash times are cold fill only.

If I have grimies however I push the intensive button, and I get a 2hour wash. If its really bad and I want to soak, I can push it out to 4 hours with a 2 hour autosoak. Its rare however to need to go that far.

My old Miele from the 70's uses lots of water and takes about 70 minutes for a normal cottons cycle. Most of the extra cycle time is due to the fact its heating about triple the water of the new machine. It however has an increase in element size from 2200w to 3600watts. At times if I overdose I find it struggles to remove the soap, because even though it rinses 5 times at a high level it only spins 3, and by the 5th rinse there can occaisionally be foam left in the drum. However I will admit that my towels come out of the older one far fluffier than they do from the new machine.

In regards to large amounts of time taken to balance and distribute, these seems to a problem only with the large capacity or poorly designed machines. Both Miele's old and new never get stuck distributing. On the old it goes from a tumble which lasts about 10 seconds, directly up to 900RPM and I've yet to have it stop the spin and tumble again. On the new Miele, it goes from a tumble to about 400rpm and then ramps up on a continuous curve until maximum speed. Again with this machine I've never had it stop and go back to redistribute. The tumble to 400RPM takes probably 15-30 seconds and then its straight up to max RPM.

I agree that TL machines don't shred, however they do cause more wear. Collars on business shirts in particular. The collars now last indefinitely where as with a TL machine washed once per week in a BD whirlpool on slow speed, every 6 months, my shirts would be relegated to the rag bag when the celluloid in the collar would start to poke through.

My recipie for washing shirts and towels with a TL was with hot water (Which usually was warm by the time the machine absorbed the heat) Detergent and oxygen bleach, I would pretreat the collars and cuffs with a stain remover 30 mins before loading and I would soak for usually an hour before letting the cycle progress. My collars and cuffs would usually come out clean, but nothing more than that. There would still be shades of grey. Now just with detergent and a 140dseg F wash, in 1.15 I get brilliant whites with no hint of grime or greyness on the collar. It sounds silly, but you do find a new level of clean.

I agree that TL machines are more fun and hands on, who hasnt stuck their hands in to feel the currents while agitating. However for a daily driver, I'm now converted and would never wash clothes in a TL machine. I save my dark towels and sheets for that priveledge when I feel like a play.

To each there own, and I must remind myself to stop getting so emotional about such a silly thing :)

Hugs
Nathan
 
Hi Eugene --waves---

I actually love my Frid-Ge-More front-loader and missed it when it was not hooked up. It has gone back in service and I'm going to try to bring it to my rental apt. if at all possible.The cycle time may be 45 minutes, but the machine reduces the dryer time to 45 minutes, so a wash and dry is still 90 minutes.

If I had to pick one style of machine:

The thorough gentleness and the loading flexibility of a F/L-er wins in my book. Sorry kids.

Top-loaders' speed, convenience and ability to handle mud and grease is unsurpassable. But then again I haven't had any mud-wrestling parties lately.

HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE:
WE ALL DEFEND WHAT WE KNOW, WHAT WE HAVE, AND WHAT WE ARE ACCUSTOMED TO. THIS IS THE MOST NORMAL THING IN LIFE.
 
Hi Bob,

What's funny is that I don't mind the cycle length on a dishwasher at all; the first time I heard about the short cycle of the Frigidaire spin-tube and KA I was shocked!! But, from the site (and by experience with the Bosch using the short cycle) I've learned that vintage DWs do just as good a job in 35 minutes as modern DWs in 85 minutes. I do think Toggle should have let Ross's DW run through the complete cycle...:)

Now a washer on the other hand...I think I've stated enough in my other post. Mike & Ray, thanks for the affirmations. I'm glad to hear that an FL can clean clothes just as well in a 45-minute or less cycle and that these long cycle times have no other purpose than to get a big bright "efficiency sticker" slapped on the front to make the manufacturer look good. Mike, how much water does your AskoTag take in for the short cycle? I heard once about a separate "extra water" option available but does your machine have one?

Like I've mentioned before, if these machines would just take in more water and reverse-tumble less often, then maybe they would be more convenient and get things done faster? The efficiency doesn't have to be brought down by much either; since they're mounted horizontally of course the overall water usage wouldn't be much compared to a top-loader. In Arizona we were talking about the demise of the better, timer-controlled induction motor in the White-Westinghouse FLs (complete with solenoid-powered pump and spin pulley) that tumbled in one direction only, and the introduction of the "dual-tumbling" control board/servo-motor combo. Maybe this was done not only to reduce energy usage, but to cut manufacturing costs as well? White-Westinghouse produced their SpaceMates set under the Montgomery Ward name during the 1980's, and looking at both my 1981 and 1985 Wards catalogs, they were EXPENSIVE even back then! For example, the 1981 Wards front-loading washer ALONE cost $549.95, which would be a little over $1200 today. At least they had some quality to them instead of what we have today...

Oh well, enough ranting for now.

--Austin
 
Euro vs American Front Loaders

Should make my previous statment regarding cycle times clearer.

The last time I used a French laundromat washer was in the 1980's and, to me it did take ages when compared to the top loader we had back home.

Indeed many "older" European front loaders, did have long cycles as the manual for my vintage Miele W1070 shows.

Cottons at 200F had a cycle time of 118 minutes
Using the half load button shortened the time down to 102 minutes. Because of something called "cycle gaurnatee" cycle times were kept regardless of water temp selected. So weather one washed cottons at 200F, 180F, 140F, 100F or 80F or 160F for a full load it took 118 mins,with short programs at 102 minutes except for 80F, which takes 72 minutes.

Miele's manual states cycle times are given for "normal" conditions, and that other factors such electrical connection (the washer can be wired to run on 120v 20amp power, vs 220v 20 amp), and water supply. This washer has a timed fill, so am assuming if one had low water pressure, the machine will have to keep stopping (to a point) to add more water.

Manual also states connecting the washer to a source of hot/warm water will also affect cycle times.

Part of the reason for long cycle times on vintage Euro front loaders was due to two factors related to the detergents then available; enzymes and oxygen bleach. Both these substances in there then current form needed long contact time to really do their jobs. Enzymes about 20 minutes in warm to lukewarm water, and oxygen bleach 10 minutes at higher wash temps, and longer as water temp dropped below 130F

Today's Euro detergents all contain bleaching activators which give "boil wash" performance at temps low as 100F. These means bleaching action starts faster in the cycle, so long boiling/bleaching is not required. Modern enzymes work in hot, cold, and warm water, thus work through out a wash cycle as the temp rises from cold water (assuming the washer is cold fill only)to warm or hot if that is the setting.

Persil amoung other Euro detergents has been redesigned to work in "short" wash cycles.

Should point out that for the 118 minutes my Miele manual states it takes for a normal cottons cycle,that includes a pre-wash, main wash,cool down rinse, five (5) rinses, graduated spin, final spin and high speed spin.

Will stand by my previous statement that American front loaders with heaters take so blasted long because they are trying to heat water, run a motor, etc all on 115v/15 amp service. My Miele has two 1500 watt heaters, so even when using it on 120v/20 amp service, with one heater leg, it has more heating power than any of the American domestic front loaders to my knowledge.

L.
 
My Neptune doesn't take any longer to complete a cycle with heater engaged, vs. no heater. That's because it doesn't require the temperature to reach a certain point during the wash. It's meant to boost, only, and its on time is limited to 30 minutes total.

I get around this by selecting the longest possible wash cycle, and generally it gets to its target point (130F) at some point in the wash cycle.

If stain cycle is selected, there is a hidden bonus: the first rinse will be the same temp as the wash. For hot washers, this means a hot rinse. Since there is considerable residual detergent in the washer for the first rinse, this further extends the wash cycle.

As I stated before, I believe most big American FL's don't require a temp to be reached, except for Sanitize cycles. So their various non-sanitize cycles shouldn't take any longer to complete with or without the heater engaged. Some, like the Speed Queen FL with internal heater, actually pause the tumbling while the heater is powered up. This in effect is a type of soak/stain cycle, and it will extend the wash cycle. Which in the case of the SQ, is a good thing, because it's cycles are too darn short to begin with.

Your Miele's 1500 watt heater is about 50% more powerful than the 1000 watt heaters in most big American FL's. Perhaps that may make a difference, along with the lower water/laundry volume it needs to heat.

It's nice that enzymes and oxygen bleaches can work at lower temps, but IMHO there is really no substitute for the power threesome: heat, time, and phosphates.
 
I think in the end as a few posters pointed out. It really is what you are used to. I know the first time i saw a Fridgemore FL in action was at Steve's last summer, I was more drawn to that than i was the filter-flo.

FL washers i do like a lot-let's face it, a washer is a washer, is a blah, blah, blah.

But do me a favor, stop with all the BS about how superior your FL machines are in soil removal. If the major manufacturers thought that was the case, TL washers would have been phased out long ago, doncha think?
 
Actually Pat, front loaders did command a nice share of the market in the 1950s between the Westinghouses and Bendix. Those Bendix wouold just keep on going. I've heard a rumour that GE started an ad campaign of fear of a front loader flooding your house or basement just so they could entice those owners to buy a new GE toploader. It worked, people dumped their front loaders for the top loaders. Except for the die-hard fans and I have actually known 3 in my life who wouldn't have anything but a Westy front loader.
 
Bob, this is here say...and if it is true, so what.. WP claimed to be the worlds largest manufacturer of washers in the early fifties. For conservation, no TL can beat a FL in terms of efficiency. Funny though, until the last couple of years, i never knew anyone who had a FL washer. They are both great, but for me, now is the time to grab the last of the water hogs being made....they WILL be classic one day.
 
INHALE, EXHALE, BREATHE!

Chilren play nice. Or I'll have to open a can of whoop-@$$.

LOL

Here is the deal~~ unless you have had both a front-loader and a top-loader a little less passion is in order.

QUEEN CLOACA HAS SPOKEN.
LOL
ROARING HERE
 
I can say I have both...I have all TL's except for my Rustinghouse, which is a cross between a REAL front-loader and one of those horrendously crappy modern machines, with characteristics of both.

*Ducks and runs*
 
I generally stay out of any TL vs. FL debate, and I'm not really getting into it now [grin], just a few comments.

Since the early 1970s to now, I can recall running across seven frontloaders in this "neck of the woods." That is not to say there aren't more, that's just the ones I saw. One was a Kenmore combo. Two were Westy SpaceMates stacked. These were both in the 70s and 80s. I suspect there were more Westys in the next town to the west of where I grew up, being as there was a local Westy dealer. Recently is someone with a Frigemore set stacked, a first-generation Neptune pair, an HE3(no t), and a Duet pair that arrived next door shortly before I moved.

I would like to have a modern ultra-capacity frontloader for ability to do a very bulky bedspread easily (which I rarely do it anyway, so not really a big deal), and for the water heating aspect.

That being said, I love the gyrations and technology of my F&P IWL12. Add water heating capability (wouldn't take much to superheat that small EcoActive fill!), and it'd be the ultimate agitator toploader. Perhaps the Oasis and upcoming Whirlpool sibling will offer a heater?

Cycle time on the IWL12 can run ~2.75 hrs, with prewash, maximum wash time, 2 hr soak, and an extra deep rinse. A typical load is 40 to 50 mins. So, a long FL wash wouldn't bother me at all.

I really was surprised how little water Austin's Rustinghouse takes for a fill.
 
Dimly out of the memory mists of time

It was all my older brother's fault.

I recall him once admitting that he opened the door of the bolt-down Bendix in the basement, while it was washing, and caused a big flood.

And THAT'S why I was forbidden to get anywhere near it.

I attribute anything bad that I have done or has happened to me since then on this early FL deprivation.

(LOL)
 
My Rant For The Day

I wonder just how stupid the manufacturers think the public is and how much longer people are going to fall for this marketing BS.... now, blowing steam on clothes to clean them! (smacking forehead)

I loathe being forced to scrub the odors out of my clothes manually, because my modern FL lacks the main ingredient necessary for washing!

I'm ready to pour a slab on the floor, hunt down a nice, old, used commercial front loader so I will have all my water and my window to watch it splash around. Then I can be happy at last :)

Anyone selling one of those trusty waterhog FL's from the past? Get in touch with me!
 
Back to the topic of steam generation...

Does anyone know what type of steam generator this thing [LG] has? Does it boil water with a calrod type element (time consuming)? Or does it use direct electrode immersion? The later would be relatively quick (like that old Hankscraft vaporizer) but requires an electrically isolated chamber and periodic maintenance.

Additionally, I've noticed that [water] heating gets a lot of discussion in these forums/threads, so I feel compelled to interject some science for those of you who are interested in this sort of thing. I don't know how much water the average F/L fills with, but I'm going to assume 5 us gallons for the following example.

As a general rule of thumb: a 1,000 watt (1kW) heater is going to increase the temperature of 5 US gallons of water about 82 degrees F (that's 45.5 deg C) in a period of 1 hour, neglecting losses. (That's about 1.36 deg F or 0.76 deg C temperature rise PER MINUTE for 5 US gallons.) So if you want to heat that 5 gallons by, say, 50 deg F, that would take 50/1.36 or about 37 minutes minimum. It is reasonable to assume 80-->90% efficiency for the F/L heating cycle, so multiplying the results of the calcs by 110% to 125% should get you well into the ballpark.

Since these relationships are almost linear (within limits), you can scale the foregoing to your application, i.e., 1.5kW is going to be 50% faster; or, 10 gallons will take more than twice as long to heat as 5 gallons under otherwise identical conditions.

***Disclaimer: The foregoing is based on the actual laws of physics, not conjecture or vodoo.

Now if I were designing a machine, I would use a 3kW to 5kW heater on 240V. Under these circumstances, you will get **reasonable** heating time, better efficiency and could still plug it into the standard (US) 30A dryer outlet.

As a final note, the 1kW heater found in the 120V US machines is likely derived from customary electrical engineering practices dictating that the full rated continuous load of an appliance is to be no more than 80% of its circuits rated capacity. Therefore a 20A/120V dedicated circuit should be good for 1920W continuous(at 1.0 power factor). Figure about 800W for the motor, 1kW for the element, a safety margin and you are there--maxed out. Now if a 30A/120V circuit were [still] permitted for residential use, you could have a 2kW heater, which wouldn't be too bad--kind'a like having your cake...
 
Interesting Stuff

It IS what you are used to that gets the results AND with every new machine you find out "whats best for you" ,

The debate about US v European machines is a total red herring, UK built machines where built and operated very differently to the German, Italian & Spanish machines..

The demise of these companies to Italy changed all that...we now fall in with Euro rules etc!!!

All of the British designed & made machines where H&C fill, the brit boys where talking about this recently, my mums 1970`s servis FL, 9lb load, H&C fill 800spin, washed for 15yrs for a family of six, and a 40d wash took 35 mins, never used the heater unless above 60d etc...and I never remember once seeing stuff that needed washing again..so it can be done, the difference is "How the water is heated"...

The MaytAsko takes 2 mins to raise the water from 40d to 50d, and uses about 50ltrs on my regular quick washes, the 95d wash take 67mins in total on quick wash ....3kw heater.

I`ve just been running in a Hoover Twinny, and as a test put the drain hose from the asko into it, the tub was about half full after the completed wash n 3 rinses.

When Jetcon Jon was here we put a FL hose draining into the Simpson TL and again quart full TL tub...

Nowthen , the Hoover twinny has auto rinse, One 6lb load is half the Asko weight, and the water used was two Simpson TL tubs....

This debate will run and run, because of different machines we are all used to...its sad that the change to optional FL in USA has hit big debates due to the longer heating times and this issue with mega drums spinning horizontally...

I did a test here with a 6kg load of wet bath towels, What a weight without spinning....cant imagine the stresses that the 9kg machines have to put up with., and all that with a sensitive balance controller....

BACK TO:
The LG...Its due here in June and was talking to an industry rep, he said its a submersed element, think kettle, bubbling water...also, here`s a pic of an LG direct drive washer drum....

4-13-2006-06-17-15--chestermikeuk.jpg
 
advantages and disadvantages

I grew up in the 'States and know TLs very well. Have lived in Europe since the early '80s so also know FLs. Am in the 'States frequently, so also know modern US TLs...
This is a discussion which is like the good old Macintosh or PC one: Whatever you want to "prove", you can.
My experience, for what it is worth is the following:
No, you do not wash every day in Europe. That is just plain silly. My 7Kilo washer is the same as an American 15.4lb. I wash just as often here as I did in the 'States.
Yes, European FLs take much longer than TLs. They also wash much more thoroughly. Of course, a TL which ran for that long would also wash more thoroughly. The mechanical wear and tear posed by a TL is the ultimate limiting factor in their running so long.
FLs use less water to get an equal amount of clothing clean. They use less detergent and bleach and enzymes, too.
Best of all, since the US manufacturers stopped building high-speed spins into their TLs, even slower FLs spin clothes much dryer. This saves time and energy in drying, gets the clothes cleaner, and is better for folks with allergies.
I love TLs from the 50's and 60's, but, being in a position to compare both acknowledge the technical advantages of the FLs. We will continue to argue this back and forth just like in the Apple and PC world - but can't we limit our discussion to questions that really matter like what will happen to Maytag now that those jerks from Whirlpool have taken them over? Why US manufacturers are playing the same foolish game against the Koreans and Chinese that the US car makers did in the 70's? Why Frigidaire hasn't had the brilliant idea of bringing back the Pulsators...
Now those are topics worth arguing about, instead of this apples and oranges discussion.
 
Whirlpool is no good

What do I hate about Whirlpool so much? Good question. When I first moved to Europe, the brand "Bauknecht" was one of the best know, higher quality brands. They, together with Philips who owned them for a while, produced a wide range of creative, durable, reparable, well-designed, easy-to-use, long-lived, environmentally friendly white goods.
They were sold to Whirlpool. Whirlpool kept the brand name but changed the production to the cheapest factories in Europe. They kept the price, but lowered the quality to appalling levels. They switched the service from highly skilled, creative, well-paid and well-treated service people to poorly paid, poorly-trained bought-in people who were paid to get in and get out as quickly as possible.
They...well, ok, I think I have made my point. Whirlpool deserves the worst things which can happen to them. They have destroyed so many good brands and applied all the worst aspects of modern management techniques while treating their customers and employees horribly.
Let's wait a year or two. When we see what they have done to Maytag we can have this discussion again.
 
Top Loaders vs Front Loaders

Growing up in my area, most people either had a front loader or wringer washer. Top Loaders became popular, because most people thought that front loaders were inconvenient to load and unload. A lot of Americans complained about all of the bending and stouping. (Laziness on the American part, LOL). So that is ONE of the reasons that top loaders became popular. Also, energy conservation was not so popular at the time. I think both machines are good. But you can wash a variety of more items in a front loader. A front loaders wins in my book. I have used both.
 
LG Washer

Ggibson, If you do not want to spend the money on the steam machine, get a regular LG front loader. I have the WM2032HW for over 2 years now and love it.

Ray
 
Extra Water Option Button

A new owner reported on THS when she used this option, the washer filled up to just below the door, was a noticeable difference.
 
IIRC some of the draw backs to early frontloaders were the requirement for bending to load or unload, failure of door gasket after awhile causing leaking, one way tumbling which could result in one's laundry emgerging in a tangled mess, inability to do true "soaking".

That last one was a big in that until modern detergents came along with "enzyme action", quite allot of laundry was still soaked to remove bad stains and heavy soils.

Finally there was the "suds" factor. Until low sudsing detergetns came on market, laundry was done in either soap or the "new" detergents, both created lots of suds. Suds are not something one wants when using a front loader.

L.
 
Panthera,

Well, I don't know. Maytag was well on its way to self-demolition when Whirlpool stepped in a saved it from going to a bunch of clueless bankers, or to the Chinese. I don't think Kitchenaid has suffered too badly from its ownership by WP, although I tend to prefer the older Hobart made designs. Perhaps Whirlpool is a bit more benign with domestic brands, and I was under the impression that it's not a bad company to work for in the US.

I also think that GE is a far more obnoxious company than Whirlpool, what with its policy of firing 10% of its management employees every year, not matter what, and its exorbitant price gouging on replacement appliance parts. And we all know what junk GE turned out in the 90's with its self-destructing direct drive plastic tranny washers and fail-one-month-after warranty expires fridges with rotary compressors. They do seem to make OK gas and electric ranges, but nothing really spectacular. Of course, classic, older, vintage GE's are cool.
 
And now a word from our sponsor...

Listen,

I'm a Pastry Chef which means that I wear White tunics that are stained with chocolate, raspberry, blood (when I help the knuckleheads in the kitchen) and protein stains of various foods. Three years ago I took a Chocolate seminar in Aurillac and the cleanest I've EVER seen my uniforms get was out of a French Miele FL which heated the water to 90 degrees C (= 194 degrees F) after prewashing in cold water with French Ariel as the soap du jour. The whole thing took less than 1 hour and the machine was belching steam before it threw the wash water.

I own a US LG that I am pretty happy with except for the fact that it doesn't/can't/won't heat the water that high because it runs on 120V and the laws of physics say you just can't run that pretty DD motor and heat the water that high within a reasonable amount of time. When Miele finally decides to market its large capacity machine that spins at 1600 RPM and offers water temperatures to 90 C, I'M BUYING IT!!!!

I feel like that a-hole MC on "meet the press" but it's the easy answer--these machines have to run on 220V. PERIOD.
 
My vintage Miele W1070 can do 200F,but can also be wired to run on 120V, with one heater leg disabled. Since the washer is mechanical timer, but the timer is not run through the thermostat,unless wash water reaches correct tiem in a certian period of time, the cycle will progress regardless.

However the work around is simple. Either do a cold pre-wash, and fill the wash cycle with tap hot water (which in our building is about 130F to 140F), and allow the unit to heat from "hot" to "boiling". Or, simply "test" the water temp by moving the temp dial slightly up or down listening for the "click" telling one what temp the machine has reached. If it has not reached the desired temp before the timer moves out of the water heating phase of the cycle; merely stop the washer, reset timer to start of the heating portion of the wash cycle, and restart the machine. Since the washer heats on 1500 watts, it really does not take that much longer to go from say 140F to 180F or even 200F. This is why one so prefers mechanical timer washers, over computer controlled units. Do no think even the 120v powered W1918 units (yes, there are some out there), allow this flexibility.

L.
 
LG

Hi Ken,
I was wondering what model LG you have? I have the 3677 combo. Nice machine I just don't like the time it takes to balance to go into a spin. I agree about the Miele I wish they made a full size model.
Thanks,
Peter
 
I have a WM-2432, at the time (two years ago) it was the TOL: 1200 RPM spin (what mattered most to me). I wanted an old-style configuration with a backsplash and the dispenser tray on top. As I've said many times on this site, I love the machine, but the water-heating issue has been the only big disappointment. And it's so unnecessary: I would have been happy to install a 220V circuit to run it properly.

I am usually more amused than anything by the machines fumbling with the load to get the balance just right--I suppose it is a good design feature that protects the machine from excessive wear. I haven't had that much of a problem with it. Only once has the machine failed to continue a cycle because it couldn't balance the act.

In the future, however, I'd like to be able to choose at what point in the cycle bleach gets injected. One of the only things I liked about the Whirlpool FL's is that the bleach is injected during the first cold rinse: ideal point. On the LG it is always injected for the last 5 minutes of the wash cycle, even when it's running a Sanitary (heated) cycle where the water is too hot for chlorine bleach to work properly. If the engineers at LG had been thinking about it, they would have made it so the bleach would go in during the "cool-down" finish of the Sanitary cycle. But they didn't. (Although, I will say, in my experience, the Miele's I saw in France don't even have bleach dispensers, like the Asko's).
 

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