Looking for a Hobart-Kitchenaid Dishwasher

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jkbff

jkbff

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Hello all!

I have been lurking for a while and have decided to actively try to find a hobart-made kitchenaid dishwasher. My Mother had one when I was a kid and I used to fall asleep in front of it because I found the sound soothing...

I was thinking about getting a miele because I love some of the features, but I don't love the price tag. If I am going to stay in the cheaper range, I may as well find a no longer loved kitchenaid that I can love for years to come.

The main problem I face is that I can't find one in my area of North Dakota. Ebay is showing several listings of serviced ones, but that brings another problem... What are the differences between kdp, kdc, kds and kdi etc model codes? Also, what are the differences between generations? I am getting a feel that the general sought-after one is a KDS18. Is there a listing somewhere that provides a generation-generation change?

If you guys could help, or know of a decent KDS that could be shipped to my area, please let me know! Happy ware-washing!
 
Let's do letters first
C=custom-bottom of line--full cycle (normal wash), added rinse & hold after 16 seriews
I=Imperial next up--added Soad & Scrup with 17 series
P=Patrician only found in 18-20 series I believeHad rapid avance timer, pretty much everything but Sani Rinse and maybe adjustable top rack.
S=Superba, the top of the line--full featured

16 & 17 Series still single-wash level, one-arm design.
18 Series added wash arm below upper rack.
19 series offered automatic water heating but only no-heated dry.
20 series had water heating and also returned heated dry
21 series--the last of the Hobart product. during the 21 series is when Whirlpool acquired KitchenAid and some of the 21 series wasn't made by Hobart but still had all the same racking and porcelain interior

I'm sure I missed some of the more finer points, but it's a good general overview. You can use my email in my profile to contact me.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for the reply!

So, when did they include wash arm on the top of the tub? The 19 had no heated dry? Did it have the fan option taken out as well? Do the 20's hold up?

I don't suppose you know what years what generations were made?

I have a Edgestar DWP60ES 6 place counter-top dishwasher that doesn't have heated dry. I've gotten used to that, but if the 19 has the fan, I'd probably be ok with that. I plan on putting the counter-top model in the cabinet next to my sink and the kitchenaid in freestanding cabinet with an enameled cast deep wash sink in my utility/pantry of my studio apartment.
 
Yes, We Do!

"I don't suppose you know what years what generations were made?"

Here, direct from the AW.org Archives, is the official KitchenAid list of its models and their production dates.

And direct from me, here's a hint: Go for a Superba, the TOL model. Used, they cost no more, and the extra features make them extra-satisfying to own and use. Fortunately for your quest, Superbas are actually the most common KA's to find; it seems that anyone who could afford a KA brand new usually went whole hog:

danemodsandy++7-29-2013-07-17-28.jpg
 
Constant Rinse

Joshua,
The small waash arm you referred to was called "Constant Rinse." This little addition came out on the 16 series machines and ended with the 18 series. It did help keep the "yibbles" out of the tops of cups and bowls in the top rack. They were very easily broken and I would venture to guess that the average user probably did not know it was even there so they would just load up the top rack and slide it in and if it encountered some resistance, they pushed the rack harder until it slid in,resulting in a broken rinse assembly. They are no longer available but sometimes they show up on Ebay. They also changed the design from the original so keep your eyes open for one on Ebay if you should find yourself with an 18 series.
It did not provide any fresh water risning but was powered by the wash pump and sent detergent laden water over the stuff in the top rack. Of course, during the rinses, it would send that clean water over the dishes.

The constant rinse arm was removed with the 19 series and did not reappear until the tall tubs came out. It did look like it was thought about for the 24 series Whirlpool clone as there was a small tube on the top of the water supply tube for the upper wash arm that was capped off but I guess they changed their minds about it for the KA line.

The tall tubs have a spinner which now looks like the original design from the late 60's while some of the Kenmores and Whirlpools had one that emulated the newer designed which was a rotating disc which flung the water out over the dishes.
 
I'm gonna keep looking for a Hobart-made Kitchenaid, but doing a lot of calling around the last few days is proving fruitless... I started snooping around on the net and came across this from gardenweb:

User Lee676 posted:
KitchenAid dishwashers made from about 1985 to 1993 (or whenever the Hobart design was replaced by the Whirlpool-based design) were actually manufactured by Emerson, parent company of Insinkerator. When Whirlpool tried to buy KitchenAid, they were hit with an antitrust lawsuit from both WCI and Magic Chef, which both argued that the proposed sale of Kitchenaid would give Whirlpool an illegally high concentration of market share that would force smaller competitors of the market. The Zagrans law firm (of which Whirlpool was a client) has the text of the injunctions online (WCI vs. Whirlpool); the court initially ruled against Whirlpool, blocking the buyout of KitchenAid. The legal documents provide interesting reading; in order to get the legal green light, Zagrans and Whirlpool came up with a scheme that would skirt antitrust law by having Hobart sell Kitchenaid to Emerson rather than Whirlpool, and arranging a sweetheart deal that would have Emerson build their latest-design dishwasher exclusively for Whirlpool (branded KitchenAid) and themselves (branded InSinkErator) for the next 8 years, after which legal barriers would be lifted. Whirlpool would pay 20% above cost for the dishwashers they bought from Emerson. But the court ruled that Whirlpool would effectively control Emerson's production, so it still didn't fly until Zagran amended the proposal to allow Emerson to sell their older-design dishwashers to any other manufacturer that wanted them, not just Whirlpool. The idea was that in the 8-year period, Emerson could strike deals with other appliance manufacturers that made only cooking appliances and needed to rebrand an outsourced dishwasher to have a complete line of kitchen appliances, thus maintaining a competitive market. As it turned out, I don't think any other company ever bought Emerson's dishwashers, InSinkErator didn't sell many dishwashers, and they never expanded either manufacturing or branding into other major appliances, and after the 8-year period lapsed, Emerson and ISE simply abandoned dishwashers altogether.

Are the Emerson made dishwashers decent or did they completely go away from the hobart designs?
 
I may be over-simplifying things, but while Emerson may have built the dishwashers, the design and specs were still all from Hobart until Whirlpool came in, and even then Whirlpool made no major/visible changes until production began on the series 23 machines.

 

Steve T. posted a link to that same injunction document quite some time ago, and it was very informative.  I happen to own two InSinkErator Classic Supreme dishwashers (one is my daily driver, the other a functional spare) which are clones of KA series 22 machines.  Part of the agreement allowing Emerson to put the ISE badge (or any others) on KA machines required them to come up with a different lock/latching system so a lower priced ISE wouldn't look identical to a KA.  $250K later, Emerson had a design for a new latch with a side-to-side movement instead of the KA type that flipped up and down.  I've come to prefer that design over KA's after using my ISE for the past couple of years.

 

If you want a "true" Hobart machine, you should be looking for a series 20 or older.  Those will have the non-reversing motor that was dropped starting with series 21 machines, which used reversing motors made by Emerson.  Personally, I'd pursue a series 18 or 20 (I want the option of a heated dry cycle which the 19's don't have) because they employ a separate wash arm for the upper rack which facilitates carefree loading.  Series 17, 16 and 15 have just the single 4-way Hydrosweep wash arm and as a result loading the lower rack will sometimes require a strategy.  If you're OK with a single wash arm, I suggest not going for anything older than a series 15.  Prior to that, the capacities were smaller, rack design was still based on the earliest KA home models, and there were fewer options.  As was stated further upthread, set your sights on a Superba model for the most options and visual appeal.

 

 
 
The single wash arm,

aka "4 Way Hydro-Sweep" or "Hurricane In A Box" works just fine with minimal attention to lower rack loading, and do consider models other than the Superba only. We've had most iterations of KA Series 15 thru 18, still have a 17 Custom and Imperial and 18 Patrician and Superba, and we actually prefer the 17 Custom models for their short cycling and much simpler wiring, and while they don't have all the bells + whistles or fancy looks of a KDS, simplicity is an advantage in ANY machine, especially a 40 yr old one, if the basics are sound. They have the same motor/pump, same blower dryer, imo clean and dry just as well, again with just minimal attention to not blocking the water via lower rack obstructions, and they are classic Hobart in quality and function. My $.02
 
In the supermarket there was a post for a portable kitchenaid in butte Mt. I contacted the seller and she said she'd hold the machine for me to pick it up on Sunday. Seeing how I only have a sedan I am going to borrow a family members old van and make the 7 hour schlep over there to get this machine.

With that said, how does one carry this machine in a minivan with out damaging it? When I get there what are things I should look for that would cause me to not want this machine? I'm hoping she sends me more pics of the machine before Sunday.

If anything wish me luck!
 
It shouldn't matter much how you transport the machine, but if you're going to lay it on its back or side, remove the racks first.

 

Since it's a portable, IIRC the coupler for the faucet connection is at the top rear on these machines.  If you lay the machine on its back, you may want to pull the hoses out so the coupler isn't down by the floor of the vehicle, otherwise you may have some leakage if there's any water sitting in the pump.
 
I am so super excited for Sunday... I think I am annoying the hell out of this poor woman... !!!! Here are some pics she sent me :-)

(I do not understand how this forum works >.> when I try to link to my picasa albums it won't let me use https :// in the links it always adds a http :// .... And I can't turn on the advanced text editor!)

https://picasaweb.google.com/112500...&authkey=Gv1sRgCKiBydi_2LOoQA&feat=directlink
 
That stainless one is pretty, but Jersey is a lil far away from me lol... 7 hours to pick this one up is a bit far too but its too good of a deal to pass up...

That being said, she emailed me and told me I'll have to sand the top down and oil it and that it hasn't been used for several years because she had one plumbed in.. She said it was her step-moms and she only used it when they had big get-togethers as a backup.

What actions will I have to take to make sure everything is sealed up, lubed and working again before I can do a maiden load of dishes in it?

I am hoping that running some barkeepers friend in an empty load is safe for it cause I wanna clean the tub and baskets..

Also, what kind of detergent works best in this machine? Right now I use Melaleuca products.

I really can't wait until tomorrow.. I'll probably leave tonight LOL.
 
After examining the components in the machine's sump area and before you attempt to run it, dump maybe 1/2 gallon of very hot water (but not boiling) into the sump area and let it stand for a while to soften up the rubber pump seal.  This is standard operating procedure with a machine that has been sitting idle for a long period.  If you see any drips under the machine when you do this, make sure they're not getting inside the motor or the presence of water will short it out.  With use, a small leak will often seal itself back up.  Just be vigilant in the beginning.

 

I don't know if BKF is recommended, but someone else here can perhaps advise on that.  I used Lemishine (Target carries it) to clean the interior and freshen up my In-Sink-Erator (KA series 22 clone) once in a while.

 

Depending on the softness/hardness of your water supply, you may need to include a phosphate additive with your detergent.  Bubble Bandit is one brand of automatic dishwasher detergent that still contains phosphates, or you can invest in a big tub of STPP to supplement in whatever dosage provides satisfactory results.

 

Again, since your machine has only the lower wash arm, you'll need to be careful about how you load the bottom rack to make sure no large items like pots prevent the spray from reaching the top rack.  A single pot probably won't be a big deal, but if you have a few of them to wash, they could effectively block the spray and compromise cleaning of contents on the top rack.
 
From what has been said it's a portable 18, its got all three arms. There is a link to some pictures in reply 13. If the link doesn't work let me know.

So I don't have to dump oil or anything in it then right? Also, with this being a portable, will the bottom be exposed? I've never seen one of these out from under a cabinet before.

I am so excited to get this.. I just hope I don't need any parts.
 
I Stand Corrected!

You're right -- it's an 18 series so you have the upper and lower rack wash arms as well as the shower from the top.

 

Definitely don't dump any oil into it!

 

I'm pretty sure the bottom should be exposed just like with a built-in.
 
I hope at some point I can find a stainless steel insert for it.

I appreciate the replies! I just hope nothing happens to keep me from getting it LOL.

I dunno why I am so excited about this ... I've got my first 3 loads of dishes planned out to see how much easier it will be to load this compared to my Edgestar DWP60ES 6 place counter top dishwasher I have now...

That edgestar is a great little counter top unit and now the one they make that replaced my model has a heated dry option so it heats the water too.. I wanna redo one of my base cabinets and make a space to put the edgestar in above a drawer so that will be in my main kitchen space so when its just me I can do a few dishes right away and the KitchenAid will be in the pantry plumbed in so I can load my pots and pans etc up... The edgestar works great for glasses and flatware but not so much for my all-clad pans or mixing bowls.... My KitchenAid 7qt mixer bowl won't fit in it. The next thing I want to replace is my sink.. I'm gonna see if I can find a deep cast iron single or oversized basin sink next.
 
You May Need:

A faucet coupling to connect the hose assembly to your faucet.

This is a small metal piece that screws onto your faucet in place of the aerator that is almost certainly on the faucet now. The hoses' plastic coupling pushes on to the faucet coupling. Pushing downward on the ring of the hoses' coupling releases the hoses' coupling from the faucet coupling. The button on the hoses' coupling is so that you can draw hot water even if the dishwasher is connected to the faucet; press the button and hold your teakettle, etc. under the coupling.

Hardware stores carry the faucet coupling; unscrew your faucet's aerator and take it with you to help the salesperson match the right size and threading. These are not an exotic part; a reasonably well-stocked hardware or DIY store should have what you need.

Also, to answer one of your questions upthread, the bottom of the dishwasher is open; there is not a cover over the bottom. When you tip the dishwasher onto its side, you'll be looking at the area under the machine, where you will see the motor, etc.
 
Congrats!!!

My MIL had this exact machine, it's one of Hobart's best - hope you get it and that it lives up to you expectations Josh! Welcome to the club (from a happy 2 x 17 1 x 18 KA Series owner!) Roger in NY
 
Joshua

It looks like you found yourself a very nice Superba. Is there a Habitat (for Humanity) Restore in Dickinson or nearby city/town ? They are a great resource for
very reasonably priced recycled appliances and building materials.
 
Dickinson is a branch of the Bakken Artery lol Everyone has to have brand new and what not, but instead of donating their stuff, they just have it disposed of.. All the older appliance shop owners are shutting down because 1, they have oil wells and 2, because they don't want the business anymore.. All you can get now is brand new stuff.:/

.. Well 24 hours and 6 gas stops later, I got the machine, loaded and unloaded... I've updated the photo album that was linked above with new pics... ... It was worth the $25... not much more than that for right now...

The constant rinse arm is busted, if I am seeing that correctly... The middle rinse arm doesn't spin all the way around with out hanging up on the broken plastic that holds it and the top is a bit more gone than I thought, and its loose... The cutlery basket is broken in spots..

I was going to complain about the front wheels but I tightened those...

Ok, I live in a basement apartment.. SON OF A B is that machine heavy.. it took three of us to get it down my cement stairs...

I put waster in it and So far I haven't seen any drips.. I plugged it in after letting it set for a while and it went bonkers, but I pulled the handle all the buttons reset, I did a cancel drain, it went through each cycle for a few seconds had the dry light on for about 30 seconds then it shut off.. I dont have the right coupler.. im going to assume since mine is too small its gonna be the one used for garden hoses? I wanna hear water flowing through this before I go to bed...

Oh, the handle latch on the door is uncomfortably loose, the cord winder cord doesn't stay in place and the plastics on the back are broken and partly missing...

There was a random white clip laying on the bottom, i took a pic of it.. not sure what it goes to. The paint on the DW is a bit banged up... theres rust on the front and in one of the pics you see a random wire...

Also, if you look at the pump pics, there might be an issue.. :/ not sure what I am looking at.. I almost crushed my hand trying to get the pics so I said enough with that... I need a floor hoist to work on this thing...

Please excuse the mutterings .. I am completely exhausted... I drove a little over 1k miles in under 24 hours on 4 hours of sleep...
 
You'll Be Fine:

After you've gotten some rest, you can deal with one thing at a time, and you'll get the machine back in shape little by little.

The first thing, obviously, is a coupler. After that, you can assess each issue in turn, and we'll help.

Please do not throw in the towel because of parts that are broken or missing. Some parts are harder to find than others, but sooner or later, they all surface. Get familiar with using the Super Shopper forum to put out BOLOs on stuff you need.

One last thing: Things may look daunting at this point, but you have actually already done the hard part. Just finding a dream machine is very difficult sometimes, as you know.

Congratulations, and let us know if we can help.
 
Looks good!

A little TLC and you will be washing in no time. I wonder if the china guard can be mended with some sort of epoxy. I bought a Superba Monterey (21 series) last summer--made after Whirlpool aquired Hobart, but still very much like a Hobart built dishwasher. I have it in a utility room off the carport and it has come in so handy as a second DW. I used it last night after a marathon grilling session and am, as always, blown away with how well it cleans!

Good luck!
 
I've already found a constant rinse arm and I think I have an upper basket lined up.. I want to take the basket off but I wanna run the washer a few times and make sure moisture is put back in the plastic because I don't want it to break.. I'm off to ace hardware to see if I can find the coupler .
(since this didn't post before I left, Ace Hardware calls the coupler a Large Dishwasher Quick Connect. I got the last one on the hook if you can believe that!)

I won't throw in the towel... After I just simply wiped it down this morning, I was already pleased with my purchase.. I got rid of the smell of her garage.. Bleh!

I'm gonna buy a cheap sander and do some large grit sanding, then fine grit and redo the oil on the top. I just still honestly can't get over how heavy this thing is..... I'll post some pics when I get back from the hardware store.

Oh, I spent a whole whopping 7 dollars and bought anything related to kds-58 and 18 in the literature section. I've had a print service print them for me so I have paper.

(This is after I came back)

I noticed when I hooked the water up and ran a rinse only cycle, I heard a lot of thudding in the inside as the water started to pump.. I kept opening the dishwasher and I don't think my bottom arm is moving at all.. Do I need to oil anything?
 
Make sure that the dishwasher is filling up sufficiently. There was a thread with photos to show how high the water level should come up to on the pump screen, but I can't seem to find it right now. One thing that I had to do when I got my KDS-58 was remove the water-saving disc in the faucet quick connect that I bought... once I did that, then the water would fill to the right level.

One thing I noticed from your pictures is that you appear to be missing the course filter. It's a plastic filter that snaps into the pump base to prevent large items from getting down into the pump, such as a stray utensil.

http://www.repairclinic.com/PartDetail/Lint-Filter/4162007/557350?modelNumber=KDS-18
 
The picture of the stray wire hanging down... is that hanging under center of the bottom of the front panel? If so, it could be a wire going to one of the detergent dispenser bi-metals. You can take the front panel off by removing four screws on the inside edge of the door. While you're in there, you should take a look at the condition of the back side of the detergent dispenser to see if it is leaking. I had to change a couple of O-rings in mine when I got it... very easy to do, and costs only pennies.

Here's a thread I started after I changed mine.

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?45246
 

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