Mauerfall - Fall of the Berlin Wall ventennial
- Thread starter favorit
- Start date
It was nice...
...and absolutely the rigth thing to happen. I wasn't there, but it looks like fun was had by everyone. Nonetheless, tearing down the 'Wall' didn't tear down prejudice and stereotypes, but created new ones. People in the former West Germany suddenly felt this huge sense of being hard done by those freeloaders from the former East Germany. When the champagne went stale so did the euphoria. A lot of public money changed hands, extra taxes were raised in the West to help re-build the old East and one heard mutterings of 'du alte Ossie Sau' - 'du bloeder Wessie wichser' usw usf (I won't translate this it's a little rude), which would occasionally turn into a black eye or broken limb. Some people on both sides got rich, most didn't. A lot of former East Germans went to the West and, once they spent the allowance they had been given by the (West German) Gov't, I think it was in exchange of worthless Communist money for valuable Capitalist currency - correct me if I am wrong Panthera, please. Anyway, when they had spent all the money and realized that one needed to work and be competitive to earn more, many began wondering what the fuss had been all about. They were learning lesson #1 - 'Freedom in capitalist society cost money'(say this with heavy Russian accent). In American it translates to 'Money talks and bull***t walks.'
Anyway, I think they are happy now? With Germans it's always a little hard to glean. Like the English, they complain an awful lot about everything all the time.
In Global terms I am not sure that the fall of the 'iron curtain' was necessarily a desireable thing. In them days everyone knew their place and there was a sense of global stability. We all knew the stakes, should one side flinch and push that button.
Boundaries have become a lot more blurred since. Now we have a whole bunch of countries emerging as serious competitors to fill the military void left by the USSR, more nutty dictators and crazed religious nuts, who are only a hair's breadth away from acquiring 'WMDs' to blow up something/someone. Putin is probably one of the richest men in the world today and as trustworthy as a diamondback. So, add to this the GFC, GW/CG, peak oil etc. - the old east vs west conflict now seems less threatening.
...and absolutely the rigth thing to happen. I wasn't there, but it looks like fun was had by everyone. Nonetheless, tearing down the 'Wall' didn't tear down prejudice and stereotypes, but created new ones. People in the former West Germany suddenly felt this huge sense of being hard done by those freeloaders from the former East Germany. When the champagne went stale so did the euphoria. A lot of public money changed hands, extra taxes were raised in the West to help re-build the old East and one heard mutterings of 'du alte Ossie Sau' - 'du bloeder Wessie wichser' usw usf (I won't translate this it's a little rude), which would occasionally turn into a black eye or broken limb. Some people on both sides got rich, most didn't. A lot of former East Germans went to the West and, once they spent the allowance they had been given by the (West German) Gov't, I think it was in exchange of worthless Communist money for valuable Capitalist currency - correct me if I am wrong Panthera, please. Anyway, when they had spent all the money and realized that one needed to work and be competitive to earn more, many began wondering what the fuss had been all about. They were learning lesson #1 - 'Freedom in capitalist society cost money'(say this with heavy Russian accent). In American it translates to 'Money talks and bull***t walks.'
Anyway, I think they are happy now? With Germans it's always a little hard to glean. Like the English, they complain an awful lot about everything all the time.
In Global terms I am not sure that the fall of the 'iron curtain' was necessarily a desireable thing. In them days everyone knew their place and there was a sense of global stability. We all knew the stakes, should one side flinch and push that button.
Boundaries have become a lot more blurred since. Now we have a whole bunch of countries emerging as serious competitors to fill the military void left by the USSR, more nutty dictators and crazed religious nuts, who are only a hair's breadth away from acquiring 'WMDs' to blow up something/someone. Putin is probably one of the richest men in the world today and as trustworthy as a diamondback. So, add to this the GFC, GW/CG, peak oil etc. - the old east vs west conflict now seems less threatening.
Oh and as far as the European Union is concerned...
There are those countries that give, many more that take and Europe Inc. a very expensive undertaking. They are admitting too many nations too quickly, I feel. If the major European economies falter so will Europe.
There are those countries that give, many more that take and Europe Inc. a very expensive undertaking. They are admitting too many nations too quickly, I feel. If the major European economies falter so will Europe.
panthera
Well-known member
oh, I won't say one word here,
except for three:
1) It took the Ministry of Culture six months to decide my secondary teaching credentials were adequate to teach in Germany.
East German teachers - even ones with 20 years experience - had to go back to school for at least 4 semesters and be certified as beginners. Paid as such, too. This is interesting because one of the very few areas in which the East was equal to the West had been education.
2) We keep pretty extensive records and the statistics show that my students from the "ex-DDR" throughout the 1990s outperformed our Bavarian students slightly.
3) Unification came at a time when major joblessness was being covered up by the (conservative, of course) government. This led to much resentment and negative stereotyping of workers from the East. Totally baseless, by the mid-90's, the average employer was happy to have the eastern Germans in his or her firm.
We gained a lot when the East became free. Unfortunately, we threw out nearly all that was good along the bad.
Some folks here confuse socialism, being progressive, communism and being a Democrat. If you had ever actually been to a communist country, you'd wouldn't. Communism was even worse than we were taught in the West. It crushed spirits. A lot like Ayn Rand's world, actually. The extremes touch, as if politics were a circle.
But I'd rather those Germans who grew up in that time describe it here, I'd only been in the country six years at the time.
except for three:
1) It took the Ministry of Culture six months to decide my secondary teaching credentials were adequate to teach in Germany.
East German teachers - even ones with 20 years experience - had to go back to school for at least 4 semesters and be certified as beginners. Paid as such, too. This is interesting because one of the very few areas in which the East was equal to the West had been education.
2) We keep pretty extensive records and the statistics show that my students from the "ex-DDR" throughout the 1990s outperformed our Bavarian students slightly.
3) Unification came at a time when major joblessness was being covered up by the (conservative, of course) government. This led to much resentment and negative stereotyping of workers from the East. Totally baseless, by the mid-90's, the average employer was happy to have the eastern Germans in his or her firm.
We gained a lot when the East became free. Unfortunately, we threw out nearly all that was good along the bad.
Some folks here confuse socialism, being progressive, communism and being a Democrat. If you had ever actually been to a communist country, you'd wouldn't. Communism was even worse than we were taught in the West. It crushed spirits. A lot like Ayn Rand's world, actually. The extremes touch, as if politics were a circle.
But I'd rather those Germans who grew up in that time describe it here, I'd only been in the country six years at the time.
I will say a word or two now,
Why is the Ministry of Culture responsible for education? Shouldn't they be looking after precious German artifacts and the country's cultural heritage? I would have thought that the Ministry of Education is responsible for scholastic matters. Anyway, I am not happy with the German language curriculum and the dumbing down of German grammar and spelling.
Now in regards to East German teachers, perhaps the rationale behind making them re-qualify was to ensure that they weren't going to bring DDR attitudes and Stasi methods into West German schools. After all, education is about so much more than simply numeracy and literacy.
I love Bavaria. Though too much Catholicism and, outside of Munich, very parochial. My parents did contemplate relocating there once upon a time. They wanted to live in the Alps, but were counselled by a family friend, who hailed from there, against it. The climate was another reason ma and pa changed their minds. Instead my father did the next best thing and built a Bavarian style house in Sydney.
Major joblessness has always been a problem. I recall in the early '70s you already had to be a graduate to get an apprenticeship as a butcher/baker or garbo. I guess nothing has changed. Unemployment has always hovered in the double digits in my living memory. It is my guess that chronic unemployment of around 12 percent must be factored into German economic policy as a matter of fact. The welfare state is an economic entity in it's own right.
I am sure that much was gained when the two Germanies were re-unified. At least I was able to visit my maternal grans' birthplace. It was on the wrong side of the wall for much of my life and a place of personal fascination. My gran grew up in Hoppegarten, which during her childhood in the 1920s and '30s, was where the hoity-toity used to congregate. It also had a sizeable and permanent English population, being involved with horse racing, bookmaking and all that. There still are a few beautiful old mansions in that area, harking back to the glory days. I visited the local cemetary there, which is where my great-grandmother is buried and, to my surprise, half of the cemetary was full of English corpses. Many beautiful and ornate headstones dated back to the late 19th century and, even more surprising, the graves were still being tended unlike my great-nan's (full of weeds etc. - took us an hour to find it).
In '93, when my grandmother was still alive, we went to her birthplace and family home. It was around the time when a lot of expat East Germans, who had fled to the West even before the Wall was built, started to lodge claims over real estate left behind the iron curtain. We were walking around the horse stables, just having a gander and these people came at us yelling "Was wollen Sie hier - es gibt hier nichts zu holen! Verschwinden Sie!!!" They must have seen our West-German number plates, thus they obviously thought that we were there to size the place up and seize it. You could see the suspicion in their faces and I was bemused. Of course, once we explained our benign purpose they became quite friendly and were happy to show us around. Going back to my grandmother's birthplace was a wonderful experience in the sense that I was finally able to see the place of which I had been told so much during my childhood. We also visited my mother's birthplace. A tenement in Hoppegarten, which hadn't changed in all the years and, lucky for me, survived the Blitzkrieg. I like Berlin very much. It's a very beautiful city, full of interesting sights and people.
Overall Germany seems to be doing pretty good at the moment. People live very well there and the government is doing a lot to provide value for the taxes that citizens pay.
rapunzel
Why is the Ministry of Culture responsible for education? Shouldn't they be looking after precious German artifacts and the country's cultural heritage? I would have thought that the Ministry of Education is responsible for scholastic matters. Anyway, I am not happy with the German language curriculum and the dumbing down of German grammar and spelling.
Now in regards to East German teachers, perhaps the rationale behind making them re-qualify was to ensure that they weren't going to bring DDR attitudes and Stasi methods into West German schools. After all, education is about so much more than simply numeracy and literacy.
I love Bavaria. Though too much Catholicism and, outside of Munich, very parochial. My parents did contemplate relocating there once upon a time. They wanted to live in the Alps, but were counselled by a family friend, who hailed from there, against it. The climate was another reason ma and pa changed their minds. Instead my father did the next best thing and built a Bavarian style house in Sydney.
Major joblessness has always been a problem. I recall in the early '70s you already had to be a graduate to get an apprenticeship as a butcher/baker or garbo. I guess nothing has changed. Unemployment has always hovered in the double digits in my living memory. It is my guess that chronic unemployment of around 12 percent must be factored into German economic policy as a matter of fact. The welfare state is an economic entity in it's own right.
I am sure that much was gained when the two Germanies were re-unified. At least I was able to visit my maternal grans' birthplace. It was on the wrong side of the wall for much of my life and a place of personal fascination. My gran grew up in Hoppegarten, which during her childhood in the 1920s and '30s, was where the hoity-toity used to congregate. It also had a sizeable and permanent English population, being involved with horse racing, bookmaking and all that. There still are a few beautiful old mansions in that area, harking back to the glory days. I visited the local cemetary there, which is where my great-grandmother is buried and, to my surprise, half of the cemetary was full of English corpses. Many beautiful and ornate headstones dated back to the late 19th century and, even more surprising, the graves were still being tended unlike my great-nan's (full of weeds etc. - took us an hour to find it).
In '93, when my grandmother was still alive, we went to her birthplace and family home. It was around the time when a lot of expat East Germans, who had fled to the West even before the Wall was built, started to lodge claims over real estate left behind the iron curtain. We were walking around the horse stables, just having a gander and these people came at us yelling "Was wollen Sie hier - es gibt hier nichts zu holen! Verschwinden Sie!!!" They must have seen our West-German number plates, thus they obviously thought that we were there to size the place up and seize it. You could see the suspicion in their faces and I was bemused. Of course, once we explained our benign purpose they became quite friendly and were happy to show us around. Going back to my grandmother's birthplace was a wonderful experience in the sense that I was finally able to see the place of which I had been told so much during my childhood. We also visited my mother's birthplace. A tenement in Hoppegarten, which hadn't changed in all the years and, lucky for me, survived the Blitzkrieg. I like Berlin very much. It's a very beautiful city, full of interesting sights and people.
Overall Germany seems to be doing pretty good at the moment. People live very well there and the government is doing a lot to provide value for the taxes that citizens pay.
rapunzel
thank you
I appreciate a lot these true life experiences. IMHO they help a lot to know better each other. We won't ever be able to built Europe if everyone sticks to commonplaces when thinking of other counties.
After WWII my country has ever had the most important communist party in western europe. The "red fear" blocked normal democratic governement routine alternance : people mostly voted the christian democrats for 40 years and this party along with socialist governed Italy for four decades. Since the Mauerfall nobody felt communism as a danger yet, so the C. Dems lost their leadership and in mid 90 this party disappeared.
The former governors in the new born republic (late 40s / early 50s) were mostly poor, wise and honest people having a sense of duty / sense of state frame of mind. They felt as they had to serve all italians, and we still have to thank them for what they left to next generations.
40 years later the average politician had the butt sticked to the chair and felt his/her role as a opportunity .... corruption scandals became evident and Mani Pulite (Clean Hands) age started : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_pulite
Old ideals/fears/parties disappeared quickly in mid 90. This empty place was taken by some of the actual players : the lombard league (later "northern league") separatist party and the Berlusconi's party. Today we (would) have two parties : right and left
Love him/hate him, Berlusconi behaves more like a CEO rather than a prime minister. Hironical fact : he's kept inside democratic borders by republic president Napolitano and chamber of deputies president Fini, two men who come from former-comunist and former-fascist parties. Despite of their origins both of them have a very high democracy/state sense
Here people are getting more and more tired of polemics between left and right. Politicians have ever cared of big CO issues (read FIAT) but keep on ignoring small middle companies, that are the mayority here. Managers and workers are fed up with both right and left. The age when manager=right and worker=left are over and both parties are still @ this old commonplace. Until their wallet is full, they stick on chairs and keep on playing "political battles"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_pulite
I appreciate a lot these true life experiences. IMHO they help a lot to know better each other. We won't ever be able to built Europe if everyone sticks to commonplaces when thinking of other counties.
After WWII my country has ever had the most important communist party in western europe. The "red fear" blocked normal democratic governement routine alternance : people mostly voted the christian democrats for 40 years and this party along with socialist governed Italy for four decades. Since the Mauerfall nobody felt communism as a danger yet, so the C. Dems lost their leadership and in mid 90 this party disappeared.
The former governors in the new born republic (late 40s / early 50s) were mostly poor, wise and honest people having a sense of duty / sense of state frame of mind. They felt as they had to serve all italians, and we still have to thank them for what they left to next generations.
40 years later the average politician had the butt sticked to the chair and felt his/her role as a opportunity .... corruption scandals became evident and Mani Pulite (Clean Hands) age started : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_pulite
Old ideals/fears/parties disappeared quickly in mid 90. This empty place was taken by some of the actual players : the lombard league (later "northern league") separatist party and the Berlusconi's party. Today we (would) have two parties : right and left
Love him/hate him, Berlusconi behaves more like a CEO rather than a prime minister. Hironical fact : he's kept inside democratic borders by republic president Napolitano and chamber of deputies president Fini, two men who come from former-comunist and former-fascist parties. Despite of their origins both of them have a very high democracy/state sense
Here people are getting more and more tired of polemics between left and right. Politicians have ever cared of big CO issues (read FIAT) but keep on ignoring small middle companies, that are the mayority here. Managers and workers are fed up with both right and left. The age when manager=right and worker=left are over and both parties are still @ this old commonplace. Until their wallet is full, they stick on chairs and keep on playing "political battles"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_pulite
