Maytag A207 starting problem?

[dustin92]

I've noticed since I got my near-mint A207 (1974 model) that it's always seemed to take a second to start agitation or spin, longer than the 1980 A308 that it replaced. Today I had a load running and I needed to use the microwave to heat up leftovers for lunch (yes, our microwave is in the laundry room, kitchen doesn't have any good place for one!) We have never had any issues in the past, as long as it's only the washer *or* dryer running while the microwave is being used. Only the washer and microwave running, washer finished agitation and paused, then I heard an odd hum from the laundry room- I started running for the laundry room and before I got there, all went silent (microwave, washer, tv in the living room) a fuse had blown. Lifted the lid on the washer, went and replaced the fuse. I'm assuming the centrifugal switch didn't kick out, and the extra current draw popped the fuse. All seems fine now, no burning smells after it happened, so I'm assuming the washer is fine. Have run several loads today, and it's working fine, but still starting a bit slowly. Is this something to be concerned about or just business as usual? Just worried I could have trouble around the corner.

 

[akronman]

hmmm

How old are the belts? Genuine Maytag brand belts are crucial for proper performance. Also, have you ever lubed the motor glides? Are they nice and round, or worn and flat?
Belts and motor glides are EASY fixes

 

[dustin92]

I haven't done anything with the belts or motor glides, though the belts are genuine Maytag and appear to be in good condition. How would I inspect or lube the motor glides? Looked at them when I got the washer but can't see how to get to them.

 

[DADoES]

 
Remove the front panel.  The motor may need to be pulled for good access to the glide plate.

 

[delaneymeegan]

Adequate electric wiring is crucial for all the appliances you apparently have plugged into the SAME circuit.
Each should be on it's own dedicated circuit.

Microwaves draw a lot of electricity and should be plugged into a 20 amp outlet by itself.

Televisions, especially the older style, should not have to compete with major appliances as those constant surges can damage the TV. A typical 15 Amp circuit is fine.

The Maytag motor starts at least 4 times during a cycle. At start up there is a split second draw of electricity that can be up to 4 times the wattage of what the appliance draws when fully operating. If it has to compete with other appliances, it won't start, will overheat, could damage the motor, and will continue to fry your wiring and blow fuses. A 15 Amp circuit is fine, AS LONG as there are no other appliances on the same circuit.

Do you seriously have fuses? Like screw-in type, 1950s fuses? Cuz, I love that. I need to see a picture, please.
Is the washer plugged into a 2 prong outlet using an adapter? I need to see a picture of that, too please.

 

[dustin92]

It's definitely not plugged into a two prong outlet with an adapter, although we do have quite a few two prong outlets in the house. Yes, 1950's style screw in fuses. Rarely ever blow one though. Rewiring and seperating circuits isn't an option right now, but is in the plans if we ever win the lottery... The weird thing is, no other washer has ever caused a problem, not even the 11.5 amp-drawing Norge-Tag (Maytag Performa). The A207 is supposed to draw 7 amps, so I figured it would be fine. I can try to snap a picture of the fuse panel, but promise me you won't take out life insurance policies on us!

 

[swestoyz]

Even if the glide isn't in perfect operation the washer should still in theory agitate with ease.  More than likely the oil in the transmission has become thick and gooey which will become a common issue as the 60's and 70's Maytags that are in operation age.  The old oil not only causes the gears to bind but the top agitator shaft can bind in the upper housing due to a lack of good lubrication as the oil no longer splashes up to keep the upper bearings wet.  The typical symptom is very slow agitation when the machine has sat without use for a day or so and often times after a few minutes of agitation the speed will increase close to normal.

 

I've included a video below that will walk through rebuilding the motor glide with the 205000 kit.  The kit will include four new square glides and enough poly lube to do the job.  Otherwise, if the slow agitation issue persists you may need to determine if the washer is worth a transmission rebuild or not.  There are several threads here in AW that walk through the rebuild process quite nicely.

 

Good luck!

 

Ben

http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIdfBEv8fec

 

[combo52]

Stiff Transmission Top Bearings

And old oil are often problems in the older style MT helical drive washer transmissions, often too a little water gets past the top water seals and can even size the agitator shaft in the top transmission bearings. This and completely worn out damper assemblies [ down to the metal ] are the two most frequent reasons that our customers give up on their MT washers.

 

I always thought it might be an interesting experiment to drill a hole in the side of a MT pit-man style transmission and change the oil to some much better new oil and leave the washer on its side for a few days or longer so the oil could get into the top bearing area and see if this would revive an old transmission. The drilled hole in the aluminum transmission case could easily be tapped and plugged to seal the oil in after it was changed.

 

This might be a good experiment for one of the MT fans in the group.

 

PS Hi Dustin, When these two belt MT helical drive washers have problems starting it is easy to add a motor start capacitor in the start winding circuit. MT was too cheap to include a capacitor as standard equipment but always offered one as an accessory when customers had starting and fuse blowing problems with their washers.

 

John L.

 

[dustin92]

How would I go about adding a capacitor? The problem isn't really with agitation or spin (will run a little slow for a couple minutes), but with the motor starting. It starts up with a grrrrrrrrrr click. It takes a couple seconds to start up sometimes, especially going into spin. I don't think it's having problems with the transmission, everything turns smooth and easily by hand, and it's a VERY low use machine. It would surprise me if it's done more than a couple hundred loads over it's 41 years.

 

[swestoyz]

Dustin -

 

I certainly hope the issue is solely the motor.  I will mention that I've seen several low use or even an NOS 60's Maytag that was never used where the oil turned to sludge.  Low use doesn't necessarily mean that the oil will be perfect.  Often times it actually can do the opposite and breakdown over time from non-use.

 

If you want to isolate the issue to just the motor, you can remove the drive belt and push the motor forward a bit so the shaft doesn't drag on the base plate.  Start the washer up and if the motor continues to act similarly then you know you have a motor issue.  Otherwise, during spin the belts are designed to slip enough during take-off AND the motor should pull forward (towards the rear of the machine) on the glide enough that the centrifugal start switch should instantly be satisfied enough to switch over to the run side of the motor. 

 

Ben

 

[dustin92]

I think it's drawing a lot more than 7 amps on startup, even if only for a couple seconds- lights dim and the tv picture starts to close up. It rarely has any trouble starting agitation, but almost every spin, where it would have the heaviest load on the motor. I've noticed it is worse when other things on the same circuit are running, as if it can't draw enough current to get the rpm's up for the start winding to kick out. Everything turns smooth and easily by hand, even when cold. Would installing a capacitor help reduce the current needed to start the motor?

 

[delaneymeegan]

It could be the motor was shot even before you got it.

I would love to see the old wiring- outlets, fuse box(s), knob and tube wiring, etc. I love that stuff, for the same reason I like old appliances.

 

[dustin92]

delaneymeegan,

I don't think the motor is shot, it runs great once it gets started, never any burning electrical smell or anything, and has plenty of power. Our house was built in 1950, so no knob and tube wiring, but we do have the old cloth wrapped wire in the majority of the house and old style outlets. I think the kitchen was renovated sometime in the 70's or so, so there is a seperate breaker panel off of the fuse box, and the kitchen is all new grounded outlets. Some of the basement has been rewired, and there are a couple old dead outlets in the floor of the basement.

 

[alr2903]

Dustin does your utility room get chilly?  Years ago I had an old center timer Tag that would act up in cold weather to the point I would use whatever "other" washer I had at the time.  We do not have a true basement kind of 1/2 below grade and truthfully not enough heat down there.  Thought I would mention it.  No doubt has to do with aging trans oil and other lubricated parts.  Arthur

 

 

[dustin92]

It can get cold, but when the furnace is running it can be the warmest room in the house.. The laundry room upstairs where it is located is on the main floor and was originally a tiny bedroom that was converted years ago. The door is always open to the rest of the house, but we keep the house very cool at night, usually turning the heat down to around 64, then up to around 68-70 during the day. Cool by some standards, maybe the Maytag is a summer only machine lol? Really would like to have it working properly, but if it comes down to transmission problems, I will probably have to let it go I don't have the knowledge to rebuild the transmission.

 

[alr2903]

I hope you get it sorted out and repaired.  I let mine go too long and it seized up.  I loved to hear it washing. -A

 

[LaVidaBoem]

No, you don't have to let it go...

Now look; we are all here to help each other...

A tranny replacement is nothing in that thing, or a motor, or anything for that matter.

You a have a drag startiing the drum/tranny AND a low voltage condition, I promise you.

Find one of your electrical buddies to help you if power "ain't your thing", and take a SWEEP type meter like a Simpson, (any one will work) and hook it up to the proper wires for spin AT the motor.
Have him put his clamp on-amp meter on ONE of the above mentioned leads, and check both with a full wash tub of clothes in COLD water to get all the drag measured electically.

You are going to find that a "TAG" (never in my life have I heard such blasphemy ) can pull up to 20+ amps for .5 to 1.5 seconds.

If you don't have a dedicated circuit of at least 15 amps...no go.
AND don't let HIM forget that amperage goes WAY up AS Voltage goes DOWN.
So you see, you are compounding your problem with low voltage.

Now with all that said, all it every is:
The tub spin bearing sleave,
The Transmission,
Dragging brake...

and do on.

Let us know what you find.

If you need a tranny, any of us that do this full time or part time can get if we don't already have a tranny for under a C note...Really!
Good luck, and let us know,

LaVidaBoem

Post Script: And you can always get a heavy drop cord 12/14 gauage and run to that thing off ANOTHER circuit to at least see if that improves your readings.

 

[dustin92]

I could try running it to another circuit temporarily, and see if that improves things. It's currently running on old 1950's wiring, a circuit likely 15 amps or less. There is a modern 20 amp circuit in the kitchen I can run a cord to.

 

[kb0nes]

Well shoot, that is likely your problem. Do you have a DMM or VOM? Measure the voltage at the outlet while the motor is trying to start. If it drops more then 10% the washer is fine and the sagging line voltage is the issue.

 

[LaVidaBoem]

That'a Boy...that's what we want to hear.

Sounds Great!!

Never Give IN, Never give UP,...you will triumph!!

Good Luck,

LaVidaBoem

 

[LaVidaBoem]

Digital Meter VS. Analog

Hey all,

The reason you need the analog hand sweep meter is that during start, the needle will sweep fast and fall back to the run position.
The RATE of the movement of the meter needle is crucial in determining the problem.
You cannot (human eyes) read a digital meter fast enough to know the problem.

Hope this Helps,

LaVidaBoem

 

[kb0nes]

Digital Meter VS. Analog

No doubt that digital meters make following trends more difficult, but your generalization isn't really fair.

I bought my first DMM in 1981 (Fluke 77) I now have 4 others along with it (all flukes, all digital). With the exception of my HP distortion analyzer, and some RF bench instruments, I don't own any analog meters anymore and I don't miss them.

Half decent DMM's today have much faster response and even the inexpensive models have a responsive bargraph to watch trends.

And in fact, all but my oldest DMM will do a Minimum/Maximum recording (something analog won't do). For this application you plug in the meter, start the motor then read the minimum voltage, slick!! It works really well for testing cranking voltage on vehicles too.

In short any meter will troubleshoot Dustin's line voltage under starting load, he has a second or two after all.

 

[dustin92]

All I've got as far as a multimeter is a cheapie (freebie!) digital one from Harbor freight. Will give it a try and see if it works. Should I just set it to AC volts and shove the probes in a socket on the same circuit? Last time I checked we were running about 118v.

 

[combo52]

You NEED a motor start capacitor, I can't believe how long this is is being drug out, it will make a big difference whether your problem is low voltage, or a less than perfect motor carriage and drive belt.

 

[LaVidaBoem]

I couldn't agree more...

But,
Do you think the average member can wire in a start capacitor?
And yes, there are many dmm that would have fancy stuff, like my snap-ons, but for 10 dollars, he could have a old analog, right?

OK, we have beat this one enough,

Dustin, hope you getter' done!

LaVidaBoem

 

[dustin92]

With instructions I'm pretty sure I can wire in a capacitor, it's just wired in line with the start winding, right? If someone could put me in the right direction of what capacitor I need to use and what wire it needs to be wired into, I think I could manage that.

 

[tolivac]

Did the motor in question originally have a start cap?If not just adding one may not help with a motor that didn't originally have a start cap.And the problem of wiring it into the circuit.I feel that a low voltage problem may be here-poor wiring-the person says that the circuit has old cabling.And the connections on the outlet may be a fault,too.Agree on the meters-new digital meters with hold functions are easier to track trends than an analog meter you have to watch-and your eyes still may not be fast enough to see the drop on the meter unless the meter has a heavly dampted movement.Newer digital clamp ammeters like the voltmeters have min-max hold functions.Makes you want to leave the ol' Simpson 260 in the toolbox!Oh on the cap if the motor orig had one-maybe-just maybe the one you have is bad or weak.And is the transmission or spin function of the washer turn easy by hand?How bout the pump-not jammed?Any of those will lug down your motor and stall it if they are bad.

 

[combo52]

Does Anyone Read My Posts?

I said that MT offered an service capacitor kit for this and ANY MT DC two belt washer that did not originally come with one just for SITUATIONS like this.

 

It is very hard to cure a slightly low voltage problem like this in a home, you all can debate about bad outlets, wiring loading of circuits all month long but none of it will make any real difference.

 

I have been dealing with problems like this every working day in peoples homes for around 40 years now.

 

You can simply use the motor start capacitor from any WP built DD washer for instance, it will not harm the motor or the start winding, you could even wire in two capacitors in parallel with each other for an extra kick.

 

To wire in the capacitor you remove the wire at the motor going to the start winding and plug it on one of the terminals of the SC then take another piece of wire and go from the other terminal of the SC and back to the motor.

 

Dustin, you can always contact me if you have any questions, John L.

 

[alr2903]

John, would a "start capacitor" help?

 

[dustin92]

This is all getting confusing to me, I'm getting different stories from every direction, and I'm not sure where to start. I might take a look at the motor glides and make sure everything is moving smoothly, then? Not a clue form there. The washer is still working fine, as long as there's no other high draw appliance running on the same circuit. I've done several loads without issues.