Micro twin-tubs

[Designgeek]

(I started this thread so as to not digress the "defeating a lid switch" topic.)

Tolivac, I agree, 1600 rpm could turn my hand into "handburger" in a second. What I was thinking of was the ability to pour water through the spinner as per oldschool spin/rinse practice in the UK.

The micro-twinnies are not sale samples, they are intended for dorms, campers/RVs, apartments, etc. Controls appear to be: wash timer, normal/gentle selector, and spin timer. Water input via hose from the faucet, into a hose inlet on top (to the left of the control knobs). Water output via gravity discharge hose (if the machine sits on your kitchen counter, you just hang the hose into the sink to drain it, no pump needed).

I just posted a link for a page where these are sold. However! They are wired for UK mains current: 240 volts AC at 50 hz. USA is 120 volts AC at 60 hz, and the frequency difference (50 hz vs. 60 hz) could kill the motors (and start a fire?) even if you get a voltage converter. Also I don't think it would be possible to just buy one and see about finding new motors to install in it; most modern appliances are designed such that you can't use "generic" components.

I phoned the company at that link and they wrote back saying they'd need to have someone order a container-full before they were able to get them manufactured for USA power.

However, I also contacted Real Goods, which is the leading place for solar and off-grid stuff in the USA, and sent them pictures and contact infos, and talked to their design guy. He said it sounded very interesting. So there is a chance that Real Goods would order enough of these to get them made up for USA power.

www.realgoods.com, look for the contact page and phone or email telling them you want one. Also phone or email the place in England, so now both sides (UK manufacturer's agent, and USA retailer) are hearing it. Where demand grows, supply goes.

And yes, even if you're not a twintub enthusiast, these things would be quite practical for taking on vacation trips, and certainly the spin function is better than having to wring clothes out by hand as is the case with every other micro-washer. Or in a dorm, same deal. No drip-dry dripping on the floor (or worse, the carpet).

I would guess that if Real Goods decides to carry these, it'll take from 6 - 9 months to get them here: manufacturer's time to build with appropriate motors, and then shipping time, and port-of-entry clearance delays. However, worth waiting for. If they produce a 12-volt-DC model for people who are using off-grid power, I can think of a close friend I'd give one as a present, since he's on a small solar system and presently has to hand-wash or go some distance to a laundromat.

ajmshopping.co.uk

 

[tolivac]

Interesting-pretty neat-a real portable washer.I looked at the picture of the machine in your link-reminds me of a Hoover twin tub or an Old Easy.On the motors-at the transmitter site I am working at I am operating 50Hz motors from 60Hz power right now.One of the transmitters I am using at this time was built in Germany.It is loaded with 50Hz motors.-how it works is this-A transformer in the transmitter steps the incoming 4160V 3Ph building power to 380V 3ph.The pump and blower motors are 380V 3ph 50 hz-the motors just run faster.They even run cooler than the 50Hz power.-less losses.In the washer you would neeed to change the pulleys to compensate for the motor running faster on the 60Hz power(if its an induction motor as the ones in the transmitter)Now that would be a FAST spin!!Al in all though its not a real good idea.-in the case of the washer.I have also dealt with that problem in the case of TT motors and tape deck motors running from 50Hz or 60Hz power. The machine maker(TT or tape machine) provides the pulleys to adapt the motor speed for the frequency.This has happened -not only with that transmitter-but tape decks and turntables sent overseas for use by our agency I work for there.I had to install the proper pulleys on the motors so they would run at the right speed-imagine that for that washer-could be done.At my house I have a few "Real Goods" catalogs-they are several years old though-sort of interesting to look thru.I like in it they show rebuilt Kirbys sold for folks to use-one of the people that worked at Real Goods rebuilds them.On the lid of the spinner-I wonder if it could be possible to add a little spout or hole to pour water in it while its going with the lid shut-and even make the lid clear so you could see.

 

[westytoploader]

I've searched for twin-tubs and found hundreds of different designs under hundreds of different manufacturers all over the world. Would be neat to try each one out to see what the wash action is like.

I noticed this portable TT has the same type of wash impeller that's in the Chinese "Little Duck" transparent washer that I see on eBay.

 

[pulsator]

Oh man!!!! I want one!!!! I wish they were sold in the US, well, without having to change anything. They are so cute!!! And they have that awesome clear plastic so you can see it wash like a demo machine or something!!!

 

[westytoploader]

I'm really this close to planning a trip for us to Monterrey, Mexico so I can buy a Hoover compact washer down there. From what I've seen in pictures, the only thing that's changed is the exterior colors. I wouldn't be surprised if I opened the lid and saw Hoover's 6-vane side impeller!!!

They've got some really cool appliances there...too bad they're not importing any.

Here's the Koblenz website if anyone hasn't seen it yet. GREAT washers there!

http://www.koblenz-electric.com

 

[mrcleanjeans]

mini twini

that Koblenz twin-tub looks virtually identical to the twin tub Danbys sold here.

 

[kenmore1978]

cycle difference

Motors don't really care much about the frequency difference they just a run little bit slower or faster. Voltage obviously much more of an issue. Electronic stuff is picky about frequency since it would throw off the various frequncies in tuners, oscillators, and such.

 

[kenmore1978]

50/60 Hz

Ironically, many systems here used to be 50 Hz, some places even had 25 Hz. One of the big utilities here (Southern California Edison) was 50 Hz until 1948. When they switched over, they set up storefronts where people could bring their appliances to be converted. In our "protectionist" way, the appliance companies lobbied Congress to make 60 Hz the standard in order to keep out foreign appliances.

 

[Designgeek]

Telephone bells ring on 20 hz, I'm surprised anyone used 25 hz for AC mains power.

Tolivac, are you suggesting that I could just change out the wall plug on the UK micro-twin to a USA wall plug and the only side-effect would be that the motors ran faster? If so maybe I'll get one as a guinea-pig case.

The Koblenz twin-tub is actually pretty different from the Danby. One, Koblenz apparently uses a pulsator/impeller which might cause tangling; Danby uses a standard agitator. Two, Koblenz appears to have (though I'm not certain; even the enlarged picture is not very clear) a selector switch allowing water to be sprayed into the spinner for spin/rinse/extract function, which is a feature Danby doesn't have but many of the 1950s-60s machines did have also.

Koblenz' range really surprised me. The only one I've seen listed in USA websites and Ebay is one of their compacts, the LC4525 or one that looks a lot like it, but for much smaller loads. This is typically available for a pretty low price; though the gravity drain function could be inconvenient if you don't have a floor drain.

And Koblenz makes a wringer washer, nd various other round washers of similar type without ringer, in *colors*. And their automatics are designed with all parts serviceable via a removable *front* panel. Hmm...! They could certainly benefit from better marketing in the USA.

Back to the micro-twin: the impeller is similar to most of the micro-washer impellers in a general sense. It seems Hoover invented the impeller/pulsator about 1948 or so and used it in a range of compacts, some having wringers.

Re. the proliferation of twins out there: Yeah, hundreds; these things are still apparently highly popular in many places. The different wash systems include one wherein the impeller/pulsator apparently has fins like a pump impeller on the underside, which drive water up through channels in the corner of the washtub, where it cascades back down through the holes in the channels and back through the load. Also in many cases there are perforations in the impeller, which have something to do with trapping air into the water currents and causing it to bubble up through the water as a kind of counter-current to the downward spiral of the water itself.

It would be interesting to run a bunch of comparative tests.

 

[tolivac]

Motors and frequency-If you have an induction motor originally designed for 60 hz power you wouldn't want to run it on 50Hz.If you do it could overheat.However-the 50Hz motors may operate on the 60Hz power and run faster.That was the case on some tape machines I dealt with.They had the 50Hz or 60Hz capstans to put on the capstan motor.Than the capstan motor would move the tape thru the transport at the proper speed.The rewind anf FF modes of the machine would be faster on 60Hz.In the case of that spinner washer-a concern would be that it could spin the extractor tub too fast.Like the tape machine you would need the approriate pulley to slow the tub speed down.All this is assuming the machine has an induction motor.I am assuming that it does since induction motors are most common in appliances.Instead of taking my suggestions-the best course of action is to contact the machine manufacturer.It would be bad to get the unit and find it burns up or "levitates" from an accesssive spin basket speed.
On the reference to the 25Hz frequency-Many electric RR locomotives used this-DC motors could run off this without rectification.The frequency was low enough that the DC motor could run from it.GG1 locomotives ran from 25Hz.Amtrack used them.Sadly they have been retired now because the 25Hz systems have been converted to 60Hz.The transformers and motors in the GG1 and other 25Hz locos can't run from it.Also the older locos had PCB filled transformers.these had to be drained when the loco was retired-even if its transformer was still good.And some of the GG1's had frame and wheel cracks making them no longer safe to operate.These could go to 100+ MPH.
50Hz power is still used in UK and europe.the transformers in the transmitters I use here that were built in Switzerland and Germany(using them right now)their transformers could run from 50 or 60 hz power.In theory the transformer would run with less loss from the 60 hz power-and since they supply rectifiers in the transmitter-less ripple filtering needed.The filters have the capacitance and reactors for 50Hz-the output of the supply is very smooth for 15Kv and 30Kv DC.Also on the induction motors-Years ago I used to have an Altec-Lansing 250W amp that came from a drive-in movie theater that powered the car speakers.I connected an audio generator to its input and an old teletype motor to the output of the amp.The motor was rated for 60Hz-It could run as low as 40Hz,but got both the amp and motor very hot(plates of the amp tubes glowed)to 120Hz-the motor was running at DOUBLE its speed(1800RPM now to 3600) and it ran with lower losses-motor ran cool along with the amp.
Again the 25Hz power systems were common with electric RR systems.Many of the RR's generated it themselves-there own powerplants-or bought power from the commercial companies and converted it to 25Hz with VERY LARGE motor-generator sets.-60Hz motor turning a 25Hz generator.This was long before solid-state conversion.

 

[pulsator]

This would be the matching (kind of) dryer!!

ajmshopping.co.uk

 

[kenmore1978]

25 Hz

Here's the story. Very interesting

Sorry, page not found

IEEE is the world's largest technical professional organization dedicated to advancing technology for the benefit of humanity.

www.ieee.org

 

[tolivac]

25 Hz

Excellent link-sums it up!The GG1's used to run into the DC area-Amtrack used them into the 70's when their ASEA or GE locomotives failed on the Metroliner-they pulled it with a Good-ol reliable GG1!With the later systems they converted to 60 hz power.The Metroliners had solid state systems and could run from 25 hz or 60 hz power.the first of their kind and could go to 125MPH. Used on trains that went between DC and New York City-gave good competition to the airlines DC-New York shuttles!The ol "Westy" GG1's made excellent backups to the newer locos!Was sad to see them go-Amtrack even painted one to celebrate the Bicentnnial in 1976.Last time I heard about them.

 

[Cybrvanr]

electric trains

Railroad power systems are pretty fascinating. One of the things I enjoy studying is the New York subway system, that was very innovative and technologically advanced for 1903. Because in 1903, there were different power systems in the city (Edison vs Westinghouse) and some neighborhoods were not even electrified yet, the subway system built and ran their own power plant up until 1959 that produced both 25hz power for the trains, and 60hz for station illumination. Today, they operate right off the rest of the power grid. The subway's power system though provided reduncency in the case of failure though. If municipal power went out, the subway system could still function.

The trains themselves ran on DC, and the 25 hz needed to be converted. At the time, the only way to rectify the AC power was with a rotary converter. In substations, Power was stepped down, and sent to the rotary converters. A huge thing that looked like a generator that spun in phase with the power, and switched the polarity at the same frequency as the AC power. 25hz was used instead of 60 at the time because it was easier to design the mechanical converters for it. The 600 volts from the substation was then distributed to the third rail, where it would run the train. There were many substations along the train routes, which were designed to be architectually similar to the homes in their occupying neighborhoods, so they would blend in.

Oddly enough, the newest subway trains actually convert the DC on the third rail back into AC within the train itself. The newest trains use PWM controllers to provide more efficiency and better speed control. The DC metrorail is 100% AC on board the trains, (not sure if third rail is AC though) and the sound of the PWM's can be heard within some of the earlier trains. New York is still DC in many of their rail cars, which date back to the sixties, but their newest ones, built by Bombardier, are all AC powered.

Check out the web site below for some totally fascinating and detailed technical informaiton from when the New York subway system was originally designed. There's also hundreds of pictures of the rail cars and stations over the years.

nycsubway.org

 

[chestermikeuk]

Pulsator Twinnies!!!!

A pity that so many of the original machines and companies have now gone, I wouldnt want to use one all the time but are great fun for a trip down memory lane.

It really does depend on how you use it as to the efficiency of them, have myself done numerous tests with the front loader v twinnies and have come to the conclusion that modern FL have the edge of washing rinsing and spinning effeciency on the 1200 + machines.

Just posted some pics of Hoover Pulsator Action Machines in the clubs album, see link below...

Its interesting that the design of this small twinny is the same principle as the Rolls machines from the 60`s etc...

Take a look and let me know what you think???

p.s. The pic is from a 1960 AEG twinny

http://automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/00ShowCollectionGETD.cgi?dir=/COLLECTIONS/CHESTERMIKEUK/

 

[tolivac]

DC subway systems

Cbybrvanr-
The DC Metro system trains now all have AC traction motors powered from Variable Frequency Drives.the AC motors are induction motors designed to operate from variable frequency power.The third rail DC power is converted to Variable frequency AC in the converter.You can hear them like on the older PWM DC trains.The older Budd train cars have been converted to Variable Frequency Drive like the newer Breda train cars.Metro purchased these cars from Breda Co in Italy.The Breda cars had the VFD AC drives.The AC motors are cheaper to maintain-no brushes to replace or communtators to dress.The AC motors are the same HP as the DC ones-150 Hp per motor.Beleive there were 4 motors per car.VFD drives are used in modern Deisel electric mainline locos now.
Will need to read the material in your link-its very good-need time to "digest" it.New York is famous for its electric train systems-they are well over 100 Years old!!Know someone who lived and worked in NYC. I lived in DC area for over 20+ years.Oh-if you are riding in the Metro-you can tell the Breda cars-have a large Breda nameplate at the front of the car.-near the ceiling.Also I have seen a paperclip laying on the floor of the car STAND UP ON END when the train was accelerating.It then fell back down when the train was "cruising" then back up again when it was braking for a stop.Figure one of the traction motor converters was under the clip-or a motro itself. The converters have reactors in them -like the motor that can generate a strong magnetic feild.while riding-be aware what you put on the floor.If it is something with a magnetic record-play media-such as a cassette,magnetic computer discs-you may not want to put those on the car floor while riding.
Also PWM cicuits are in some of the SW AM transmitters I operate-Used to derive the modulation for the final RF stage in the transmitter.Its an efficient means of modulation.So PWM can be used to modulate an AM transmitter as well as run a DC motor.the motor is running from a chopped waveform-square waves-the motor still sees it as DC.
anyway got study the material in your link-its fascinating!
I have also seen the "converter" stations that convert the commercial AC power to 3rd rail DC-750VDC for Metro-they are non-descript buildings along the Metro track routes with large transformers beside the building. The building contains the recifiers to recify the secondaries of the transformers.-then feed it to the track 3rd rail.If you ride and watch carefully-you can see the stations.One near the Vieanna subway stop.

 

[westytoploader]

Cool TTs and single-tubs Mike!! I saw a Hoover single-tub similar to the 1947 model on eBay in Canada; it was in decent shape...should have bid. I also saw a Canadian Kenmore TT (UK Hotpoint clone with the filter-flo) and I really regret not bidding on that!!

The machines in your collection that I like the most are the compact power-wringer equipped Hoovers, Rolls Rapide, and the (cute) Servis Powerglide. I saw pictures of the Powerglide washing and that was some VERY good impeller water action!

How does the Rolls Rapide water jet action work? The curved impeller also looks extremely effective and fun...

 

[Designgeek]

Tolivac, interesting point about motors being operable on either frequency. I think I'm going to guinea-pig test one of these things and see what happens. If I do it, and it works, y'all will be the first to know.

Pulsator, re. matching micro-dryer: Very interesting! For folks who haven't checked the link, it's a dryer that's 19" wide x 20" high x about 12" deep, holds a load of about 3#, and runs on about 700 watts (600 watts for the heater, 100 watts for the motor). The specs in the link say it will run on 110 volts / 60 hz, so there is probably some info on the schematics for moving a wire or two internally to accomplish this, or it'll work right out of the box (with a new plug put on the wire). In any case, this would be perfect for finish-drying occasional things that take longer to dry on the indoor clothes lines. I'm thinking of ordering one.

Re. old rail & subway links: interesting details about the entire construction process too, including moving underground utilities and pinning foundations of adjacent buildings. Holy cow, try doing all of that today. We really missed our chance to have subways in most of our major cities. Damn shame. Having used the NYC subway system whenever I've visited there, it's the best urban transportation utility I've ever seen. Simple to use, fastest thing in town, inexpensive, good mix of new and vintage, goes everywhere, runs 24/7.

When riding on those electric rail systems, definitely put your laptop bag on your lap to keep it away from the ambient EM fields near the floor, else your hard drive could get corrupted.

Mike, interesting photos there. Those early Hoovers looked like the paradigm of simplicity: nothing powered except the pulsator; large numbers of those must have lasted a long while. I don't doubt that some of the modern FLs are higher-efficiency than any older technology. The overall balance of performance, cost, space requirements, and installation issues helps keep older types of machines in the market, even including some that drain by gravity such as the low-cost Koblenz (single tub, pulsator, no spin cycle if I recall correctly) that one sees on Ebay from time to time.

 

[pulsator]

I have a friend of the family who knows a lot about this voltage stuff and he said that there are special transformers you can buy for running a larger peice of equipment than a hairdryer or something, like a washing machine. Anyway, he said that they are probably about $100.00. What do you guys think? Would it work?