Miele G7100SCi

[henene4]

Not even 550€ for NIB machine like that - who could leave that offer sitting around if you were needing a DW anyways since you were moving?

So, I had to move (long story) (coming soon to a forum near you) and needed a DW.
Was thinking freestanding as that would have been cheaper on the kitchen furniture side of things.
Was looking at Bauknecht for about 500€.

And then this happend:
We had an offer at work that was half off of the MSRP for certain integrated appliances.
And somebody at headquarters must have gotten wrong directions - or they wanted to rid old high price stock.

So, they half priced this Miele DW. Plus my employee discount, I got it for under 550€.

Since I am currently living alone and only moved in like not even 2 weeks ago, I didn't do much with it yet.

Loading is interesting, still getting used to the upper rack. Spacing the lower rack with pots and stuff is still a learing curve.
But plates take up nearly no space in there.
So it does have capacity.

AutoOpen is working like charme.

I am currently using Finish liquid I got for cheap in bulk.
Horrible detergent.
So I activated the Extra Clean and Extra Dry options.

They moved the filter to the center around the spray arm, stream lined the run off surfaces, cut away the metal top spray arms, removed EVERY downward facing hole on the middle spray arm, moved the water feed tubes for the spray arms to the inside of the tank, split them up (they are 2 seperate spray zones from what I can tell now, but I might be wrong).

And they added their EcoPower technology.

So what exactly is EcoPower technology?

It's Electroluxes impuls washing technology!
Yeah, they just copied that.
On the Eco cycle I noticed it during the main wash after the heating. Low washing with high pulses and some cavitation towards the end of those high pressure pulses.
They however extended that to pulsed intermediate rinsing. I do assume they use these on Eco as well, though I haven't confirmed that yet.
But on low load low soil Auto cycles, the DW does do a complete drain - fill - drain for the interim rinse, however the interim rinse is 3 second ish pulses with 10 second or so pauses in between for like 5-10 min.
Pump does cavitate towards the end of the pulses.

Maybe the pulses are pump sensed (cavitation -> lower rpm).

As I said, ran maybe 5 loads so far.

More as I learn!

 

[henene4]

[No message]

 

[toploader55]

Handsome looking Machine

 

[henene4]

Just a load

 

[henene4]

A couple minutes into the main wash

 

[henene4]

Heating done

The pump stops for detergent dispensing, then starts backs up again and a couple seconds later the heater switches back in.
Heating takes place at a constant medium-low pump speed.

This time it added 10min before heating.

Once heating finishes, pulsed washing begins.
Main speed is something medium with short pulses into a high speed.
Timing is like 2sec medium 2sec high.

 

[henene4]

A few weeks in

So, a review:

TL;DR:
For what I paid for this machine (on par with a BSH machine with Zeolith) I really can't complain.
If I had paid original price for it, I would be somewhat bummed. It's not bad, but IMO not worth 1100€.
Unless you just want a DW that runs and runs and that you do not worry about, that you do not challenge and that dosen't have to perform exceptional, buy the cheapest Miele with AutoOpen you can find and buy the 10 year warranty.
Otherwise, look for something else.

What is there to say about a DW?

Loading: Well, it is a Miele.
Maybe it is just me living alone with more pans to handle, but I feel like I can't load quite as much in it as in a Bosch.
The upper rack might have a little more headspace than a BSH machine with cuttlery drawer and being abled to slant the upper rack is really nice. The lower rack appears to have more usable height for each setting aswell.
But the cup etagers on the upper rack right side intrude a lot into the rack. Am thinking of removing mine tbh.
The MultiComfort area is a cool idea, but I don't think it gives significantly more space than other setups.
The cutlery drawer is a must have on this design of DW I think and it is really good, probably niceer than any other.

Cycles: Lots of options, everything makes sense. Nothing special.

Operation in general: Nice and quiet. Pretty damn efficent. Highest usage I cought reported was 18l when it regenerated the water softner on a full load on Auto. Never more than 1.4kWh.

Results:
Washing is just what you expect. If you load it correctly, everything gets immaculatly clean.
Even the Eco cycle is suprisingly usabel, probably more capable than a BSH one though using less.
Part of that is probably the ultra efficently designed pump and sump. They packed the optical sensor and then main NTC into the sump and routed the water feed for the lower spray arm right through the center of the filter AND for the upper spray arms along the side of the sump effectivley reducing the amount of water needed per fill by probably like 0.15gal or so. The pump is right beside the sump and routs the water down through the diverter I would guess.
Drying is a thing. I would say it is certainly better than a normal DW with static drying. If you run the DW over night or through the day and only unload it like a couple of hours after the cycle finishes it certainly is pretty good.

But here comes the big thing that bugs me.

You see, it has been kind of a thing that was given that plastics stay damp.
That there is water in the cups.

And this Miele is pretty good with things.
You don't burn your fingers when you unload it even right after the cycle is done.
A couple of hours after the cycle is done plastics are mostly dry. So it is fine.

But BSHs Zeolith drying (CrystalDry I think it is called in the US) is just so much better.
It is just as efficent.
It is faster (drying stages here last 50min regulary, on BSH they were often half that).
It dries better - without having to wait hours after the cycle finished.
Plastics are just basicly completly dry right from the getgo.
Cups and such are way drier.

The cycles on these machines are just so slow.
Don't get me wrong, the DW dosen't waste any time. Washes, rinses and drying are as long as they have to be.
But gee 3h on the regular are just more than needed if I can have the same results WITH THE SAME EFFICENCY in 2/3 that.
The Eco might be anothing thing as BSHs A+++ -10% Eco cycle is 3:45h and here it is just shy of 4h in day to day use.

That's another thing: Our BSH machine barely ever ran full time sensor washes. They are estimated with 2:30h on those Bosch machines but even with pretty crammed loads it would often run just about 2h.
Here as soon as it is a full load it will run a full Auto cycle that just takes 3h.
Yes, the BSH 2h and Miele 3h cycle are basicly the same cycle using the same amount of water and energy with a major difference being the BSH having the ability to extend the main wash another 20min and adding another interim rinse.
But that means the Bosch could step the performance up another level.

Durability wise I am somewhat torn though.
BSH machines have some questionable repairability choices like heater, pumpm AND NTC being one (though fairly cheap to replace) unit.
Further the Zeolith system adds some comlexity.
And none of that seems particulary durable (they seem to last in the 6-8 year range).

But Mieles are known to "only" last like 10 or so years as well.
Does that really make them worth while?
Especially at the astronomical prices of parts.

So yeah.

The machine is by no means bad.
It is certainly far better built than anything.
It performs well enough.

But I wouldn't say it is miles ahead and worth 1100€ regular price.

If you just want a well performing DW, buy the cheapest BSH machine with Zeolith/CrystalDry you can find that has a cuttlery drawer.
These are about 600€ over here, so a little over half, wash just as great, dry far better and are way faster while being basicly just as efficent.

If you got any question feel free to ask.

 

[jerrod6]

Thanks for your review Henrik. I was wondering how the 7xxx series worked. I have a 6987 since the USA has not moved to the 7 series yet. The drying on it takes about 30 minutes and it does a good job with plastics too.

How does you machine handle prewashes? Does it do them or skip them and does it drain the water between the prewash and main wash?

 

[henene4]

On the EU only one cycle is a true sensor guided cycle, the "Auto" cycle.

The max the machine does is 1 prewash from what I can gather.
Every prewash so far has been cold except for on the intensive cycle where it was hand warm maybe.
On the Auto cycle so far it either does a full drain sequence (which on this machine is drain with pump running, then just drain, then a 30sec pause for the water to drip from dishes, then drain again) or just continues, so no partial drains so far.

Cycles with a fixed prewash are Intensive, Delicate and Normal.
Auto is sensor guided, so maybe maybe not.
Eco, QuickPowerWash (QuickIntenseWash for you over there) and Silent don't prewash at all, though Eco spends like 30min before dispensing detergent.

 

[jerrod6]

Thanks, Henrik

Over here the Normal program is our Eco and the main wash temperature varies between 117F and 140F. The final rinse is 140F. The Sensor program is your Auto and varies the number of prewashes, main wash length, and the interim rinses. The wash temperature is between 113F and 140F, the Final rinse is 140F-160F.

So far the DW has changed the prewash water for the pots and pans/heavy soil program, but not for the Sensor or Normal program. It has used 3.2 gallons for the sensor program and 3.8 for the pots and pans program. It seems to spray for between 3 and 12 minutes without detergent and calls that the prewash, then it moves to the wash without changing the water. It has done 3 rinses though.

I think it has the same drying system as yours. Most of the time it opens the door with 9 minutes left, but last Friday it opened the door with 15 minutes left. The drying period seems to be 30 minutes, but even plastics are dry when it's' finish.

This machine is a series older than yours so I guess it is going to act differently than yours. What does the NTC look like and is that the thing that is supposed to measure the outside temperature for the drying system? Seems like that would be outside the machine. My other Miele had a thick short stainless steel rod in the sump but I don't see that in this one. What does the optical sensor look like, is it visible in the sump? I might have other questions for you later. Thanks a lot.

 

[henene4]

They said for their G5000 or G6000 series (can't remember which) in the service manual that they used the main wash thermistor in the sump to sense room temp at the beginning of the cycle.
Reasoning was that the sump was reasonably close to room temperature, that the room temp wouldn't fluctuate much over the 2h or so window the DW was running (at least not towards the worse/hotter side) and that you didn't need another sensor to measure that way cutting cost, complexity and failure rate.

Miele actually hold/held a patent for a sensor based rinsing system on their washers that did only use the main NTC.
Not sure if that ever got implemented, but Miele loved using one thing for multiple purposes.

Picture attached you can see the ootical sensor.
I appear to be mistaken as there is no longer an exposed NTC in the sump.
The ootical sensor is in the 7 o'clock position in this picture, which is just left of the 6 o'clock postion viewed from the front of the machine.

 

[logixx]

Not sure if that ever got implemented

 

[schulthess]

Pretty sure...

... that this got implemented. Washing towels (very absorbing) vs. same amount in kg of sheets (less absorbing), as far as I could observe, Miele (W5000 or 3000) would use a different amount of water. However, not that impressed with rinsing performance on Mieles before W1 line on cotton cycle. Always felt that V-Zug Unimatic and above Adora SL, as well as BSH, had a better rinsing performance thanks to the turbidity sensors or just 3 rinses and one more extraction.
@henene, after experimenting with activating and inactivating extra clean option on my Miele dishwasher, I had finally to admit to myself, that I better leave it activated for best cleaning performance. Have you activated the option at yours? What detergent do you guys from Germany use to get best results on stainless steel pots and pans, somehow they do not get as clean with AutoDos-Powder or maybe it’s because I bought a new set of pots. Would need always to pretreat them in order to get rid of limescale. .
Just testing a V-Zug Adora SL with SteamFinish, that I‘m going to resell, what an amazing function this SteamFinish. Cycle times are max. 1h25min on Auto, 45min on DailyIntense (with pre rinse), 1h30min on Intense and 19min on Sprint.

 

[logixx]

Schulthess

How does Steam Finish work? I suppose there's no steam generator?

 

[schulthess]

SteamFinish

Depending on the cycle selected it adds 18 to 25 minutes.
It will normally dispense the rinse aid in the final rinse (maybe a bit less, as well there is automatic detection of rinse aid needed, so you do not ned to set any level of rinse aid, but there is also option to adjust). When the final rinse is done, it will heat up the water from the last rinse, thereby the heat element will be activated in intervals together with the circulation pump at a very slow speed just to mix the water through the lower spray arm, while not spraying the dishes. Water gets very hot but certainly not boiling hot, however this is enough to steam up the cabinet and actually heat the dishes inside. The result is very dry dishes (even in the first generation of Adoras with steam function but without automatic door opening) and shorter drying cycle. Not sure if there are really less residues of detergent etc. as they state in their advertisement, since still rinse aid is being used. Also they say somewhere, that rinse aid would not be needed, however with empty salt container you cannot activate steam finish, just to protect from limescale or not to heat up water that has mineral leftovers / „Kalk“ as we would say.

 

[logixx]

Danke

 

[jerrod6]

Thanks for the picture of the sump Henrik. I misspoke when I said my model will only do 1 prewash. I had the short option enabled and thus 1 prewash. It will do up to 2 prewashes on Automatic and always do 2 prewashes on Pots and Pans(intensive). When the quick option is enabled you get 1 prewash.

Our Eco program that is named Normal is also sensor controlled so it might or might not skip the prewash and go directly into the wash.

Since your optical sensor is in the sump does the machine stop to sense the soil in the water or does it keep on going and sense while it is spraying?

 

[henene4]

It does pause

Might be for sensing - quite possibly so - but maybe twice for a few seconds in the prewash and once in the post wash rinse.

 

[jerrod6]

Thanks, Henrik. I was wondering because mine doesn't seem to do any pauses, so I haven't figured out how it is sensing the soil unless it is by looking at the water as it runs by in the sump. I know it is sensing though because it does vary the number of after rinses and the length of prewashes and also the first interim rinse. Some times the first rinse is 9 minutes other times it is 17, other times it is 12 and other times it adds a second one. Mine is of the older 6xxx series design so I was wondering how the 7xxx series works.