Miele straying away from god

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henene4

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It was only a matter of time

Miele is trying to hit certain price points in the market. Also, I heard they are building a laundry plant in Poland.

GlaronK has been produced now for many years and was used in the W48XX series for the US market. I haven't read anything negative about this type of outer drum.
 
What shocked me with Miele was when we bought mum a base model classic machine and discovered that the cottons wash pushed out to over three hours and there is no everyday cycle that can do a 60deg wash in 60-90 minutes. I’d never seen Miele despec usability before to encourage buying a more expensive model. Features, yes. Ie spin speed, delay start, prewash, speciality cycles, but never something that impacts the usefulness of the machine.

Mum still has it, but uses quick 30 or Jeans 40 as they’re the only cycles that don’t take a lifetime. I have to keep reminding her to do maintenance washes instead.

Our W1 is better, but I still struggle with some of its logic, being where a short cottons wash at 60deg takes 2 hours with extra rinse enabled, but is only 1.5 hours at 40deg. At least you don’t get the 3 hour plus cycles unless you set out to.
 
I have W1926, which is 15 years old, and still running great. I replaced inlet triple valve once, and that's about it. Yes, it takes close to 2 hours to do cottons cycle, and it's pretty small capacity (6 kg), but it works great. No other machine cleans better and is more durable than Miele.
 
Oh No plastic Outer Tub

Thats the great thing About SQs Washers and dryers, because they are exactly the same as their commercial models they are no corners being cut.

 

After 15 years of selling and serviceing SQs I have not seen one single cost cut done except eliminating the silly guard that sat on top of the dryers lint filter.

 

Last year SQ started making their dryer inner door panels out of steel instead of plastic and last month SQ changed the main drive pulley on TL washer back to Aluminum on the TC and commercial models.

 

John L.
 
Is there any thing special about GlaronK?

Is it a durable plastic compareable to steel Or iron ?

What price point are you reaching if you service the premium segment ?
 
Price point

Well, about 20 years ago, Miele still had competitors price wise. A TOL Bosch or Siemens was about the price of a BOL to MOL Miele.

By now, even upper line BSH appliances come in cheaper then Mieles cheapest appliances in each catergory while what makes them more expensive at that price point mostly dosen't matter to those customers.

And most people just longer spend 800€ or more on a washer.

They were abled to drop the MSRP by 110€ by just slicing out Stainless Steel for the tub and iron for the counterweights.

That puts these machines when discounted like the other machines at a far more competitive price and into a far more widely avaible market segment.

One of the first retailers to list that machine online over here has it for 699€ while I would dare to say that 649€ will be the average asking price with sales going down to 599€.

And honestly, except when counterweights are loose, I never heared of issues with plastic tubs either.
And loosing just 5kg means that is one hefty tub still.

I would dare to say that bearings will be as good as on the other machines and just as replaceable.
 
Carbon fiber reinforced polymer

GlaronK is what Miele calls theirs, is everywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber_reinforced_polymer

"Carbon fiber is an advanced material ten times stronger than steel at only a quarter of its weight. CFRP, a composite material made of carbon fiber and plastic, has the added advantage of being highly resistant to deformation and to both acid and alkaline corrosion."

https://www.teijin.com/rd/technology/cfrp/

Last bit is of particular interest to washing machine and dishwasher manufactures given nature of chemicals tubs/suds containers are exposed to on routine basis.

As to which is best where; porcelain on steel, CFRP or stainless, that is up for debate.

https://www.hunker.com/13410123/is-a-stainless-steel-drum-best-for-a-washing-machine

Will say in past washing machines and dishwashers were "durable goods" with supposed lifespans of ten years or greater. Appliances of old often came with "lifetime warranty" on tubs/suds containers, which wasn't all it may have seemed at first glance. Chances were other parts of washer or dishwasher long would have worn out, broken or whatever long before tub. Most consumers at that point just purchased a new machine instead of investing in major repair.

People today are far more mobile than in past; often leaving appliances at old home. At that point something that lasts "20 years" or whatever becomes moot.

My older Miele washer is built like a tank with two SS suds containers, but likely long will be out of service due to motor, pump and other parts knackered that cannot be replaced. At that point unless or until parts in question can be located and installed, what is the good of a lifetime tub?
 
In a W1 I tend to use Cottons 40ºC or 60º + SHORT option. It's actually a very decent wash without ridiculously long times.

It's about 0:58 to 1:20 depending on options at 40C
and a bit over 2h at 75ºC or 90ºC
 
GlaronK is NOT carbon fiber. It is fiberglass reinforced plastic. Miele touted it on the W48xx series as an insulator. Meaning that there was less re-heating of wash solution and quicker initial heating due to the plastic not acting as a heat sink like a stainless outer drum normally would.

I personally didn't care for it too much. It tended to attract and grow mold easier than a stainless outer tub. It's main benefit was reduced cost.

Aluminum spiders tend to fall apart over time due to exposure to wash solutions that attack the spider. Yes aluminum is cheaper, but there are downsides as well.
 
At the end of the day though, Miele also have to make money to survive. It looks like they're going to try to extend into the upper mid price bracket. If they do that successfully, they'll do well. If they make cut down machines that have far poorer features than BSH, Electrolux, Samsung and LG etc at a similar price point, they'll lose money and if they produce anything that's not ultra high quality they could destroy their brand.

The one thing I would say is Miele isn't under any pressure from shareholders as it's still a privately owned company that isn't traded on the markets, but if has to remain competitive to survive.

Hopefully, they make good decisions, as they are one of the last ultra high quality brands still standing.

The W1 & T1 development, however, shows they are still very much in the top of the line.

From what I've read of their strategy, it'll be a lot about connected devices, energy management and selling directly. They've a fairly big plan to expand their online presence.
 
I agree on not destroying their brand. It won’t take too many complaints from a low quality entry to the market to destroy their reputation. It would be similar to bmw introducing a mode to compete with Kia. The cost of a new bmw usually comes with very high expectations for purchasers. Diluting that expectation can destroy the desire for the brands most profitable products by tainting the brands reputation.

A race to the bottom is not one you want to see from a brand that has consistently ranked at the top of the market for reliability and customer happiness.

Miele has had a lot of price jumps the last few years. Hundreds of dollars and much more than normal inflation. This is somewhat frustrating as it makes the brand harder to justify especially when their closest competitors are now 250 to 500 dollars cheaper. It may also be comparing a bsh top of the line to a Miele entry level and still having a Miele price premium.

Miele needs to be careful.
 
In Europe Whirlpool is probably the ultimate example of how to wreck a brand.
They entered the European market in the 1980s through a joint venture with Philips which was cobranded Philips-Whirlpool. Philips had always had a very high quality image in the European appliances market and made some very nice products. The 1980s Philips microwaves, for example, were extremely innovative with a drop down door and all the electronics in the top, much like a modern built-in and Philips washers, dryers and fridges had an excellent reputation.

Philips wanted to get out of the major appliances sector entirely and sold their whitewoods division to Whirlpool. Initially they had all sorts of 6th Sense branding and retained that high end image, but within a few years they were producing anything and everything from ultra cheap re-badged washer dryers to reasonably upper-mid range stuff. The result was a brand that tends to be like a lucky dip. Some of their appliances are good, some aren't.

I can't see Miele doing anything like that, but they would definitely want to be careful that they don't turn into Mercedes trying to chase Hyundai sales. They're entirely different market segments.
 
Much of Miele's North American pricing comes from fact everything is imported, as such subject to exchange rates and shipping costs.

Unlike Bosch, Miele refuses to build a plant in USA much less North America so there you are...

Parts, accessories and supplies found rather cheaply in EU, are all quite dear in North America, this included the vastly inflated rates once charged for Henkel products (Persil, Somat, etc...) and even Miele's own label products.

Then you simply have fact Miele is a small player in rather large North American market. They don't move anywhere near number of products as Whirlpool or Electrolux (either under their brand names or subsidiaries). Without that economy of scale what is sold cost more than it otherwise would.

Keep in mind while yes Miele laundry appliances are rather good, we in USA don't have access to a wide array of things from other brands that are equally or offer better value than Miele.

Miele's gamble with 4XXX series washers and matching dryers was their attempt at breaking into a larger share of North American laundry appliance market, something that is vastly different than their home manor (EU).

While it has taken time for Americans to warm to front loaders, one thing is clear; they didn't like "compact" units in large numbers. For all its faults Maytag's Neptune showed the way. Americans would use front loaders if doing so didn't dramatically alter time honored laundry habits. That is doing large amounts of laundry at a go; this rather than small amounts on near daily basis.

Most American uber sized front loaders have rated capacity of 18 lbs. This is highest most brands will go because often local zoning restricts residential washers to 20 lbs or less (New York City is one).

Miele's Little Giant washers only rate at 15 lbs, and are very expensive for what you get. That and have unique electrical power requirements often not found in American homes. So Miele tried another track, came up with 4XXX series, and we know how that ended.

Miele went back to drawing board and came up with W 1 series (rated capacity of 17.6 lbs). More importantly various EU markets now are more receptive to "large" capacity washers. So Miele isn't stuck with making machines just for North America (as with 4XXX series).

Where Miele fails, and Whirlpool, Electrolux etc... eat their lunch is that for money paid for their appliances Miele USA still has weak after sales/service

Someone who has paid nearly three thousand for a washing machine doesn't want to hear they will have to wait two weeks (or more) just for a diagnose call out. Then maybe another week (or more, much more) before repair can be done. Worse that is if things can be fixed at all second call around.
 
Effectively Miele's a niche high end brand in the US. It's a mainstream high end brand in Europe.
It's a bit like the niche market for Maytag top loaders and gas dryers that existed here until Whirlpool took over. They were obscure, hard to get parts for and had horrendous follow up service if you'd any kind of problem as they were such niche players.

If Miele wanted to really kick off in the North American market, they would need to either just focus on a handful of states and forget about going fully nationwide, or they'd need to do some serious investment in their service network to bring it up to the level they have in most European countries.

The sense I get is they tried to follow Bosch and just got way outside their comfort zone and ended up just not paying that much attention to the North American market again for a while.

A report I was reading about them seems to indicate that they'll be reorganising how their North American operations operate and they will in future be reporting directly to the Miele board in Germany. So, that might indicate that they're going to be a more serious player in the US in the future, even if it's at a niche high end, it's quite possible that they might become more focused.

It seems they do have fairly good traction on their dishwashers and vacuum cleaners and some other products in the North American market. Their washers and dryers are top notch, but yeah - they're not localised for North America beyond a few minor superficial tweaks and changes to the electrical systems.

Also, yeah in Europe things have changed over the past couple of decades at this stage, with more and more very large capacity machines in standard cabinets. They're definitely on that trend with the W1. Miele's classic machines were really starting to look rather small capacity compared to the likes of what being produced by other mid/high end brands like Bosch, Siemens, AEG etc and even most of the mid market brands were all carrying machines with very large drum capacity (albeit in a standard width cabinet).

The issue with cabinet size in Europe tends to be the expectation of modularity and slot in cabinet spaces and so on. Even where people have plenty of space for larger machines, they have tended not to be all that successful - Bosch sold Maxx washers in Europe and LG did their Tromm machines in this market for a while, but I think a lot people just found having to rearrange spaces specifically to fit them was just annoying and standard cabinet machines with very large capacities seemed to kill the market for them.
 
You can buy Miele vacuum cleaners mostly everywhere in USA. Our local "hardware" store even sells them, though maybe not entire line.

As for vacuum spares, again you can get them all over, not just Miele or authorized dealer. Ebay and CL are full of adverts for Miele vac bags, parts, etc..

Quite honestly don't see what all fuss is about with Miele vacuum cleaners. They don't seem to be any more special than other offerings that are much cheaper. Repair track record isn't overly brilliant either for many models. Again nothing going by often premium price attached to the things.

Yes, can see for mod cons in EU things having to fit standard cabinet/cut out sizes. Same here for things like dishwashers, ranges, etc...

Overall it is same as with many other consumer goods; no serious player on world market can afford to ignore USA. But Miele can only go so far without opening a plant in North America, and seriously investing in after sales support and service.

Being a niche brand is all very well for impressing the neighbors, and or if one's home is going to be photographed and shown in glossy magazine pages. But majority of housewives/households just want appliances that will get the job done reliably year after year, and not require a mortgage to buy.
 
Miele Appliances In The US

Their vacuums sell fairly well, the their 2nd best selling appliance are their DWs.

 

Miele will never be a serious player in laundry appliances with only compact washers and dryers, you could not give away their dryers to most customers.

 

Compact washers and dryers are less than 10% of the overall laundry sales in the US and Miele is getting 5% of compact sales if they are lucky.

 

Their dryers are slow, unreliable do not come in gas or even vented versions any longer.

 

Their Cook-Tops and wall ovens are nice but there are lots of good competitors, and again built-in cooking appliances are less than 20% of total cooking appliance sales in the US.

 

Miele built-in refrigerators are poorly designed problem prone and in current form they can't even capture 2% of the US built-in ref market, [ they are built in New Jersey ]

 

Appliance service is important, but is not the main thing that is holding Miele sales back in the US, price and a poor reputation for reliability are the main complaints we hear from our customers. One of the most common complaints I hear from our customers about their washers & Dryers is, why on earth did someone buy these, I have actually talked many Miele owners into keeping the Ws&Ds at least till they break down.

 

John L.

 

 
 
How peculiar... Miele in Europe is rewarded as one of the most reliable brands if not the most reliable. Theirs appliances are more expensive but last a long time and perform very well. According to what is said here i must think they choose the worst appliances they produce and ship them in your country. I honestly wonder why a normal american family habits have to be so different from european one. We manage to do laundry in normal washing machines without needing cumbersome units. Despite that i am able to wash my king size, feather stuffed bed cover in my normal 8kg Miele.We dry our clothes without having power eating vented units . Almost all washing machines and dishwashers here are equipped with water proof systems to avoid big damages to furniture and floors should water leaks occur. I saw the video of a typical diswasher installation in your country and found it shocking. Our appliances come with a plug and needed pipes , you don’t have to dismantle the appliance and connect wires and pipes to the machine. Just insert the plug into the wall socket, connect the drain and the “damned box” to the water tap and you are ready to go. Miele refrigerators are made by Liebherr , another brand famous for making the best refrigerators of the market.
 
My observation having lived in both places is that it comes down to the history of top loader agitator washing machines. There's a perception that the drum needs to be absolutely enormous to do a reasonable load, because the top loaders needed to suspend the laundry in water to wash it properly. Also because the traditional US loaders are physically bigger, even if they didn't have that big a capacity, the spaces designed for washing machines and dryers are typically bigger than in Europe. They've standardised on a bigger cabinet.

European cabinet sizes became standard and completely modular in the 1970s and settled on dimebtions a width and height that's similar to a US dishwasher.

That being said European machines have become significantly higher capacity over the last couple of decades too, mostly by adding depth to the cabinet and sometimes tilting the drum.

Big capacity machines also aren't less environmentally friendly, especially if it means they're being used for fewer cycles with more laundry it cycle.

You're seeing changes in both regions though. Americans buying front loaders and the growing demand for MUCH larger US-style side by side fridges in Europe.

These designs go international and the only thing you could conclude is that whatever about the dimensions of the cabinet, is that front loader technologies that have largely evolved in Europe have gone global. Even in Asia, front loader machines are challenging the pulsator type designs that had dominated and that's largely due to water efficiency demands.

In general front loaders are more technically complex, particularly around systems to balance the loads in the spin cycles but also sealing systems for doors and so on. However the technologies available have made a lot more interesting designs possible. What's made bigger drums practical is electronic sensors and load balancing and that was definitely initially driven by LG and Samsung with everyone else following.

Miele has always had money no object type design in terms of materials and control systems. It'll be interesting to see if they can make a machine within a price envelope and still keep the quality.

As for their vacuums, they've always been very powerful and reliable but, they're also fairly simple. I bought one of their bagless models and mistakenly ordered the lower wattage eco line and I've found it very disappointing, to the point that my 1990s pair of Miele S series are vastly superior on suction and are still in use while it's been stuck in a cupboard in a shed. At least the tubes and accessories are 100% compatible between all 3 machines.

The bagless machine seemed like a poor design to me. The HEPA filter can't be changed, why? Miele has had modular filters for decades and they're extremely practically designed. The cyclone system tends to clog if you pick up anything large e.g a tissue or something like that and you end up having to open the assembly to pull it out.

So basically, despite the reverence for the brand they don't get everything right.

Also their current range of vacuums here has dropped in price (other than the Blizzard bagless) and really doesn't look like the quality I'd expect from Miele. To the point that I would probably pick a different brand if I'm buying again.

Other historically quality vacuum brands like Nilfisk have gone to garbage too. Back in the day, you'd find Nilfisk 70s, 80s and 90s in a lot of homes and offices here in Ireland and they were absolute workhorses that lasted for decades and oozed quality but now they're just blandly low quality vacuums that are nothing special. I bought a compact Nilfisk for a relative of mine and frankly I should have bought something else. It's not very good at all - bad quality and it's fairly obvious they're not in the same business they were 20 years ago.
 
From a US market point of view though, plenty of European players don't step outside of Europe. I mean the EU is an $18.8 trillion economy that's roughly 18% of the world's economy and from the likes of Miele's point of view it's their domestic market. Most of Europe's economy is domestic and is trade with itself - much as most of the US economy is like that. They're both enormous, highly developed mixed consumer economies.

You can go a long time in the US without seeing a Renault or a Citroen car, yet those are huge brands in the EU and elsewhere and are highly successful companies. You can go a long time in Europe without ever seeing a GM car. In fact, GM sold off their European brand Opel (Vauxhall badged in the UK).

The same applies to plenty of US and Asian companies and if you throw in the current turbulence with Trump's chaotic approach to trade and tarrifs, it's even less attractive to invest there when you could focus domestically in Europe and into Asian markets where the EU has a growing number of comprehensive trade deals and you've a booming consumer economy with big spenders at the upper end who are well within Miele's niche.

Miele isn't a publicly quoted company. It's part of the privately owned, family owned business that is basically part of the traditional German 'Mittelstand' (the small and medium businesses that tend to be family owned or owned by groups of private investors, often including employees) and is EXTREMELY unlikely to ever be sold off or to be subject to any kind of merger or acquisition. It can play very long games and doesn't have to impress with quarterly results.

Over stretching into a market it can't properly serve would be a big problem and I think that's kind of what they did with the US specific models. It's a physically huge market and they've a small share. So, getting things like service agent networks rolled out in every state isn't easy as they're going to be rather expensive to keep on board with such a niche brand in laundry etc.

The reality is they can serve most Asia with basically the exact same machines as they sell domestically in Europe. The only localisation language but the US market has both electrical differences a expectations of larger machines etc. So there's a lot more localisation involved.

I could see Miele still just keeping a toe in the North American market and focusing on where they're strongest. You build on your strengths, not chase after areas where you're structurally weak - like trying to take a chunk of a highly price competitive market where you're a very niche upper end player.

The biggest challenge Miele is probably facing right now is from Samsung and LG in Europe. They've pushed into that €1000+ washer and dryers space which is the area Miele absolutely owned for decades. That's where their big challenge is in laundry anyway.

My view of their brand is they should be pushing the ecological aspect of their extremely long lived appliances. I see little or no focus on the fact that their machines tend to outlast anything else and are usually highly repairable.

If Miele went after the high spending power, ecologically focused consumers more directly, I think they may actually do a lot better than just trying to chase middle or the road or snob brand values. They've an unusually good product and they really could leverage it more.
 
Miele probably has decided to go down the plastic tub route (polypropylene reinforced with glass beads) due to shipping/transit tariffs. Isn't it the case that quality heavy machines are penalised?

And I suppose too, that forming the plastic tubs will be easier and cheaper than buying expensive steel.

I dare say that Miele's plastic tubs will be more substantial than some of the others. I had a Chinese made Panasonic, and the outer tub was pretty much transparent. I remember reading an engineer's comment somewhere, where they bemoaned UK Hotpoint's outer tub being so thin that it was virtually see-through. This was around the early 2000's.
 
As has been said, Miele has had plastic tubs so far on their TLs for like 15 years or more.

They are not new.

And they have been proven to be just fine. No mold, no structural issues, no bearing issues.

And while I think this machine will sell well I do think that this is more like a model you can easily upsell from.

And further I doubt that they would dare to launch anything sub par. They are still Miele.

They have a second model in that new line that does still have 1600rpm with the larger full metal construction that is like 200€ bucks more expensive yet has the TwinDos feature.
 
Plastic outer tubs In FL Washers

Are actually much heavier [ weight wise ] than SS, probably the worst thing about plastic is it does not get recycled when the machine is crushed for recycling.

 

One of the other bad things about plastic is it has a lot of deep pockets and ribs on the back of the tubs for strength and these can get filled with minerals and other gunk leading to odors and spider failures.

 

I guess that SQ FL washers will soon be the only 50 year durability washers available  for the masses in the US soon.

 

John L.
 
"Are actually much heavier [ weight wise ] than SS..."

Are they? The original posting says it is 5 kg lighter.
 
Well, there are pluses and minuses to using plastic versus stainless steel. The machines would be a little lighter, but also the resources involved in making large stainless steel components are huge in terms of energy input, mining and so on. If the plastic is recoverable or even safely incinerated in waste-to-energy it's actually potentially lower impact.

In a typical Miele washer life span, you're also talking 1 plastic drum in maybe 10 to 20 years. All the synthetic fibres that a machine washes and some of the components in the detergents would probably be of a lot more impact.

I mean in the life time of the machine, you'll have definitely used FAR more plastic in even the packaging for your washing liquids and softeners than would be contained in the entire washing machine's components.

Plastic drums, designed well don't have internal pockets and ribs, they put them all on the outside.

I'd assume you'd also have some degree of better heat retention for long washes, so might cut down on element heating time during the cycle.

The use of very heavy cast iron counter weights however is one of Miele's trade mark difference and I'd hope that certainly wouldn't' be replaced with blocks of concrete.
 
Plastic Outer Tubs In FL washers

SS is simply much stronger for a given weight than plastic.

Hi James, you are correct that plastic outer tubs can be designed with the ribs on the outside or inside, I found these examples in our shop of building them both ways, I guess it would be interesting to see how Miele is doing it on this new model.

While it puts overall plastic use context comparing plastic bottles used in the life of a washer to the plastic used to build the outer tub, it simply does not justify using a plastic tub. Metals used in appliances are fully recycled back into new very high quality products.

Hi Louis, I don't think that you can compare the overall weight of two different model machines and conclude that the difference is do to a plastic outer tub, there are 100 other things that could have been made lighter in a washer, just a better computer balance control and better shocks would allow taking that much weight away from the counterbalance weights.

John L.[this post was last edited: 1/12/2020-21:22]

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Sorry for such a late revival

So, due to some issues in my current flat share I am moving soon (probably before the end of February).

Already bought a DW (got an insane deal on a great machine due to a kind-of but not really pricing error)

But I have to buy a kitchen, so I pre-ordered a countertop (the cabinets will be delivered).

Doing that I had an hour to waste before heading to a doctors appointment so I grabbed a bite to eat and headed to the 2nd big electronics chain here in town (expert Bening).

Walked through the DW isle.

Checked out some machines I considered before.
Lucky I didn't go with the freestanding Samsung I was considering (spaceing there was horrific, upper rack only had 2 positions and the lower one was to low for my plates, the upper one far to high).
The Bauknecht might have been an ok option, but reliability is questionable.
The one I got is perfectly fine for the price I paid for.

Now I walked through the washer isle and looked at some Mieles.

And found something I wasn't aware off.

Miele has a second drum with Novotronic style drum lifters.
Same triangle shap, ribs and holes.

It is smaller (probably 55l or there abouts).
Used on machines with 7 and 8 kg.
And even on machines with the pre ironing option.

Didn't suspect that.

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Henrik,

The 7 and 8kg models have had these drums since the W1 Classics were launched in 2017. Drum volume is 59.5l.

Jon
 

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