Minneapolis house with no furnace
- Thread starter lordkenmore
- Start date
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,685
Good project!
But I can't believe this two things:
they had to ship triple-panel windows from Germany? I can't believe they aren't available in the USA!
also the heat-exchanging ventilator? I really can't believe things like that aren't avaliable over there!
But I can't believe this two things:
they had to ship triple-panel windows from Germany? I can't believe they aren't available in the USA!
also the heat-exchanging ventilator? I really can't believe things like that aren't avaliable over there!
Ugh, no thank you. The idea of having a house so extremely air tight is gross, I'd much prefer a furnace and a breeze blowing through the house lol.
norgeway
Well-known member
A MEN
Robert!!! I dont want a sweatbox in which everything molds and rots!!
Robert!!! I dont want a sweatbox in which everything molds and rots!!
lordkenmore
Well-known member
Supposedly fresh air would be taken care of by a unit that brings in fresh air, exhausts house air, and eliminates energy loss by using a heat exchanger. How well this works in practice, though, is another question. But it does seem like a good idea--every place I've ever lived is closed up in winter--everything stays shut as much as possible (windows, doors, etc). This has, unfortunately, included places that had air quality issues. Given the cost of heating, I have a hard time flinging open a window for fresh air. (Except, of course, in the case of an emergency, like a huge plume of smoke from a failed cooking experiment.)
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,685
Oh guys, you really should try one of those houses! 
Indoor air quality is actually better than "standard" houses as the air handler unit is sized according to the air volume and it gives just about the right quantity of recirculation without wasting any heat.
How this was implemented in that house of the article I don't know but in principle (and also in practice over here) it works really good!
Plus triple glazed windows are 100% noise proof!
Indoor air quality is actually better than "standard" houses as the air handler unit is sized according to the air volume and it gives just about the right quantity of recirculation without wasting any heat.How this was implemented in that house of the article I don't know but in principle (and also in practice over here) it works really good!
Plus triple glazed windows are 100% noise proof!
launderess
Well-known member
Saw on the news awhile ago about some man building his *green* home that was supposed to be sealed as above. There were delays and problems galore especially for materials such as the aforementioned triple glazed glass windows (imported as well),which drove up the costs.
As the windows,doors and the rest of the home went up someone would stand outside with some sort of gadget to sense/measure heat loss. If it was happening the offending area (say around a window) was packed with more sealant/insulation...
Personally find the idea of living in a *sealed* home rather off putting. One needs fresh air and ideally the house should have several changes per hour. Sure this can be done with heat exchangers and so forth, but that involves using forced air heat (which one does not always like),and more things that break down or go wrong.
Of course living in such a home means one has to pay particular attention to indoor air pollution. Materials inside one's home from the paint on the walls, cleaning products, textiles, floor finishes, and so forth all give off gases which should be removed often.
As the windows,doors and the rest of the home went up someone would stand outside with some sort of gadget to sense/measure heat loss. If it was happening the offending area (say around a window) was packed with more sealant/insulation...
Personally find the idea of living in a *sealed* home rather off putting. One needs fresh air and ideally the house should have several changes per hour. Sure this can be done with heat exchangers and so forth, but that involves using forced air heat (which one does not always like),and more things that break down or go wrong.
Of course living in such a home means one has to pay particular attention to indoor air pollution. Materials inside one's home from the paint on the walls, cleaning products, textiles, floor finishes, and so forth all give off gases which should be removed often.
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,685
You still don't understand: the heat exchanger/heat recoverer unit never switches off so the air never goes stale! And of course windows can be easily opened, they're not sealed shut. One doesn't do that as ideally the air is fresh all the time (unless grilling/frying indoors but extractor hoods take care of that!) and no, those houses there don't need forced air heating, in fact many have underfloor radiant heating or none at all as it's not needed and only have supplemental heaters/coolers.
Anyway you're telling me that triple panel windows aren't sold in the USA and must be imported?!?
Anyway you're telling me that triple panel windows aren't sold in the USA and must be imported?!?
Nope, call me old fashioned. We even keep the window slightly open at night in the bedroom no matter how cold it gets. Also we keep the heat at 71-72. I have serious doubts that a sealed tight house could ever warm above 70 when its -10F outside.
norgeway
Well-known member
YES>>>
And you have good old radiator heat! NOTHING BETTER!!!
And you have good old radiator heat! NOTHING BETTER!!!
lordkenmore
Well-known member
"Anyway you're telling me that triple panel windows aren't sold in the USA and must be imported?!?"
I have no idea since the last time I went window shopping was "never." But I wouldn't be surprised if these windows aren't an import item. I have never been outside of the US--not even to Canada--but my impression from what others say is that our technology is often well behind the times elsewhere.
In a way, I hope that we aren't making these windows, unless it can done right. I wonder if we have the current technology and ability to do a good triple pane window. I have my doubts--I have heard so many horror stories about modern windows that cost a fortune and barely last the warranty period.
I have no idea since the last time I went window shopping was "never." But I wouldn't be surprised if these windows aren't an import item. I have never been outside of the US--not even to Canada--but my impression from what others say is that our technology is often well behind the times elsewhere.
In a way, I hope that we aren't making these windows, unless it can done right. I wonder if we have the current technology and ability to do a good triple pane window. I have my doubts--I have heard so many horror stories about modern windows that cost a fortune and barely last the warranty period.
I read this and other linked articles with great interest. I would likely have to be convinced by a tour - or a stay-over in such a house before I would give up my central heating. I use the 3M window film for most of the windows in the house except the kitchen window. Our home is hardly what you'd call airtight, but like others, I do want the change of air either from a window or exchanger. I can't stand that closed-in feeling, even in the car I'll crack a window for fresh air.
Fascinating house though, the curb appeal is much improved from when they bought it but doubt that will bring resale value comparable to what they've spent. Hopefully they'll do a follow-up to this in the spring to see how things went this winter.
Fascinating house though, the curb appeal is much improved from when they bought it but doubt that will bring resale value comparable to what they've spent. Hopefully they'll do a follow-up to this in the spring to see how things went this winter.
Gabriele, Triple pane windows are available in the US, but they're quite unusual and also much more expensive than a good argon filled double pane unit. The reason you don't see them is that the typical American home, especially today's "McMansions", have A LOT of windows and so that significant cost savings is usually put towards better wall and ceiling insulation or a higher efficiency furnace (or geothermal) where you get a bigger bang for the buck.
One of the trickier aspects of these very tight, and very well insulated homes like the article mentions, is figuring where the transition point is going to be for condensation when the interior is nice and cozy but it's below freezing outside. Without air movement in key areas, there's the opportunity for mold and mildew to grow; a traditional builder's approach to constructing something like this would likely be a mess!
One of the trickier aspects of these very tight, and very well insulated homes like the article mentions, is figuring where the transition point is going to be for condensation when the interior is nice and cozy but it's below freezing outside. Without air movement in key areas, there's the opportunity for mold and mildew to grow; a traditional builder's approach to constructing something like this would likely be a mess!
what about cooling-Air conditioning in the spring-summer?No details on this.
Did anyone run the numbers, we are in our 50's and had a good but not perfect renovation. A little draft to me, is part of living in an older home. My point if we are in our 50's is it even worth entertaining such a upheaval of ones home. How long would it take to see a Sizeable return on on your investment? alr
I would like to see the return on the investment figures before doing such a project-it might not pay off.
mysteryclock
Well-known member
It would be very interesting to see the math on the investment in a retrofit vs. return. Perhaps up north where heating days are numerous (and oil furnaces are common) it makes more sense than down here in the south where we're just burning up the AC the majority of the year. I would suspect if you can run the whole house on a few space heaters you could have a similarly small AC unit, assuming you can move all the air around sufficiently.
For new construction, I bet the payback is a lot faster since it would be a comparatively small % additional since you're building from scratch anyway. That certainly would be on my must-do list if I was building.
As for air quality, with a HRV *guaranteeing* a certain number of air changes per hour while saving energy then you can absolutely have better indoor air quality than a typical house, since you can filter the air coming in (vs. leaks/drafts which let who-knows-what in) and at the same get the "bad air" out at a predictable rate. But in a tight house like this it is essential that you exchange the air at a defined pace because, as some have pointed out, otherwise it'll get skunky in a hurry.
For new construction, I bet the payback is a lot faster since it would be a comparatively small % additional since you're building from scratch anyway. That certainly would be on my must-do list if I was building.
As for air quality, with a HRV *guaranteeing* a certain number of air changes per hour while saving energy then you can absolutely have better indoor air quality than a typical house, since you can filter the air coming in (vs. leaks/drafts which let who-knows-what in) and at the same get the "bad air" out at a predictable rate. But in a tight house like this it is essential that you exchange the air at a defined pace because, as some have pointed out, otherwise it'll get skunky in a hurry.
maytagbear
Well-known member
Plus.......
I would want the heat exchange ventilator on a small, automatically switched generator.
However, overall, this sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
I would want the heat exchange ventilator on a small, automatically switched generator.
However, overall, this sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
Give me steam in cast iron
and open windows any day! They got it right in the 1890's 'remove the vitiated air' constantly for good health.
I remember this engineer worked with my father, in the 60's he built the first Buckminster Fuller dome home in Schenectady out of wood. The problem he never solved and so had to abandon the house from was condensate building up at the peak of the dome from breathing and showering and water usage. It rotted the wood up there. Last I saw it , it was an abandoned hulk.
This problem has yet to be solved on the interior walls of the ISS and all long term space flight vehicles so I'm sure it hasn't been solved yet on the ground.
and open windows any day! They got it right in the 1890's 'remove the vitiated air' constantly for good health.
I remember this engineer worked with my father, in the 60's he built the first Buckminster Fuller dome home in Schenectady out of wood. The problem he never solved and so had to abandon the house from was condensate building up at the peak of the dome from breathing and showering and water usage. It rotted the wood up there. Last I saw it , it was an abandoned hulk.
This problem has yet to be solved on the interior walls of the ISS and all long term space flight vehicles so I'm sure it hasn't been solved yet on the ground.
dj-gabriele
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 1,685
sure it hasn't been solved yet on the ground
Maybe dehumidifiers aren't still sold in the USA?!
Another interesting things of those air handlers and heat recoverer units is that many of them include an auxiliary heat pump that takes care of climate regulation and that includes humidity
Maybe dehumidifiers aren't still sold in the USA?!
Another interesting things of those air handlers and heat recoverer units is that many of them include an auxiliary heat pump that takes care of climate regulation and that includes humidity
Overhere in the Netherlands lots of houses have a ventilation system with a heat exchanger. Well insulated houses can be ventilated with such a system very well, humidity is not an option. However maintenance of such a system is very important. You don't want the duct pipes of that system clogged with dust. Filters must be replaced every year. If not breathing problems can occur.
Ofcourse the houses overhere still have windows. Ventilation by opening a window is still possible. Most of these houses have small windows on the north side and large windows on the south. All windows are triple panel ones, even the smallest.
Ofcourse the houses overhere still have windows. Ventilation by opening a window is still possible. Most of these houses have small windows on the north side and large windows on the south. All windows are triple panel ones, even the smallest.
launderess
Well-known member
Ventilation In Home Design
Took off in the United States in reaction to the 1918 Spanish influenza epidemic.
It was believed that homes and other buildings should be *drafty* to encourage fresh air indoors even in winter when windows were normally kept closed or rarely opened.
Much of this reaction was due to lingering miasma theories that *bad air* caused diseased such as the flu, thus one's home should be filled with fresh air as often as possible, heating bills be damned. *LOL*
For this reason older homes/buildings were fitted with heating systems and or boilers far in excess of requirements. They had to keep up with the loss of heated air due to the drafts. It is also why when such places are fitted with better insulation including new windows thus sealing them up and cutting down on all that draft, replacement heating systems especially boilers are sized much smaller.
Many of the "old country" or "old school" housewives one knew growing up and or today still insist on throwing open every single window in the house in winter once the household has departed for school/work. Those windows stay open for hours whilst the housework is started and supposedly is to "air" the house. One wonders what His Nibbs says about the heating bills... *LOL*
Took off in the United States in reaction to the 1918 Spanish influenza epidemic.
It was believed that homes and other buildings should be *drafty* to encourage fresh air indoors even in winter when windows were normally kept closed or rarely opened.
Much of this reaction was due to lingering miasma theories that *bad air* caused diseased such as the flu, thus one's home should be filled with fresh air as often as possible, heating bills be damned. *LOL*
For this reason older homes/buildings were fitted with heating systems and or boilers far in excess of requirements. They had to keep up with the loss of heated air due to the drafts. It is also why when such places are fitted with better insulation including new windows thus sealing them up and cutting down on all that draft, replacement heating systems especially boilers are sized much smaller.
Many of the "old country" or "old school" housewives one knew growing up and or today still insist on throwing open every single window in the house in winter once the household has departed for school/work. Those windows stay open for hours whilst the housework is started and supposedly is to "air" the house. One wonders what His Nibbs says about the heating bills... *LOL*
Similar threads
