Modern KA mixers

[rp2813]

Hey Mike, I like that maroon/brown colored band on your mixer.  What model and wattage is it?

 

Here's a comparison shot of my basic Hobart K45.  No Hobart ID on the band or any precautionary verbiage, just a straight-forward mixer.  The Hobart information is in the bowl base on the pedestal.

 

 

 

[rp2813]

The front.  I've replaced the bowl with a later rolled rim K45 type I got at a thrift store.  The sharp edge of the original bowl had made some deep scratches into the upper portion of the pedestal, which I treated with white appliance touch-up.

 

[sudsmaster]

Another Costco Discount

Costco just issued its latest coupon book, taking effect April 14, and in it there's a $50 off coupon for their 5.5 Qt. KA Professiona/HD 575 watt mixer. The version sold on-line also includes a free ice cream maker attachment (which I assume includes an outer bowl to hold ice) available with a mail-in coupon.

Current online price is $300, which I assume is the same price in the stores, so that would bring the cost of this mixer down to $250, which is probably a quite good deal. Not to mention the xtra capacity of the 5.5 qt bowl (which looks wider than the 5 qt bowl, addressing the tight squeeze complaint about adding ingredients to the smaller version), the all metal construction (metal gear housing as well?), burnished tools, and spiral dough hook.

However I don't think I'll be getting one... unless I want to complete my collection of 5 qt and 6 at mixers, which I don't use very often anyway. There is something special about this mixer design, though, which makes them very attractive.

That said, there are some complaints on the Costco web site about the 5.5 model. People having the bowl come loose during mixing (I wonder if they attached it properly, it can be tricky), as well as the bowl mounting brackets falling off (mfg issue?). But most seem delighted with the machine, and some of the complaints do seem to be simply out of ignorance or operator error.

 

[wmlask]

New Kitchenaid Mixer Motor Question

Last year I saw the Candy Apple Red 90th anniversary mixer and decided that I needed to add another mixer to the fleet. This mixer has a tilt head and has motor brush holders visible. What type of motor is being used on the smaller mixers? Is it from Sweden as well?

Thanks,
Bill

 

[mixfinder]

What's Old is New

The majority of tilting head Kitchenaids have the original motor design still assembled in Greeneville. The Accolade, a 5 quart tilt head mixer which is now discontinued used the Swedish motor. The easiest way to know which motor is inside your mixer is to look for the black plastic slotted caps on each side of the mixer.  These unscrew giving access to the carbon brushes.  A word of caution:  If you remove the brushes from a Kitchenaid you'll note they have three squared edges and one cut at an angle.  Unless you replace the brush in the same exact position as it was removed the mixer will not function.

For the most part the design of tilt head models has changed little in the production run of nearly 50+ years In the early 70's solid state controls were added along with crimped connectors replacing wire nuts.  It wasn't until the brouhaus of plastic gears in the past 5 years that Whirlpool replaced the sacrificial gear with one of metal construction.  The discernable change to a highly trained ear is that mixers of solid state technology and all metal gearing are slightly more noisy having a deeper or slightly more growling voice.  To make the Artisan a 5 quart machine and upsell it's larger bowl capacity Kitchenaid added another inch or two to bowl height.  Whether it is useable added capacity is in the eye of the operator.  In my experience it made the addition of ingredients a touch more difficult because it reduced clearance between the mixer head and top of the bowl. A bowl filled to the top leaves the top 3 inches of batter above the level of the paddle less engaged than at the bottom of the bowl.  Regardless in the majority of US kitchens few users mix bowls full, run a mixer long enough to care about the nuanced voice of the machine or find anything to be critical of.  It is the rainbow of colors and everything in between that drives the sale of the Artisan series.  Some models of Artisan come with a glass bowl and it is available through most parts outlets to fit tilting models from the 60s  forward regardless of model.  The glass bowl is quite heavy and flares more at the top giving more room for user interplay with the ingredients. All bowls from the tilt model including the glass bowl of the 4C are interchangable.  There is a 3 quart bowl which can be purchased as well.

Models names have changed recently and the Ultra is now called the Classic Pro, the retired Epicurien has come back to badge a 5.5 narrow bowl machine and in Canada the monikers are different still.  In actual operation it is hard to find a discernable difference in power or peformance between the Classic and more expensive models.  The Classic remains the quietest model Kitchenaid sells.

There have been myriad little issues with the bowl staying put on bowl lift models in the past few years.  My guess is that subtle changes in the specs for metals used for the bowl and bowl retainer clip have changed the fit and finish.  If you are having these issues check the screws in the bowl retainer clip to be sure they're tight and also check the bowl to be sure it is not out of round.  In a few isolated cases the bowl arm itself is out of shape.  Heavier dough and especially pasta dough seems to be the culprit in unseating the bowl while mixing with a dough hook.  Kitchenaid sells bowl clips that secure the bowl over the forward hooks on the bowl arm assembly.  It should be noted that using the clips can etch or scratch the paint on the arm over time.

The Swedish motor provides more torque than the original and is more capable of doing damage to the gearing in a catastrophic obstruction such as an errant spoon or bone fragments in meat that is being ground.  Most gearing failure is due to stress and strain over a longer period of time with yeasted doughs, using the pasta extruder or grain mill. There are better choices for grinding grain in machines that are specifically designed for that purpose.

For those members living in Canada and abroad service is harder to source and taking a Kitchenaid appliance with a US designation out of the country voids the warrantee.  If you have a Canadian machine it cannot be serviced by an authorized Kitchenaid repair outlet in the US.  Service in Canada is provided by contracted technicians and it makes the broad blanket of service harder to find.  It should also be noted that Canadian appliances cost an average of 50% more than their US cousins and the cost of Kitchenaid overseas is exponentially higher.  Kitchenaid mixers sold in Europe, Asia and Australia have an extra retainer ring that fits over the top of the beater.  In order to use the ice cream maker attachment this must first be removed from these models.

All in all Kitchenaid has been pretty good about seeking a resolution with disgruntled customers and are far and away ahead of the competition in this area.  It has been my experience that buying Kitchenaid mixers from ebay, yard sales and classifieds expose the buyer to risk of buying a machine that may have an issue the owner couldn't resolve.  Kitchenaid sells "remanufactured" items that may have been a salemans sample, store display or exchanging  a larger and sometimes noisier bowl lift model for a tilting head. In my days of working at Sunbeam I encouraged buyers to considered a factory serviced resell becuase it gave Sunbeam a second chance at getting it right.

 

[sudsmaster]

Kelly gave a very thorough answer except I think he forgot to add that the mixers with little black brush caps on the head are the original US-made motor design, while the ones without the brush caps are the more recent Swedish design.

Personally I think a brushless design is probably better due to less maintenance and perhaps quieter operation but Kelly might disagree.

On a personal note... I visited Costco today and couldn't resist getting a Silver 5.5 qt 575 watt lift bowl unit during the $50 discount period. There was a stack of mail-in coupons for a free ice cream maker attachment (presumably an outer bowl to hold ice) so I took one of those too. Could be useful for whipping cream and egg whites, too.

The 5.5 bowl model is advertised as being of all metal construction with all metal transmission. Haven't unpacked it as yet. The display model does show that the 5.5 qt bowl is significantly wider than the 5 qt bowl. Probably the same width as the 6 qt bowl.

The Costco 5.5 qt model comes in three colors: black, red, and silver. The silver is more of a shiny gray. Works for me!

 

[mixfinder]

Good News

I'm anxious for you to try the wider bowl design, Rich.  It was the first time I used a Kitchenaid and loved the quick and thorough mixing action.  I  wouldn't be surprised in the narrow bowl tilt head design goes away in the next year or two.

 

The ice cream attachment works well and I have a new 38 inch belt to prove it.  The outer bowl is filled with liquid and must be frozen 24 hours before using. It has been my experience freezing the bowl in a stand apart deep freeze chills the bowl better giving more useful time for mixing and freezing the ice cream.  I am sure you know this already but adding 2 tablespoons vodka prevents the formation of ice crystal in the finished product and the flavor is undettecactble.

 

The older motors built in place with the field circiling the interior of the motor head cavity have been dependable but have less power and and are more expensive to build and maintain. The import motor is clearly more powerful, less expensive and has its famous plug and play design. 

 

It was buried my long response.  I am taking steriods and using a nebulizer 4 times a day so my fingers are on speed coupled with my inherant verbosity.  I continue to work on editing and appreciate your help, Rich.

 

<span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sans-serif;">The majority of tilting head Kitchenaids have the original motor design still assembled in Greeneville. The Accolade, a 5 quart tilt head mixer which is now discontinued used the Swedish motor. The easiest way to know which motor is inside your mixer is to look for the black plastic slotted caps on each side of the mixer. These unscrew giving access to the carbon brushes. A word of caution: If you remove the brushes from a Kitchenaid you'll note they have three squared edges and one cut at an angle. Unless you replace the brush in the same exact position as it was removed the mixer will not function.</span>

 

[sudsmaster]

Thanks Kelley. I didn't miss your passage... but it still doesn't say which is which... I know from previous posts of yours that the older design is the brush design and is made in the USA. But from your passage it could not be established without a doubt that you are saying that the motors without the brush caps are the import Swedish design.

To summarize:

Brush caps on side of motor housing: Original USA made motor

No Brush caps and solid state control: Import Swedish brushless motor

 

[mixfinder]

So Many Words

Thank you Rich for clarifying.  I am the world's worst proof reader and simply read what I want to see regardless.  In reading some of what its apparent I use too many words and modifiers and having referred to several mixers or subjects I may later refer to "it" and "they" leaving the reader in the dust trying to decide which "it" is being referred to.  Add to that old age, a month long course of oral and inhaled steroids and my fingers have experiencedall nighter keyboard frenzy as you have all been party to.

 

[rp2813]

Pro 600 vs Pro 610 vs Pro 620

Kelly, rather than PM you about this, I thought it would be more informative for everyone to have you answer here.

 

From what I've read above, it sounds like the 620 is a quieter machine as a result of having a fiber gear case.  I'm not exactly sure about what the difference is with the 610.  Does it have a fiber gear case as well?  I presume the 600 doesn't have the fiber gear case and would be as loud as my Pro HD.

 

As you know, I'm shopping for my sister's 60th birthday present.  I want to give her the more quiet of the 600 series models, and so far have found 620's for $399 factory refurbished.  If any other of the 600 series models would be equally quiet, I know they can be found for less money, but if the 620 is the quietest of the three, then that's what I will focus on.

 

Thanks for any clarification.

 

Ralph

 

[mixfinder]

In My Humble Opinion

At Kitchenaid forum we were deluged with complaints of excessive noise and size making it cumbersome for average home use. Many tried and true Kitchenaid owners upsized and gifted or sold the former models and then wished for them back. Kitchenaid was good about placing customers in a machine they would like at no charge. Then the attachment craze hit, all nighters on QVC and department stores upselling attachments and having them included free. The majority of Kitchenaid buyers use Kitchenaid mixers as kitchen art because they're trendy. When a novice who hasn't had broad exposure decides to bake bread, extrude fresh pasta and grind wheat, tasks the machine is perfectly capable of doing but if the consistencies are off, or if the dough kneading for 20 minutes is goo, then add a few drinks on a Saturday afternoon and you'll get in trouble. Gearing issues weren't a problem in the early machines because the motor would simply bog down or stop. Introduce the new motor than hits a jam or groans though gummy dough and gearbox issues began to appear. Take the mixer to a repair shop and the friendly counter person would say, we'll replace the "plastic" gear and you'll be on your way. Whirlpool does indeed own Kitcheniad and the rumble became a chant "Whirlpool bought Kitchenaid and ruined it" grew. Viking and Cuisinart were hot to sell mixers and a lot of complaints were planted and placed by company sympathizers. No amount of explaining the sacrificial gear was always there, once fiber and now a resin derivative could quiet the deluded masses. Cuisiniant and Viking touted all metal gears but failed to mention the machine is powered by PTO and plastic belt. No sweat to Kitchenaid, they put a pot metal sacrificial gear in place and off we go.
Separately the early Epicurian and Pro6 had a composite gear case cover. In cases of extreme abuse or catastrophic jam at higher RMPs the pressure on the gearbox would cause one of the retainers to break off the side of the composite cover. In the end, Kitcehaiid replaced the composite cover with metal, not because of it being a "known" issue but to quiet the internet hue and cry. The changes make the gears rattle and the metal cover reverberates it. I have a Pro 620 and it does have a composite gear cover and it is quieter than the 2 Pro6, and noticably louder than the Pro600. Never, ever did I have an issue with the performance, durability, or strength under load. I did and do object to the noise compared to my K45 and K5. I can't answer to current production of 610,copper with copper band around the bowl and Pro620, copper with a stainless bowl. It may be possible WS requested it to have a quieter machine. I am out of the inside loop since this past October so any since would be hearsay.

 

[sudsmaster]

Very interesting, Kelley.

I guess my Epicurean may be one of the early ones, since it is rather quiet and as I recall when I peeked under the top it has a composite gear case cover. Good to hear that it's not going to fail unless really abused.

I have a bread machine for making bread... although I am planning on firing up the meat grinder attachment to make some ground pork out of a pork butt/shoulder I purchased yesterday. It will be the first time I've tried that; I'm thinking I'll also use it for the maiden voyage of the 5.5.

You're right, the KA mixers - esp the lift bowls - are good kitchen art. But they ARE big and heavy. There's really only one spot in my main kitchen where the mixer can sit and operate - to the side of the cooktop on the peninsula. That's because it's the only place with enough clearance under the cabinets (which in that location are level with the lower edge of the range hood). In the enclosed patio, there is at present no good place for it. The one spot where it could live is currently taken up by a microwave as well as a collection of battery chargers (which I think I'll eventually move to the workshop). Once the battery chargers move and the microwave slides over, I think I could place a big KA mixer in that spot. I've noticed that whatever surface it's on needs to be very stable, as in an attached countertop. A free standing table just tends to wobble a bit too much with the planetary gyrations.

 

[circlew]

Kelly, how do the Hobart N50 mixers vary from the 5qt. KitchenAids? There are some obvious appearance differences, but what acccounts for the Hobart costing six times as much? Do the Hobarts handle the attachments better than the KA's?

Also, do KitchenAid and Hobart make their SS bowls, or do they have them made by another company such as Polar Ware or Vollrath?

 

[nmassman44]

The model KA mixer I have is K45SS and the wattage of the motor is 250 watts MAX. She isnt as big as some of the larger KA mixers but it gets the job done. It has never stalled out with heavy cookie batters or even bread dough. The bowl is just the right size of me. This mixer is still going strong after all these years. They certainly dont make them like they used to.

 

[mixfinder]

N-50

<span style="font-size: small;"> </span>

[COLOR=black; font-size: 10.5pt]The N-50 formerly called model G was sold door to door. When the divide between Hobart commercial and Kitchenaid for the homemaker began to widen, in addition to the Model G/N-50, governor controlled mixers that control beater speed by adjusting motor speed were sold door to door for home use though the late 40's. The larger N-50 or its predecessor the model G was based on the commercial mixer which uses a transmission to change beater rpms while the motor runs at a constant speed. You MUST stop the N-50 mixer and allow the beater to come to a complete stop before shifting gears to prevent severe damage to the gear box. Like riding a 3 speed bike, the heavier the pull or load the lower the gear you shift to. The N-50, under a heavy load on speed 3 can stall. I have both a model G and an N-50 which has a 1/8 horsepower motor like you would find in a washing machine. It can run all day without producing great heat or stress to the motor. Later models of the N-50 have a 1/6 hp motor. I find the wider mixer head which <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> [/COLOR]accommodates the larger motor of the N-50 makes it harder to add ingredients to the bowl and regardless of cost or motor at the end of the day all you have is a 5 quart bowl for your investment. The N-50 has 3 speeds which require stopping the motor before changing; it weighs 44 pounds and costs nearly $2,700.00. In my own experience I prefer a tilt head model for ease of adding ingredients and having infinite speeds makes a mixer more user friendly. An N-50 might be a wise investment for someone needing to use the power hub commercially. Every attachment designed to fit the attachment hub in the whole history of Kitchenaid is interchangeable, old on new and new on old. The ice cream attachment can only be used on selected models because it is attached to the planetary.</span>

<span style="font-size: small;"> </span>

[COLOR=black; font-size: 10.5pt]I did not mean to denigrate the original K-45 and K-5 by saying the power of the motor didn't strip the gears. There is a difference between power and torque and the Swedish motor can torque the gearing of the Kitchenaid mixer beyond its tolerances given the right circumstances. I am not a great fan of appliance attachments regardless of any brand. If you're blending and you wish to grind or grate and have only one motor to use it is laborious to keep assembling another part and stop the mixing process while doing so. I have only, ever had one Kitchenaid mixer performance issue and it was while grating yams. Should the Artisan be able to shred a yam?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  [/COLOR]Was I pressing too hard and was the yam larger and more firm than most?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Yes to both answers so I would have to be fair and say the gear failure was due to operator error.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Kitchenaid replaced the mixer under warrantee and in 3 days from phone to box at the door I was back in business. I have Kitchenaid in the collection but most often choose a Sunbeam because it performs better with the style of cooking and baking I do. I have a blender, processor, White Mountain Ice cream maker, and electric can opener, prefer flour milled before it comes home and roll pasta by hand because it's faster. That said I have also used all those attachment, taught their use commercially and tested them in my home with residential mixers. For that reason I would have a hard time justifying the expense of an N-50 and it would frustrate me that I cannot take the mixer to a larger vessel and mix larger volumes of batter or dough. It only stands to reason if you do a lot of cooking and run every attachment from one power source the mixer get more wear and is subject to failure sooner.</span>

<span style="font-size: small;"> </span>

[COLOR=black; font-size: 10.5pt]Each person who buys and uses a mixer should have what ever pleases them and meets their expectation. It isn't as if there will ever be a right or wrong. I cook because I was fascinated with appliances before I could even speak. I am all about using each machine to its absolute fullest for convenience and fun. Its like having a garage full of performance cars and getting to take them on the track each day and see how they perform. When I was younger I bought one of everything I ever heard of and for a spell would use it and extol it's virtue. As I get older I find I am returning to those machines that work intuitively. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> [/COLOR]I can become one with them, not even looking to find the switch that activates it or reach for release and wonder which way the lid twists on to activate the processor. In professional capacities with Sunbeam, General Mills, Centennial Mills, Riches, Sara Lee, LBA, Lang Ovens, Whirlpool, Stouffer Hotels, 3 teaching colleges, 5 major distributers, 53 food manufactures, working with restaurants, health care, schools, military, chain accounts and wholesale food manufacturing I had the rare privilege of seeing first hand how every appliance, attachment and tool performed. It was my job to test each one and choose which maximized the presentation of the products I represented. Conversely I had to be ready to adapt and test the tolerances of the products I represented if the site I was at did not the correct machine specified in the directions attached. I would say" there is a perfect world and then one we live in"<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>and some times we have s##t what we need. </span>

<span style="font-size: small;"> </span>

[COLOR=black; font-size: 10.5pt]Cooking flows from within the depths of my soul. Its wonderful to take a full day pouring my soul into a dinner for people I love and expressing love without making guests self conscious.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  [/COLOR]There are times like last night when guests were coming at 6:00 and I didn’t get home until 4:00.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I had already planned the menu and had only a couple hours to prepare. Those opportunities allow me to return to the trenches and pull up efficiencies, time management and multi tasking, and using all the short cuts I know.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>My mom began years ago trying to make every task easier, lighter, less steps, less work and today she’s a bowl of<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>jell-O.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>I was tempted to change the menu or augment homemade with something off the shelf but her words ring in my ears and always propel me to do it the way it should be done. The Sunbeam mixer made a genoise, kneaded dough, mixed salad dressing, and whipped cream.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The processor mixed pasta and sliced strawberries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>The electric frying pan browned the multi layered ingredients of Beef Bourguignonnne <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>then braised it, holding perfect temperature.</span>

<span style="font-size: small;"> </span>

<span style="font-size: small;">Its never my intent to sound smug, put any one down and especially not to be critical of something another person owns or has just purchased regardless of my own convictions. Pride of ownership is wonderful feeling and should be exalted.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Food, appliances and cooking are how I made my living and have been the one and only thing I know how to do well. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>After 50 years I should be good in the kitchen or give up so I hope my words regarding food doesn’t come off as bragging.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>As I said earlier, if everything I owned were destroyed today and I was choosing a replacement from the shelf of a department store, I would buy a Kitchenaid Classic because it is dependable, backed by the best customer service in the states, affordable, will do everything I need, is intuitive to use and is relatively quiet.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>That said, any mixer is better than no mixer at all.[COLOR=black; font-size: 10.5pt] [/COLOR]</span>

 

<span style="font-size: small;">Let me introduce the line up beginning on the left.  The denuded mixer is a K-4 that survived a house fire, has a 4 quart bowl with paddle, whip and dough hook, appearing in the late 40's and selling until the late 50's.  The K-4 is very quiet.  Next is the model 3 introed in 1937 with a three speed motor and a cool whip/paddle that looked like it had a cocktail strainer in the middle of a paddle.  This mixer would soon have a 10 speed motor and all purpose beater that resembles a pastry cutter.  The 3 and 3B was produced until its replacement by the 3C in 1951.  The 4C followed the the 3C in 1959 and was discontinued in 1974, having a bowl that not only held more but it's rounder shape meant less slpashing.  (I have a friend that says Kitchenaid mixers have two speeds, 2 feet and 6 feet depending on how far they throw food)  All models of the 3 and 4 had only 1 all purpose beater. Next the ubiquitos Classic with a 4.5 quart bowl hence model K45, that sports a dough hook, whip and paddle.  This model was introduced in 1959 and is still available.  The dazzling copper Pro620 proprietary to Williams Sonoma, has a 6 quart bowl that is wider and flatter than any Kitchenaid before.  Its mixing dynamic is phenominal requiring no manual assist and mixing thoroughly and evenly top to bottom.  The flatter desing allows more room for adding ingredients and it splashes and poofs flour less than narrower profiles. The Pro series all have the Swedish motor we have spoken to that has a higher pitch and whine to it's voice.  This model has a fiber gear case cover and internal thermal fude that will stop the machine if it senses it is overloaded.  The mixer will begin again in 2 - 10 minutes depending on how long it had been running. Of the four Pro series I have owned the copper Pro620 is the quietest, but still persisitent in mixing for long periods or at higher speeds.  The silver behemouth is a chrome Model G made in the mid 30's and purchased at an estate sale in the midwest.  It has a 5 quart bowl and the three standard beaters.  Any bowl or beater that fits a K5 is interchangeable with an N-50.</span>

 

[mixfinder]

Cool Dude

Thank you Jared for initiating a discussion that has been fun and interesting for me.  You haven't told us which model of Kitchenaid you have or your experiences related to it which would be nice to hear.

 

[sudsmaster]

I yam what I yam...

 

[mixfinder]

Chuckle

Rich, you have a delicious mastry of lexicon and it serves you well here.  I yam so glad I didn't use sweet potatoes.  Thanks for keeping me legit, on point and ever challenging me to be on guard. 

 

[sudsmaster]

Kelly,

You sure are mixing it up there.

After reading about your mixing adventures I guess I don't feel so bad about accumulating three lift bowl KA mixers in the past 10 years: the 475 watt 6 qt Epi, the 475 watt 5 qt Pro, and the 575 watt 5.5 qt Pro. Although the 5 qt and 5.5 at are still new in box, I guess I'll always have a spare ready if need be! And I really do plan on unboxing one or both of them soon, as I'd like to be able to leave one in the main kitchen and have a second one ready to go in the enclosed patio kitchen. And there's always the Model 9 Sunbeam to fall back on, seems to work fine too, as well as an old five speed KA hand mixer which I have stored "somewhere".

Truth be told most of the use the 6 qt Epi has gotten over the years has been grating various kinds of soap for use in the washers. I've made a few batches of oatmeal cookies in it, but not for a while. My problem is that I have to watch my carb intake (diabetes) and a lot of foods that need a mixer are high carb content. It's not that I couldn't eat some of them, but the large quantities that these mixers can prepare would be serious overkill in my case, and one can only give away so much food at work... Hence my interest for using the meat grinder attachment next.

 

[luxflairguy]

Rich, it's time you gave this a rest. You always have to respond in a negative tone to the information that is being presented. And now it's like I don't bake because I can't have sugar, etc... You've said enough! Greg