Monitoring laundry detergent performance and use

[arbilab]

First, my credentials: I'm a laundromaniac from around 1953. Also an emulsion chemist from 1995 when I invented my own skin lotion (I have a minor medical problem). Skin lotion is an emulsion in which the surfactant/detergent exactly balances the amount of oil. Laundry is an emulsion in which the surfactant/detergent must precisely exceed the amount of oil/soil. If it falls short, oil (sebum) redeposits and laundry comes out dingy/dirty. More detergent than needed is wasteful as well as creating a problem for some machines handling suds.

Suds: Conventional laundry detergents contain suds boosters. They contribute absolutely nothing to cleaning according to my 1965 biology professor. They're only PR. Women expect suds to equal cleaning and the chemists oblige. But suds DO tell us something. Especially when they're not 'boosted'. Like in HE formulas.

You NEED to see suds in a FL/HE machine. If you don't, the surfactant is saturated with all the oils it can suspend*. On the first rinse, most of the surfactant leaves. But the oil continues to exit the fabric. If there's no surfactant to suspend it, it will redeposit on clothes and you don't want that.

So 'no suds' is never good in a wash cycle. Other side of the coin, billowing suds means you have more than enough to suspend soil. In a conventional formula, amount of suds is partially related to suds boosters. In an HE formula, billowing suds means you used way too much.

*Soil suspension: Detergents can't stop at loosening soil, they have to suspend it ionically so it doesn't redeposit. That's why you want a little surfactancy headroom remaining after first rinse. If second rinse produces no suds at all, you may have starved the wash cycle. The reason there is no suds is the remaining soil is glomming the remaining surfactant, which leads to redeposition.

This process encapsulates why frontloaders with multiple small rinses always outclean toploaders with one refill rinse. "Rinse" is extrapolated wash. Final rinse should produce little standing (stays bubbly when agitation ceases) suds. If it does, you used more than you needed. If OTOH the second rinse produces no standing suds at all, you used too little.

If on the third hand you use a toploader with single rinse, you're not really getting the job done. Detergent is a skin irritant and you want the least amount possible left in your clothes. Single rinse is the worst of both worlds. Remnant soil and remnant detergent.

 

[dj-gabriele]

Suds are needed... but only in the USA!

Dear Arbilab, you should come over here (any country of your choice in Europe) and see how washing is done here or test a sample of any European detergent, virtually, even in the most clean load, you're not going to see any foam at all unless it is the occasional bubble coming at the door.

To see some foaming you should use a big overdose of detergent or use a handwashing product, otherwise anti-foaming agents do their job in an excellent way.

This photo is my laundry tumbling on delicates at 40°C with a dose of concentrated Dixan liquid and not a single bubble is coming up but the results will be sparkling the same.

 

[strongenough78]

Actually more and more of us in the U.S. are leaning towards low suds. I know I am. And my clothes come out just as clean and they don't irritate my skin. And Gabriele, I just remembered we were going to exchange some detergents like a long time ago and I am SO sorry I never got back to you on that. I've been hit with some hard times lately and my mind has been slipping big time. I came across our emails the other day and I felt mortified with myself that I never got back to you! Once I'm working again and can afford it I'd still like to send you some of what we have, that is if you're still interested. Again I am so very sorry about that!

 

[roscoe62]

@dj

Well I must say that that is how a liquid should perform and not with a soap lock as I have always had in the past when using a liquid. I did try a new product I received in the mail named Purex with Zout and it is made for all machines, and it worked pretty good.I was very careful with dosage so I used the sample in two loads, and no suds issue. Maybe here in North America manufacturers are finally catching on.
Thanks for the pics
d

 

[MrX]

Laundry detergent formulations have moved far beyond old-fashioned soapy surfactants. They are pretty seriously complicated products.

Persil Bio Powder (Unilever)

Sodium carbonate Builder
Zeolite Builder
Sodium sulfate Bulking Agent
Sodium Carbonate Peroxide Oxidising Agent
Sodium Dodecylbenzenesulfonate Surfactant
Aqua Bulking Agent
C12-15 Pareth-5 Surfactant
TAED Bleach Precursor
Sodium Silicate Builder
Citric acid Builder
C12-15 Pareth-7 Surfactant
Sodium Acrylic Acid/MA Copolymer Structurant
Sodium Stearate Surfactant
Bentonite Softness Extender
Stearic Acid Surfactant
Parfum Fragrance
Corn Starch Modified Enzyme Stabiliser
Tetrasodium Etidronate Sequestrant
Sodium chloride Bulking Agent
Calcium Sodium EDTMP Sequestrant
Disodium Anilinomorpholinotriazinylaminostilbenesulfonate Optical Brightener
Polyethylene Terephthalate Anti-redeposition Agent
Cellulose Gum Anti-redeposition Agent
Butylphenyl Methylpropional Fragrance
Phenylpropyl Ethyl Methicone Antifoaming Agent
Cellulose Binder
Calcium carbonate Bulking Agent
Polyoxymethylene Melamine Process by-product
Sodium bicarbonate Bulking Agent
Glyceryl Stearates Emulsion Stabiliser
PEG-75 Binder
Kaolin Bulking Agent
Titanium dioxide Colourant
Citronellol Fragrance
Imidazolidinone Process by-product
Sodium Polyacrylate Structurant
Dextrin Binder
Protease Enzyme
Sodium Thioglycolate Process by-product
Sucrose Binder
Sorbitol Enzyme Stabiliser
Aluminum Silicate Builder
Sodium Polyaryl Sulphonate Process by-product
Lipase Enzyme
Amylase Enzyme
Xanthan gum Process by-product
Hydroxypropyl methyl cellulose Binder
CI 61585 Colourant
Sodium Thiosulfate Enzyme Stabiliser
CI 45100 Colourant
Mannanase Enzyme
CI 42090 Colourant
CI 12490 Colourant
CI 11680 Colourant

Persil Bio Small and Might Liquid :

Aqua Solvent
C12-15 Pareth-7 Surfactant
Sodium Dodecylbenzenesulfonate Surfactant
TEA-Cocoate Surfactant
Sodium Laureth Sulfate Surfactant
Sodium citrate Builder
Parfum Fragrance
Propylene glycol Hydrotrope
Sorbitol Enzyme Stabiliser
Sodium sulfate Process by-product
DASC-4 Optical Brightener
Glycerin Viscosity Controlling Agent
Butylphenyl Methylpropional Fragrance
Styrene/Acrylates Copolymer Opacifier
Citronellol Fragrance
Protease Enzyme
Triethanolamine Solvent
Boronic acid, (4-formylphenyl) Enzyme Stabiliser
Geraniol Fragrance
Amylase Enzyme
CI 42051 Colourant
Polyvinyl Alcohol Additive
Mannanase Enzyme
Benzisothiazolinone Preservative
Sodium Lauryl Sulfate Surfactant

 

[donprohel]

For mrx

I have some doubts about your lists, not about the ingredient, but about their function.

Zeolite, as far as I know, is an anti-scale agent (and, by the way, is used to replace the Sodium Tri Poly Phosphate). Instead in your list it appears as "Builder" which, I assume, is something like a "filler", a non-active agent used to "make volume".

The same applies to Sodium Citrate: as far as I know it in another anti-scale agent, but is described as "Builder".

I find also strange that a powder contains sodium chloride (table salt): salt is used in liquid detergents (washing up, shampoos, bath foams, etc.) because it increases the "thickness" of the liquid and gives a feeling of "better quality" (it's thick! it's good!).

Is it possible that your information come from Unilever and so... well, let's say they could be a little "unreliable"? Or am I misunderstanding the terms you use?

 

[MrX]

"Builder" in this context is terminology used to describe a water-softening component of a complex detergent.

From P&G :

"Builders are materials that can bind cations (mainly calcium, Ca2+, and magnesium Mg2+) contained in wash solutions, resulting in water softening.
Builders improve the quality of the water, hence letting the detergents work in a more efficient way. They soften water by binding free water hardness ions (magnesium, calcium). This prevents those particles to react with other detergent ingredients, which would cause them to work less efficiently or precipitate from solution (soap scum). They can form insoluble salts that become encrusted in the fabrics and deposit on solid surfaces inside the washing machine. In this way builders extend the life of the washing machine. Soil molecules are often bound to the fabric surface by calcium ion bridging; removal of hardness from the environment therefore helps stain removal. Sometimes more than one builder is used in a product, to create a builder system with improved cleaning performance."

 

[MrX]

Fillers / non-active components of the powder are described as "Bulking agents" in that Unilever list.

The list is published as a EU regulatory requirement so it had better be accurate or they're in big trouble.

The terminology is just what's used in large-scale industrial chemical processes. It's not what you'd call those components in normal household terminology.

 

[donprohel]

Thank you for the explanation, mrx

 

[arbilab]

Fascinating that Euro formulates, markets, documents detergent very differently from US. I'm sure we use some of the same ingredients, recognized some, can't pronounce some (heheheh). My box of Tide HE says "ingredients include biodegradable surfactants and enzymes, contains no phosphorus" and that's all you get. That I know, mfrs are not required to publish contents for detergents.

But Euro gets NO SUDS AT ALL? (caps because italics not available) For heaven sake, if I just put water in a bottle and shake it it develops short-lived bubbles. Love to sit down with a detergent chemist for a nice long lunch. Make that 2, one US and one Euro.

For example, anti-suds agents tend to be hydrophobic, mostly the last thing you'd want in detergent. Softeners are hydrophobic. If you had any suds, softener will kill them. It also builds up in fabrics. Makes nice soft towels that are water resistant. I've sworn off softeners.

I have splinters of information that professional laundry chemistry is different yet from home laundry, but little in the way of detail.

 

[dj-gabriele]

Well, my sister is a chemist, maybe I could ask her if you have any special question.
I'm not saying that a European makes any suds at all, but that the phenomenon is very limited to just a few bubbles here and there.

Only P&G products that I used, like DASH powder and Arial excel gel are a little more sudsier, if you overdose them slightly, you can actually see a little bubbling.

It I use Dixan (Henkel) or Deox (Italian Madel) or Chanteclair (Real Chimica), usually I don't see any suds at all during the wash.

 

[3beltwesty]

What really matters is your "stuff gets clean enough" for your criteria.

Dwelling on the suds as being a factor is really wonky.

One can have a super super short wash cycle with massive suds and the ones stuff may not be all washed.

One can drop a greasy pair of blue jeans in a 5 gallon bucket and add very little soap and let them sit 1/2 day and with time a huge amount of the oils will be removed with no suds.

 

[stan]

??

Arbilab. After reading your post, I'm not sure what point your trying to make? After the statements on suds/surfactants and so forth, you don't recommend a specific product, procedure, or appliance to achieve this? Tell us what YOU use! and how. (and by the way most modern detergents have suds suppressors in them) Even laundry soaps( Fels and Octagon) make it difficult to achieve suds, due to the water conditions most people have, and that they are too fatty to foam the way they use to!

 

[laundromat]

I love Gain!!!! No matter what their formula is. It smells great and gets my wash absolutely fabulous!!

 

[arbilab]

I'm not sure what point your trying to make?
=============================================

Just discussion and we've had some interesting data come out especially the Euro perspective very unlike what's sold here.

I use Tide (PG) HE powder. It does suds but not billow unless way too much is used for how soiled the load is. I spoze if there's any "point" that was it, that 'some' sudsing allows gauging detergent amount to load. And the indication is fairly sensitive.

Example, start of cycle before much oil is emulsified, might suds but a few minutes later they can be gone as more oil leaves fabric into water. IOW, suds gauges how much load the detergent is carrying. At least with this particular formula.

BTW, how is water in Europe far as dissolved solids (hardness)? Much of US is pretty hard. Usually measured in parts per million, dissolved solids here are one part per THOUSAND. Boiled water will curdle if you wait a while.

 

[dj-gabriele]

Arbilab: as far as water hardness I can say that the hardest water in the USA is regarded as of medium hardness over here.

As an example: I read that hard water in the USA is considered "hard" starting at 14 grains per gallon, that is 24 French degrees and it is considered normal over here.
Hard water is considered "hard" when it has a value superior of 41 °f (that is 24,6 grains).
In my flat the reported water hardness is of 39-40 French degrees.

Again the only different guys are those from P&G that say that "hard" water starts at 25°f. Of course, if you were to use that much detergent in that water, you'd have to rinse stuff three times to get rid of the detergent! (And not because of oversudsing)

 

[dj-gabriele]

If I have a look at my SMEG (italian made) dishwasher manual, it says that "hard" water is over 40°, according to what we're used to.

 

[arbilab]

Mercy! Might explain how the Euro detergent market is so different from US.

I can't explain why water here (DFW, north Texas) is so hard. It's mostly surface water, rivers and rainfall reservoirs. Ground water you'd expect that, lounging about limestone for a century.

In northern California it's melted snow. Not hard, but tastes rather like algae and rust from the pipework. No problem, a little charcoal filtering sorts that up.

In Oklahoma city we had a new reservoir and plant and an old one. My part of town was supplied by the new one. It made clear ice cubes so couldn't have been 'all that' hard. One day they turned cloudy. I called the utility to ask what changed. Sure enough, one of the new pumps failed and the old plant was making up the shortfall.

 

[mrboilwash]

Arbilab, I totally agree with you. Even though most of the European detergents are very low sudsing, I still want to see some suds in the rinses. Otherwise I believe the wash might have been saturated with oils and soils. But I also have to say that my Miele FL is programmed to high level rinses, I doubt that I would see many suds in the rinses on the original watersaving setting. I think to recall having read somewhere that sudsing is mostly contolled by the mix of certain surfactants. For example some sufactants can be quite foamy by themselves but when mixed right then there is no need for suds contolling agents.

There is one more thing I frequently monitor. I check for a "bathtub ring" at the water line after the last rinse with liquid fabric softener. If there is one, my conclusion is I have used to little detergent. Might be wrong on this one.