My new washer - A week full of disappointment!

[henene4]

The feature thing

I looked at the new washer dryer entry range and it is pretty bare bones.

So is my machine: It's the cheapest base machine with PowerWash and 1600rpm.

These entry machines do compromise on the feature set.

2 ways marketing goes about this.

First of most people don't actually care.

They slashed the prewash and separate rinse cycle on the washer dryers.

Which sounds horrific for most people who care about laundry.

However on the Hotpoint side, washers without a prewash have been successfully selling for a decade and more now.

Most people NEVER even use the additional rinse programm.

So slashing that while keeping the key features (short, delicate drying, high spin) gives a good entry machine for many.

And for them, they save by for example using the smaller drum, ditching the WPS and the second pump for PowerWash to still get that margin.

Second off:

They wanted to get a better entry position price wise.

They knew that walking past the cheapest Miele washer dryer at over 1500€ would scare many off.
They wouldn't even wanna know about them at that price point.
So no chance even starting a talk about them.

Now, the cheapest machine starts at 1399€ (so 1299€ retail).
They still have Miele as a brand in their head.
And sure it is 400€ more to comparable higher end machines.
But quality.

From there if they are interested you got a starting point.

You can then lead them on to Miele's advantages and compare that to other machines (like Bosch's offerings).

The better moisture sensing.
Lower water usage during drying.
Better laundry care over all.

They did the same with their DW (Active with the upgrade path to AutoOpen), their ovens (the 2000 series that doesn't offer PyroFit even though it totally could) and their coffee makers (5000 series with the upgrade path to more functions and physically bigger machines).
Higher quality.
Flexibility (programming).

And then if they say they would be ready to invest that extra money you can talk about the upgrade to the 1 line display machine or even the M-Touch.

Then you can ask the questions like if they would need these additional options (more cycles, pre wash), the PowerWash or the TwinDos.

 

[henene4]

Just for giggles

I timed heating on the "worst case scenario" for PW.

Load was 3/4 full of heavy towels on Cottons 60C.

I'll explain what I think might be going on in a second post in a minute.

This timing is from the first moment the heater is engaged to very last deactivation.
Given the load should have pulled the max of 8l of water for saturation, there shouldn't be a much longer heating stage for PW cycles.

Time total: 53:37.36

Odd numbers are heater on.
Even numbers heater off.

1, ‎0 ‎19,65
2, ‎0 ‎10,13
3, ‎3 ‎41,90
4, ‎1 ‎04,34
5, ‎0 ‎49,89
6, ‎0 ‎56,07
7, ‎0 ‎47,91
8, ‎1 ‎00,65
9, ‎0 ‎47,34
10, ‎0 ‎54,24
11, ‎0 ‎43,32
12, ‎0 ‎59,04
13, ‎0 ‎45,68
14, ‎1 ‎00,54
15, ‎0 ‎44,15
16, ‎0 ‎59,98
17, ‎0 ‎42,41
18, ‎0 ‎49,85
19, ‎0 ‎35,85
20, ‎0 ‎59,25
21, ‎0 ‎38,94
22, ‎1 ‎00,57
23, ‎0 ‎39,64
24, ‎1 ‎02,63
25, ‎0 ‎38,80
26, ‎0 ‎58,20
27, ‎0 ‎39,67
28, ‎1 ‎06,05
29, ‎0 ‎39,53
30, ‎1 ‎05,94
31, ‎0 ‎35,61
32, ‎1 ‎02,66
33, ‎0 ‎34,82
34, ‎0 ‎59,77
35, ‎0 ‎31,78
36, ‎0 ‎57,39
37, ‎0 ‎34,37
38, ‎1 ‎32,45
39, ‎1 ‎20,13
40, ‎1 ‎25,45
41, ‎0 ‎38,38
42, ‎1 ‎10,92
43, ‎0 ‎40,87
44, ‎1 ‎16,79
45, ‎0 ‎37,27
46, ‎1 ‎11,10
47, ‎0 ‎35,68
48, ‎1 ‎14,27
49, ‎0 ‎36,65
50, ‎1 ‎12,37
51, ‎0 ‎35,12
52, ‎1 ‎12,56
53, ‎0 ‎34,30
54, ‎1 ‎12,77
55, ‎0 ‎34,26
56, ‎1 ‎20,67
57, ‎0 ‎32,66
58, ‎1 ‎18,48
59, ‎0 ‎04,24
60, ‎0 ‎01,16

 

[chachp]

<span style="font-family: helvetica;"> </span>

<span style="font-family: helvetica;">This is my Rinse/Spin.  I had the closed tap (not sure exactly what it said) once when the machine was new.  Haven't had it since.  The WiFi on mine is OK but takes so long to connect sometimes and other times it's pretty quick.  I do most from the console and use the app more to monitor what's going on.  Overall, I am happy with mine.  Going on about a year now.  It's the best cleaning machine I've ever had.  I thought my Bosch Axxis+ was the best but I like this one even better.</span>

 

[henene4]

Just had to grab my laptop

So, I wrote an E-Mail to Miele service a couple of weeks ago with my findings regarding the cooldown issue.
No reply, didn't expect one.
Gonna give up on ever having a cool down feature on this washer.

It is what it is...

Now onto my final analysis of PW2.0 heating.

I wanted to time this worst case scenario as it displays some of the more interesting implications of what is going on while heating.

The main wash is designed to last basically eactly 90min from the moment heating begins until first drain.
Short on 60C basically eliminates all post heating washing, I think like 5min before dilution are left in.

If the load is very absorbent - like in this case - the machine can actually run the full load rinse pattern after a PW2.0 main wash.
The machine senses the absorbency while filling for the dilution during the last minutes of the wash. If it is higher than expected for a partial load it will add some time after the interim spin and run a rinse and spin pattern like it was a large load washed without PW.
Very nice for loads like towels.

Now onto heating.

The first 30sec are always 20sec heater on, 10sec heater on.
That is true for any steam phase, so pre ironing aswell.

I assume this is some form of calibration.
Either sensing current or temperature increase to adapt and counteract voltage fluctuations.

Then the first long heating is needed to get the water up to steaming temp - I'd guess around 80-85C.

This heating is temperature bounded both upper and lower.

So heater disengages around that 80C top boundary and disengages around the lower temp.

That lower temp is certainly above 55C.
The "Stop&Add" feature is relativley "dumb" so to say; during the mainwash it is only limited by the temperature sensed by the NTC in the tub and water level.
So if it would drop below 55C, you can pause and open the door.

My best guess would be it is actually much higher (like 70C or so).

Next you have to understand that there are 2 distinct halfs cut of by cycles 38, 39 and 40.

That is where the machine added some water.
Really not much, a glass full maybe.

That is done due to evaporation transferring water from the sump to the load.

38 is where it paused for like 20sec, added the water.
39 is where the machine had to get the new water up to temp.
40 is where that additional water has the greatest ability to transfer heat.

Cause there are several dynaimcs working towards and against each other that only come out during this long heating stint.

At first, the tub isn't quite heated up yet and the laundry is cool.

As the tub gets to water temperature, the heating time drops rapidly.
It settles in between 40 and 30 sec for each heating interval.

Next you'll see the time with the heater off first increases and then slowly decreases.

That first increase is as everything slowly increases in temperature.

But then, both times drop more less in unison.

As water evaporates from the sump, there is less thermal mass.

This means it both takes less time to heat up the water in the sump and it takes less time for the temp to drop since there is less energy to be transfered.

Once the machine upped the water level in the sump again, the time between heating goes up again significantly while the heating time itself levels at around 40-30sec.

At lower temps, evaporation plays a significantly lower role in that heating time.

Any more water that needs to be heated and the time goes up so much it becomes unreasonable and less efficent.

That's also the reason that system saves more at lower temps.

While for full load vs half load on Cottons 40C you get a reduction of about 40% in energy usage, at 60C you get a split of maybe 25%.

Washing full loads is still much more efficient, but from my previous machine that had EcoFeedback, I can attest that PW saves a good 10-20% on partial loads.

 

[henene4]

Software Update

So, I got an update a couple of days ago.

That fixed the cool down issue.

Apparently all cycles at 20C or cold now no longer run PW.

I rarely use those, but sometimes my darks are just very lightly soiled, and then I sometimes use a long Cotton's 20C.
Was kinda confused why it wasn't starting in PW mode today, checked my settings, then started it at 30C and it did it.

So I guess that 20C either just defaults to that for some performance reason or it checks room temp like the sensor drying on their DW does.
If the room is 20C or above, laundry will inevitably get to 20C without heating.

 

[jerrod_six]

Could the machine just heat to 20c without using powerwash, since it is a low temperature?

 

[stephen]

PowerWash

And on my WWH860, my PW only works on 20/Cold.

 

[henene4]

I would assume that just by the nature of things, they would use PW whenever possible when heating is required.

And it did use it on 20C beforehand.
Never washed in plain cold - my cold water ist just to frigid even in summer here at the coast.