My new washer - A week full of disappointment!

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henene4

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So, this week had some ups and downs in my private life, mostly downs.

But I got my new washer!

Spoiler alert:
If you plan on buying a Miele WWF360 WPS here in Europe, I would probably advise against it at this very point.

Why?
I'm 90% sure it has one major programming flaw and I am currently in the process of checking for sure that that is true.

Now the positives:

PowerWash2.0 (now called just PowerWash) is still as good as it used to be.
Very effective, very efficent.

I do like the DirectSensor controls actually alot more more then the one line display machine I had before.
It's much easier and much more comprehensible, much more clean, less cluttered.

The model I chose hit's the sweetspot IMO as it has 1600rpm, PW and the large drum yet can be had for around 1000€.

It lacks some of the speciality cycles that I rarely use anyway.
Only notable omission that sucks (especially if you read the last bit) is a rinse only cycle.
You can work around that, but meh.

So far I have been running some loads.

The bedding loads I ran were very good.
It limited the spin for one blanket I washed, but otherwise flawless performance.

I used the Eco 40-60 cycle for a medium load of darks and it actually washed and rinsed very nice.
It heats to about 30 - like the old Eco 40, maybe a tad higher - in PW mode and rinses twice but with way higher water levels compared to the Eco.
And it is shorter.

The long Cottons cycles have a 2-peak spin.
That is something I observed only on our Bauknecht we had back home.
The machine runs a normal spin up to 1600rpm and stays there for a couple of minutes, then slows down in a controlled ramp to about 800rpm, then right back up to 1600rpm for another 2 minute peak.
Supposedly improofs extraction and spins are good as usual.

The machine can run a boilwash for a full load in 2h spot on, 2:16h if you want 3 rinses.

Normal cycles are still all below 3h, max Cottons cycle is 3:20 (40C, prewash and extra rinse).

Haven't used the new QuickPowerWash yet but will today.

WiFi-setup was way better then the last machine, done in minutes with no hickups.
Though that might just be my new router.

One interesting thing is that the WPS valve on the hose is no longer branded Miele but Bitron instead.
Bitron is a large supplier of many appliance components; small stuff like valves and pressure switches up to motor controlers and main PCBs.
That struck me as odd but not problematic though it is interesting that our Bauknecht back home that had that double-peak spin as well and that used a Bitron made PCB.

Also, they changed the water inlet setup.
It still has that door rinse thing, however that no longer has its own supply.
For rinses and so forth it fills through the prewash and some water is diverted into there.
The machine also dosen't appear to use a motorized water diverter leading me to belive all water inlet components are now Bitron and it uses a tripple valve or maybe even just a dual valve as the spray for the softner compartment is somewhat weaker compared to the water diverter setup my old one had from what I remeber.

As I said before, in general, these are the most efficent machines in day to day use that are on the market currently.
They wash, rinse and spin flawlessly and are very versatile.

Now, my issue.

I have my machine setup in my bedding wash mode right now.
That is Water Plus set up with the max water increase and as both more water and extra rinse plus maximum water level for the rinses.

Ontop of that I have turned on the cool down as usual.

I ran my first of 4 loads of bed stuff yesterday which ran through Cottons 90C.
And right when the cool down should have happended, the machine stopped with an F010 error which is a closed tap error.
I was in crafaffel and my tap is somehwat wonky to begin with, so I colsed it completly and opened it completly again thinking I must have closed it myself for some reason (you know, just ADD stuff).

That was annoying since I couldn't run a rinse only cycle.
Further, the machine keeps you from starting a new cycle until it has cooled down below 55C.
And the machine beeps at you continously until you turn it off and you can't recover the cycle from there.

So I turned it off, back on to drain, back off again, added a couple of liters of cold water which dropped the tmep low enough to then run Shirts cycle with on cold with short and water plus (which makes this a 4 rinse cycle in just over an hour with short puls interim spins).

Not thinking much of it I ran the last bit of bed stuff again today on Cottons 90C with Short and Water Plus.

And it did the same thing, again, right when the cooldown should have happend.

Had to go throught the same procedure again.

My old machine form Miele had some weired programming quirks as well.
For example when selecting Intensive on Cottons 90C that machine just skipped over wash drain and spin, filled with more water after skipping to the rinse portion and then spun and went right into the final rinse.

But here you just can't use the cool down function apparently.

I'll run some verification cycles to see if it really is just the cool down programming.

But I already notified Miele.

I can always just request an exchange machine from the place I bought it since it isn't even a week old.
(I bought the machine from my work place, so no biggie, but since it runs I'd rather have Miele deal with it.)

However I suppose that is a general programming issue that is quite likely specific to that very model.
Thus I just can't recomend it for what it costs.
 
no rinse-only cycle

I have a Miele W3831, I have no idea how old it is, I rescued it from a skip behind the store, it was traded in as "faulty." I forget its fault but it was trivial, I now have the best washer I have ever owned.

but it drives me crazy because it doesn't have a "rinse only" option. It is disappointing to read that even new Miele washers miss this essential programme.

I have psoriasis and have to be very careful with washing. I always select "water plus" but this still only has 3 rinses. My old LG had 4 rinses. I see the difference in my skin. for years I never had any psoriatic lesions on my skin. Now I have to be very careful with choice of detergent and still I have blotches on my skin, currently 3 patches. That is using a hypo-allergenic detergent and always selecting water plus.

My skin specialist has told me to do extra rinses and try other brands of gentle detergent. I will go back to my old faithful detergent (Abode) and will have to follow every wash (I use cottons cycle for everything, usually 50 degrees, sometimes 60 degrees C) with an express wash, no detergent, which takes 30 minutes and equates to 3 more rinses.

I would love to have a 15 minute, 1 or 2 more rinses cycle. (Extra rinse could be 1 rinse, extra rinse + water plus could be 2 rinses...)

Miele seem to have weird cycles, I wonder about the thinking that happens there. It is a lovely machine, though.
 
Mine lacks it since they crammed some cycles on there and it only has 12 cycle slots.

So they pushed that out.

It is WiFi connected though, so I am somewhat disappointed that even through the app you can't set a rinse only cycle.

The LG I had could do that.

It's odd your machine has no max rinse level programming option.

But these machines should have that burrier somewhere in the programming.

You could always ask Miele for help.
They can usually guide you through the programming of such options on the phone without a costly technician visit.
 
Sorry to hear you`re disappointed with your new Miele.
Many years ago when I took delivery of my Miele I`ve been disappointed too because I compared it to other washers I`ve had before.
My crappy Indesit had rinse water levels half way up the door and a very accurate infinite thermostat which I liked.
My pre-Electrolux AEG Lavamat rinsed better on cotton cycles and never missed a spin even though it was one of the first ones with out of balance control.
A Siwamat washer-dryer had the best way of dispensing FS. Always on wet clothes, never right after the intermittent spin.
Had an Electrolux based Lavamat for just a few months wich was best at distributing clothes quick and evenly before spinning.

After a rough start and some service calls the Miele has finally grown on me.
Have changed my laundry habits for instance I wash my 60° loads now on 75° since I found out that 60° on the Miele dial means only 55°, and since I`ve raised the front legs a little bit I haven`t had problems with undetected (ignored) sudslocks or spins not picking up to full speed as it was the case before.
Today I wouldn`t want to trade it for any other washer on the market.

My point is give it a chance. No washer on earth is perfect.
Of course the cool down thing is unacceptable and has to be repaired or updated or whatever.

Personally I wouldn`t miss the rinse only cycle of my old Miele because it`s just two high level rinses on delicate agitation without extraction between rinses. Not very useful for me, but that`s only me.
What I do instead is to start a cycle of choice and then immediately skip the wash part by turning the dial to "end" which gives me the perfect extra rinses for any fabric. One thing I miss is that I can`t skip the rinse and do a last rinse with FS only. But there`s still the starch cycle as a substitute for that.
I hope there`s still a possibility to skip the wash part on newer Mieles, otherwise I would be doomed if I had to pick a new washer.
 
Rinse only

For those of us who still use starch (such as for linens or dress shirts), loss of that cycle would be a disaster. One reason love my older Miele W1070 is because of that cycle. Happily both the AEG Lavamat and Electroloux AEG Toplader offer, so that's me for you.....

Also like rinse only coupled with spin for things that were laundered by hand. Machine rinsing removes last traces of detergent or soap hand rinsing might have missed, and tends to get things more evenly distributed for easier final spin to remove water.

While sad, suppose Miele has no other choice nowadays but to go with flow and try to produce washers that meet ever increasing energy guidelines, what they think consumers want, and at price points that machines will sell.
 
What does it take to add a rinse and spin cycle these days of electronic wizardry. It's not like there is any mechanics going on to do so.. Just a programming addition. Such as on my LG, there are 4 or 5 programs including a rinse and spin on the dial that you can add or subtract rinses, spin speeds, etc etc. However on the app there is around 14 more cycles.. So why wouldn't Miele just add a rinse only cycle on their app.
 
Very awkward indeed that there is no separate rinse cycle anymore. They could have easily organised this just like on my Siemens. A separate rinse cycle and the choice of the number of rinses. If you deselect the rinses you only get a spin. It's annoying that Miele didn't make that possible. They could make it available by an update, but not sure if they would ever do that.

For the rest, enjoy the new machine and hang in there.
 
Henene

Do you mind posting some pics of your new washer?

I think the entry-level Miele washer sold in the USA is the one that doesn't have the rinse-only program but the rest of them do. There is also the Express program that gives you a 16-minute wash and 2 rinses, and a spin. If you select light soil the wash time is reduced so without using detergent it would be like having a quick 3 rinse program. Is there a Quick Wash or Express program on your machine?

My machine has the rinse-only program which consists of 2 rinses and a spin. The last rinse takes water through the fabric softener dispenser so you can use that if you want it.

Miele has pushed updates over the internet to my washer and also my Dishwasher so since you have contacted Miele about your error and you have it connected to the internet perhaps they can download a fix to you.
 
Totally forgot

Not the best pics, but space is kinda tight in the bathroom.

Mine has what would be QuickIntense in the US as well as the Express wash.

QuickIntense is only available in 40C or 60C, so no use as a separate rinse.

Express is available in cold, does 2 low level stages with a short interim spin, so that works.

For deeper rinses I use the Shirts cycle on cold with short.

I used the Shirts and QuickPowerWash since yesterday.

Both use an interesting new PowerWash algorithm which is somewhat different.

While Cotton's, Easy Care and Delicates appear to still do the Spin&Spray portion with actual spins, these cycles do one spin up for load sensing, one spin and spray and afterwards just continuous recirculation with tumbling.

Then they drain, fill with slightly more water and heat.

This leaves the washer with much wetter clothes compared to the normal PowerWash procedure.
Further water is significantly closer to the drum - you can hear the water sloshing.

On QuickPowerWash, I suppose that allows for the shorter wash time at 49min for 4kg.
That's still less water to heat up compared to a full bath but heating can be continuous compared to the indirect steam heating of the "old" PowerWash system.
Tradeoff is that it isn't that efficient and really only works on loads no more then half.

My old machine tended to "underperform" in certain scenarios on the Shirts cycle due to the Shirts ending up very dry for the PowerWash sequence.
With some stains to little detergent remained on the clothing for proper cleaning.

Now they are basically dripping wet.

They also changed the pre-ironing stage.

Time and basic sequence is the same, but the tumbles are much shorter, just a couple turns each direction.
Still alternating speed though.

And maybe it was just this specific fabric softener I used, but they were literally flawless.
Had them set to 60C to shift pit stains that yellowed (my work shirts sat unwashed for almost 3 months now) with an extra rinse and 600rpm, and grabbing them the second the washer finished they were 100% crease free, not kidding.

As I said, I really like these machines.

Just that one error is annoying.
Especially considering that could be layed out as a safety concern.

But yeah, that is just on line missing from the programming.
Missing the valve opening command.

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Interesting timing...

Hi Henene4,

I'm really sorry to hear that you're disappointed with your new Miele. Your post came at an interesting time though...last week I took delivery of my Miele WEI865. Overall, I'm really impressed. Build quality, noise levels and wash results are what I've come to expect from Miele and with a 10 year parts and labour warranty included, it was the right time for me to upgrade from my AEG.

However, I've also had an issue with mine. I set it to run an Automatic Plus cycle which starts with the Powerwash sequence (distribution & spray, tumble & spray, spin & spray etc) but I noticed that it had been spinning and spraying continuously for about 20 minutes or more. The time to finish hadn't decreased at all so I paused the machine, allowed it to come to a stop and then pressed the 'Start' button again. The cycle continued without any further issues (as a side note - the wash results were great but then again, I guess they would be if the laundry had been spun through soapy water for such a long time).

At first I wondered if the extended Powerwash was a feature of the Automatic Plus programme but the fact the time to finish froze has convinced me it was either a one-off glitch or a programming issue. I've not yet had a chance to try it again to see what happens.

Like you, I love every other aspect of the machine but as you wisely state, it's a potential safety issue (if I'd set the machine and left the house for the day, would I come back to a machine that had been spinning and spraying for hours, putting my laundry and the motor under immense extended strain?)

I can also appreciate how frustrated you are at them asking you to check whether the tap is open but I'm interested to hear how your further experience of their servicing pans out.

I'm going to try the Automatic Plus cycle again in the coming days and I'll report back whether the same issue happens again.
 
Miele W1 and error codes glitchy programming

Sorry for my negativity but the latest Miele W1s have unreliable electronics with their constant F20 error codes prematurely, glitchy programming. If I was paying a really high price (a grand) for a brand new washing machine I would hate it if the machine failed prematurely/way too early it is just sad and pathetic when that happens.

Also they are really fussy with balancing for a Miele which is bad as considering they are meant to be a top high quality brand they shouldn't care about balancing so the fussy balancing is a massive step downwards for Miele. The older versions did not care about balancing.

There is a video of a Miele W1 randomly draining water like 6 minutes into the cycle for no reason and when you open the door to check the temperature it randomly pumps out for no reason.

I do think the new Mieles perform well as stated above and are okay to good when working except the balancing obviously by watching videos of them. It's just however that they are not for me as I would rather have a reliable washer if I was paying a high price for a machine so instead of getting a Miele washer I would buy a Bosch or Siemens machine as they are far more reliable for the high prices you pay for them.

Conclusion: I recommend Bosch or Siemens if you are paying for high price machines that are like a grand as reliability is important for a machine costing a grand.
Rant over

Janak
 
BSH machines

Stupid runtimes, mediocre durability (BSH uses sealed tubs now as well, FYI) for the same money I'd spend here.
(OK, the Bosch maschine would be 800 not 1000).

So no BSH machines for me.

I can't say my machine is fuzzy with balancing at all, especially compared to some other machines I had.

I've washed all my pillows, blankets and now bedding today.

On my duvet last week it limited the final spin to 1000rpm about.
Otherwise every load so far has spun at full speed.

The reason they drain when the door is open is a rising water level.
When to much water drains out of the clothing the level rises and it drains to prevent flooding.

Rather that then some Elctrolux versions that abort the cycle when that happens.

The draining a couple minutes in is not random at all.

That happens on any PowerWash 2.0 cycle just like it happens before the pre-ironing stage.

The machine first recirculates to dump as much water as possible onto the clothing so as little as possible is drained.
The following drain is there to empty the machine down to a know state.

The following fill for the steaming is based on volume (all PowerWash equipped machines have a flow meter) since the water level is so low the pressure switch can't pick that up.

The glitchy programming is there, yes, and I will see how Miele handles that.
Up to now no manufacturer I encountered did anything about it when I brought it up.

Booked a technician for mid of March, hopefully I'll be abled to be here for that.
Might have to rebook that for a later date if the lockdwon gets extended (I'll go back home to my parents house if I can't start working in March).

But in all honesty Miele is still the best with that.
At least the issues aren't downright dangerous or make certain things unusable.

Again, I can run boilwash cycles as I wish to, just can't have the cooldown selected.

IMO still better then for example:
a) My LG that just made TurboWash with extra rinse unusable
b) Our Panasonic that allowed you to open the door after a boilwash before the cooldown
c) The Samsung I had that often ended up with dry laundry on large loads at the end of the prewash
d) The generation of BSH machines that used the same amount of energy on Cottons 40 and 60 (the normal versions btw., not Eco)
e) The generation of BSH machines that had the same usage for both full and half load on some cycles (no joke, actually happend in a test conducted by our consumer reports equivalent).

F20 is correlated to a sticky heating relay. Not heared of that that often, but hey...

I have heared that electronics are certainly not the same as before.
I myself wouldn't be surprised if they outsourced a lot of stuff.
And they had some quite known issues for the first couple of years (the spring thing, heating issues, drum quality issues etc.).

But so far from my impression the faults are still WAY less common compared to any other brand.

BSH machines have burnt out heaters, electronics faults and bearing issues quite early as well.

So I really like my machine, again, there is a reason I went back to a W1 with PowerWash.

If somebody is looking for a good machine with 1600rpm, it's either Beko for the low end, AEG for the mid-price and Miele for the high price bracket I recomend.
Though I honestly don't see the reason in todays market to spend more then 400€ on a washer except if you go up there to Miele.

Aynthing mid-priced has the same weak points (electronics, bearings in sealed tubs and performance).

It really is just a gamble if you are lucky or not, no matter which brand.
 
PowerWash heating timing

I've been watching some of my lectures back which I did on the bathroom floor on my tablet.
What you do when you get a new washer.

I was washing a small load of T-Shirts and underwear.

Load was pretty much exactly half drum, so 3.5kg maybe, 8lbs or so?

Cycle was Cotton 40C short with extra rinse.

Without PowerWash heating would have been about 15-20min.

These were the timings, starting with the first long heat stage to get the water to steaming temp (80 or so degrees).

Total time: 24:41.90
1, ‎3 ‎44,62
2, ‎0 ‎59,40
3, ‎0 ‎57,10
4, ‎0 ‎56,99
5, ‎0 ‎52,51
6, ‎0 ‎56,99
7, ‎0 ‎50,68
8, ‎0 ‎57,82
9, ‎0 ‎50,09
10, ‎0 ‎59,87
11, ‎0 ‎47,21
12, ‎1 ‎01,58
13, ‎0 ‎45,55
14, ‎0 ‎58,49
15, ‎0 ‎45,76
16, ‎0 ‎58,36
17, ‎0 ‎42,51
18, ‎1 ‎00,67
19, ‎0 ‎42,31
20, ‎1 ‎02,30
21, ‎0 ‎42,02
22, ‎1 ‎03,08
23, ‎0 ‎41,01
24, ‎1 ‎03,02
25, ‎0 ‎21,24
26, ‎0 ‎00,62

That last one is me hitting the wrong button.

The times with heater off go up significantly, as expected.

Heating times go down significantly over the cycles which is kind of surprising to me.
I would have guessed they'd stay pretty much unchanged given that they are probably temperature gated (like 60 heater on, 85 heater off).

I suppose my assumption that the lower temperature gradient wouldn't impact temperature rise during heating was wrong.

The basic thing here is that as the laundry heats up it takes longer and longer for heat to be deposited on the clothing.
Thus the water in the sump cools slower.
(Heat transfer rate is dependent on temperature gradient.)

The load of bedding I ran yesterday was pretty large yet defaulted to PW.

That showed one of things about PW cycles:
Heating is much slower, about half for high temperature cycles.

That load (3 sets of bedding) took a good hour to heat.

There are a few offsets.

Main wash time can be shorter as detergent concentration is higher.

Detergent is better utilised (slower temperature climb utilises enzymes and such better).

Temperature is usually higher then on a full fill cycle, the machine rather overshoots by a few degrees.

Energy usage is still less.

Heater on time is less then 50% during heating overall.
Thus even twice the time to temp is more efficient.

That is also why it is only used up to 60C.

Above that heating times become way longer, should be exponential actually.
 
I much as I love Miele, it seems some recent models are going backwards in their designs, programming not as good as it should be and probably not quite as reliable either, at least my Platinum 6 model is still going perfectly!

As for some models not having a separate rinse programme, that's nothing compared to some recently launched entry-level WT1 washer dryers with some glaring omissions from the features list, see if you can spot them with this UK model, I don't think it's worth paying £1400 for it in my opinion :)

 

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