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westie2

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Just found out today that our old furnace (14 years old) has a crack in heat exchanger. We will have to replace.

Right now we have a gas furnace and gas hot water heater in the same room.

Here are my thoughts. Everything else in our house is electric. Should I go with electric heat pump with the electric backup and also at the same time go with an electric tankless whole house water heater?

Here in our city if the house is total electric (has to be certified by city electric utility) Our electric rates will be for summer months 5/21 to 10/20 $0.74453 KWH and winter months 10/21 to 5/20 $0.041196 per KWH where now it is $0.075466 KWH. Our city buys our power from hydro electric company with coal plants as backup.

If we go this way what brand of tankless water heaters is the best? I have heard that Titan is the best.

Before when we had a total electric home we had Carrier heat pumps with the electric coil bakup in the air units inside.

We do have contract with company for replacement and they recommend Amana and carry this brand.

Our choice also is to have the unit outside and inside or a whole unit outside.

There are considerable rebates onn all the above through the end of this year.

All comments needed.
 
My dad

ran the numbers two years ago and came to this conclusion:
Heat pump (SEER above 16, as high as possible) and gas best for reliability and average cost. Of course, my parents' get down to -40 and lower every winter so you may not be looking at such extremes.

Tankless were too expensive and still are, they went with 40 gallons main water heater (120°) and electric booster just in front of the FL washer and dishwasher (148°).

Has saved them money over the old system. The major players will provide you with a free estimate, running several comparisons on dual-fuel, SEER, etc. Get at least three comprehensive bids, will take about two hours per bid, if they do it right. The contractor I wanted even checked the actual insulation stand in the attic...
 
I am in Northwest Arkansas on the Arkansas/Oklahoma stateline and 2o miles south of Missouri state line in the Ozarks. Our avg lows are in the teens or twenty's. Our losest ever was minus 11 F. We do have fireplace insert for backup heat as wood is cheap here.
 
THINK CAREFULLY!

ELECTRIC HEATING IS PHENOMENALLY EXPENAIVE IN MOST PARTS OF THE COUNTRY. But I have heard in the south gas is the killer, cost wise.

People would KILL to have gas service in most places to avoid electric heating.

I'd say go --if you have to-- heatpump and use gas as the backup/emergency heat. There are little computerized controls that switch back and forth to maximize compfort and lower operating costs.

Let me get back to this thread with cost comparisons.
 
An electric tankless whole-house water heater is a WHOLE LOT OF AMPS perhaps 100+.

If electric is THAT cheap why not put a storage type electric hot water heater inline before the gas one. You'll get the inexpesive heating of electric and the speed of gas should you run out of hot water. Gas hot water heaters (of the storage type) have a recovery time (heat-up time) of HALF that of electrics.

I still say gas is generally less expensive, but with hydro-electric it may be a tie.
 
Just my opinion.

Being you have gas service - I recommend you stay with it .

Have a new gas furnace installed.

Heat pumps can be very troublesome .

If you have electric - Use the electric heat & reguler airconditioning - wintertime operation of a heat pump shortens the life of a compressor not to mention lots of things to go wrong - I hate heat pumps .
 
How much do you trust

your heating contractor?

When we owned the house, we had a heating contractor (family owned company, members of our church, even) whom we trusted totally.

We followed their advice to the letter, and were always comfortable, and paid the least possible in gas.

If you have such a relationship, I would follow their suggestions. If you don't, start with the BBB and Angie's List.

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
~Use the electric heat & regular air-conditioning.

This may work in Texas, but in places that acutally have a real winter, tust me, the cost of resistance electirc heat can be VERY EXPENSIVE, can you say $800 per month+ ?

:-)

We don't do ANYTHING here with electricity if we can avoid it; hugely expensive.
 
HVAC

First, get a series of GOOD estimates. This should take into account the size of your home, the number, types, and sizes types of windows and doors, the height of your ceilings, the area of exterior wall exposure, and about a thousand other little considerations that add up to make all the difference in the world. Also, have your existing ductwork evaluated to see if it is properly sized and placed for your house and new heating system. My parents' house had a furnace and distribution ductwork adequate for the building, but the intake duct was too small. The intake duct was the bottleneck in the system that kept the whole thing from working properly.

As far as brands go, my best experience has been with Trane. Lenox is also very good, but Trane is the best. High quality HVAC equipment isn't cheap, but it is extremely worth the investment since you have to live with it every day. Also, make sure it is installed properly with NO SHORTCUTS. You don't ant to spend a small fortune on a nice furnace to discover it isn't working as it should because of some relatively minor error in installation.

Since you live in the South, summer there is likely a wee bit toasty. Since you will therefore be relying on your air conditioner a lot, you would be wise to get a heat pump. This utilizes your air conditioner in reverse and is quite cost effective. A residential HVAC system consists of 5 major components: the intake ductwork, the output ductwork, the air handler/furnace, the AC/heat pump coils usually in or on the air handler, and the compressor.

You ought to consider a gas air handler/furnace as your backup heat source for when it is too cold to use the heat pump or if the heat pump malfunctions. The advantage of a gas backup heat source is that it will not require running a new 240 volt high amperage circuit. The advantage of a heat pump is it will utilize your air conditioner and run on inexpensive electricity on circuits that already exist.

As equipment gets more energy efficient, its price also goes up. At some point it becomes unlikely that you will save enough money in utility bills over the life of the equipment to compensate for the additional cost of more efficient equipment. THIS BREAK-EVEN POINT IS DIFFERENT FOR EACH AND EVERY APPLICATION!!! If you live in a poorly-insulated, large, and/or drafty house, it is a very good idea to get the most efficient equipment you can afford. If you live in a super-insulated cave, you can go with less expensive, lower efficiency, equipment since it won't be running as much.

The most efficient HVAC system I know of is a geothermal heat pump. Look them up! Their down side is their very VERY high price tag, but they can be dirt cheap to run all year long. Barring that, check the Federal Government's energystar website. If you buy an HVAC system of a certain minimum efficiency, you can be eligible for a tax credit worth 30% of the HVAC system's cost. I would say to DEFINITELY go for at least that level of efficiency, and higher if it's convenient.

AC and Heat Pump efficiency is measured in SEER. I think the lowest you can buy now is 13, the highest is 19. I think you must get at least 16 to get the tax credit. Gas furnaces are measured is % efficiency. You must get at least 95% to get the tax credit.

Some hallmarks of high efficiency HVAC systems that also make them pleasant to live with include: variable speed blowers, variable speed compressors, humidifiers, and a programmable thermostat. Also, look for adjustable dampers in the ductwork so you can balance the system so you can avoid having that one room that's always too hot or too cold.

I would let the water heater stay put and worry about it later. There is a limit on how much money you can get back as a part of that tax credit this year. I would save the water heater for another year and allow the technology to mature and come down in price. Also, I would DEFINATELY keep the water heater gas because your electric service may not have sufficient capacity to run a big electric tankless water heater. A gas tankless water heater, however, would not tax your electrical system at all and could easily handle a high-capacity gas tankless water heater.

That's all I can think of for now, good luck,
Dave
 
Tankless Water Heater

Since the same hall closet has the furnace and hot water heater the hot water heater has to come out before the furnace and is 12 years old. This is why we are wanting to either replace it with tankless or to put back a tank heater. On searching for the tankless came across this brand has anyone heard about this compamy.

http://www.titantankless.com/
 
Water Heater

Have discussed even putting two of the tankless in one for the bathrooms and one in the kitchen utilty room. Right now from the hot water/furnace room it is 40 feet to the kitchen and utility room.
 
Furnace/heat pump

Thanks to Steve and Dave for your suggestions.

We have several HAVAC here in our city and area so lots to choose from. Our home has 2,600 Sq. Ft. (75 ft wide by 35 ft deep) heated and cooled it is a ranch style home built in 1973 and is a raised house (not on a slab). We have our vents in the floor with return air in our hallway ceiling to our bedrooms and close to the furnace closet.

Can go either way with heat pump or just as we are now. We also want to be sure our ductwork is ok and sealed well being this age of home it has the all metal duct. I know it is well insulated and we have been under the house to check for leaks and found none.

Have looked at even getting a total outside heating and cooling heat pump for outside our house.
 
All in one unit.

The all in one units have pros and cons. First, they are pretty big and are also less efficient. On the other hand, they can free up space inside. I would advise against one of them because you will have to have your distribution and intake ductwork reconfigured. Also, this type of machine puts all your eggs in 1 basket, outside and exposed to the weather. I also don't know if they come with gas heaters. I don't believe these units come with variable speed fans, compressors, or humidifiers either.

The condition of your water heater at 12 years old depends on many factors. How much sediment is in the tank, how much internal corrosion is there, how is the anode rod? It could last you another 12 years or 12 days. It's not hard to swap out a water heater if you're at all handy. I might be inclined to pull the water heater, inspect it very carefully, and put it back, Just change the anode rod while it's out and easy to get to. If you do replace it, however, donate the old WH to your local Habitat for Humanity ReStore or someplace similar. You can get a tax credit and someone else gets a very inexpensive water heater.

Good luck,
Dave

There is just no substitute for a job well done.
 
I was hoping to install a geothermal HVAC system in the house I'm currently renovating, but the price was just too high. I got 3 estimates, between $34,000 and $38,000. One company told me if my home was over 4000 sq. ft. it would have made sense, but in a smaller house, it would take like 40 years to make up the difference, and by then it would be time to replace the equipment. One of the reasons for the high cost was that they would have to drill several wells for the loop to go in, as I don't have sufficient open space for the trench type loop due to trees. If you have a pond large and deep enough, the loop can go there and is less expensive. I'm having a high efficiency Armstrong Air (Lennox) heat pump with electric backup installed in about 3 weeks. I don't expect the backup heat to be on much as I'm insulating the house well, and it has all new double pane with argon windows and insulated doors. The old heating system was hydronic (hot water)with an electric boiler. It was on a seperate 150 amp service, and I usually had electric bills of $300+ in Winter. The air cond. was seperate, with air handler in attic (not a good idea, leaked and caused big mold problem). As to water heaters, I just got a regular electric tank type, with recirculation loop. Thought about tankless as the house has new 400 amp service and could accomodate it, but decided not to at this time. Good luck with whatever system you decide on. If you have a pond, check out the geothermal.
 
~Also, I would DEFINITELY keep the water heater gas because your electric service may not have sufficient capacity to run a big electric tankless water heater.

And the gas storage-type works in a blackout.

Whether you go with a gas furnace or a heat-pump, one may want to consider a vented gas-fired gravity-style completely non-electric gas space heater as a supplement, also for blackouts. Perhaps not so critical in your climate, but still a good option for those of us north of Mason-Dixon.

Another thought: if the specialty rate ("discount") for an all-electric house changes (Read: goes through the roof) you'll be in a real pickle.

All it takes is for someone to realize that such disocunt doesn't encourage "green" practices. One also needs to be sure that one can GET such a rate when going all-electric in an older home. The utility may nto allow changes over to such a lower rate, and/or it may not be allowed if one has gas service.

Do your homework!
 
I have one HVAC that will be here today at 1:00 then another tomorrow in the morning and another tomorrow afternoon. I think right now will keep the hot water heater as I drain it every 3 months and works ok right now. The a/c unit outside is only 8 years old and has been a good unit. We do lose power sometimes in the winter due to icing or bad storms so our back up heat is our fireplace insert. Also have a backup generator to run freezers and refridgerator if needed.
 
Efficiency Ratings

I also want quotes on the lowest rating that are now 80% for worst and 95% for the highest rating that would get the 30% rebate from Goverment. I have the people that sell Amana coming today they have the lifetime heat exchanger while others are not as good. Tomorrow the company that has Carrier is coming and also the Rheem in the afternoon. Also we need the install either this week or next due to us going with our 34 year old son and his wife to Little Rock for heart catherter surgery on Nov 23rd for Wright-Parkinson-Wolff problems.
 
I mis spelled what he has. It is wolf-parkinson-white. Been working since 2:00 this morning.
 
Did you get a Trane estimate?

I have been told lots of bad stuff about Carrier's recent products, so I would stick with another brand. Another option is to get a 95% efficiency gas furnace and keep your present AC unit until it dies then replace the AC compressor with a heat pump.

A recent change has been the elimination of R22 refrigerant in new systems. I don't know if the deadline is this year or next, but if R22 is an option, don't get it. Get the replacement (I think it's R410a or R410) Carrier calls it Puron. It is a bit more expensive initially, but in a few years when R22 is eliminated for the repair market, people with that refrigerant will be unable to get their systems charged without expensive modifications or paying through the nose for R22.

While your water heater is out, replace the anode rod. It will likely be easier to get to then than when it is in the closet.

Best of luck,
Dave
 
2 estimates

Have had 3 estimates and will have a 4th tomorrow.

1. Amana 95% eff. gas furnace with lifetime heat exchanger and 3 ton 16 seer compressor with lifetime on the compressor that will get the 1500.00 rebate for 10,900.00

2. Amana 95% eff gas furnace with liftetime heat exchanger and 3 ton 14 seer compressor with lifetime compressor that will get the rebate also for 8844.00.

1 and 2 are the same HVAC

3. Rheem 90% eff gas furnace with 20 year on heat exchanger and 3 tom 13 seer compressor. The furnace will get part rebate the compressor won't but it has 20 on compressor at 3578.00

To me 1 and 2 are out and will be between 3 and 4. Hey 3 isn't quite as efficient but the inital cost to me makes a big difference. Rheem in this area is in almost all new homes as the factory is only about 70 miles away in Ft Smith, AR.

Another thing is timeframe 1 and 2 at least a week 3 only 2 days to get to install.

All compressors are R401
 
Hmm,

I know this is going to get flamed, but when I was looking at these for my folks two years ago, every single, solitary installer, regardless of whether they carried them or not, said "Do not buy Rheem" HVAC.
Ever.

One older man even flat out said: We don't do modern Lenox and we don't do Rheem. The in-warranty repairs hurt our rep.

If you can afford Amana or Trane, go for it. If not, well, ok, money is tight, I get that.
 
Rheem; I had a rheem a few houses back and it was ok. I had one issue with a check valve and it wasn't bad to replace. Rheem is a very value based setup and are made by ruud corp if I'm not mistaken. But befor you decide go look at a Trane estimate. Best thing you'll ever do. And come to think if it my mom has a 18 year old rheem setup that's fine and knock on wood never needed repair through a lot of hot south carolina summers
 
Here is a thought:

When I had my furnace replaced, I actually went through...Home Depot. It was a Trane installer, the price was good, and as he put it - if you don't like us, you can get recourse through Home Depot.

Your mileage may vary.
 
I am in the process of having a new hot water system (prpane fired) with radiant baseboards installed to replace my electric baseboards and woodstove. I had several different heating contractors come out to give me quotes, inspect the house, etc. I was told to avoid Carrier and to go with either Heil (sp.?) or Trane. I ended up going with the Trane contractor. The cost to install was basically the same between all the quotes I received expect for one which was about 1/3 more. I ended up going with the Trane because of reputation, the heating contractor seemed the most knowledgeable and didn't try to sell me something I didn't really need (in my situation he recommended a mid efficiency rather than a high efficiency boiler) and he got the Trane equipment through Home Depot so I was able to get the 'no payment for 1 year' plan as well as a 10 year warranty at no extra charge. The contractor and his helper have been great - show up on time, don't waste time, tidy up as they go, have been accommodating to my schedule and overall have done a great job to make the installation as neat and seamless as possible. It took them 5 days to get the job done, some days working 10 hours. They'll be back today to finish up and to go over the entire system with me. The wall in the basement with the manifold and all the tubing, etc. looks mind boggling. I have the house separated into 5 zones. I most likely will never do any repairs myself should there ever be a problem but I still like to know how the system works. BTW, the system is almost double in cost over what a forced air system would be but unfortunately the way my house is built all the contractors told me it was impossible to install a forced air system.

Gary
 
I have a Trane XV90 two stage in my home, and been very pleased with it. I as well had it though Home Depot with the card 1 year no intrest on the card.

Trane, Carrier, Rheem, and York are in my top 4.
 

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