washerdude
Well-known member
I WAS ON YOUTUBE WHEN THIS VIDEO KEPT SHOWING UP. LOOKS LIKE A SORTA-BETTER WHIRLPOOL WASHER
NEW WHIRLPOOL BELT DRIV WASHERS?!?!?
- Thread starter washerdude
- Start date
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I think it's tongue-in-cheek
<span style="font-size: medium;">That looks like an old washer to me. </span>
<span style="font-size: medium;">That looks like an old washer to me. </span>
mrb627
Well-known member
Not much to say
about that video, but this one popped up as recommended after watching the other...
Malcolm
about that video, but this one popped up as recommended after watching the other...
Malcolm
That's the new Whirlpool belt drive that has been out for 3 years. It's just the latest version with some changes in programming to overcome some consumer complaints. It's a piece of junk unless they have fixed all the problems that were happening with the earlier versions.
Eric
Eric
mrb627
Well-known member
Lid Lock
They need to go back to allowing lid up agitation again. Lock to drain spin!
Malcolm
They need to go back to allowing lid up agitation again. Lock to drain spin!
Malcolm
pierreandreply4
Well-known member
i kind of like that new belt drive whirlpool seems to be a top of the line cleaner
Finally!!
Whirlpool has been getting mountains of complaints over the filling and lid locking, looks like they finally gave in. @ Malcom, I do not believe selling a machine to a consumer with the ability to agitate with the lid open is legal from what appliance techs have told me.
One thing that I would like to see on the new belt drives is the lid lock gone all together. A mechanical tub brake, DC injection breaking motor, or even electro magnets would be a worthwhile addition to the transmission or motor for stopping the tub when the lid is open.
Whirlpool has been getting mountains of complaints over the filling and lid locking, looks like they finally gave in. @ Malcom, I do not believe selling a machine to a consumer with the ability to agitate with the lid open is legal from what appliance techs have told me.
One thing that I would like to see on the new belt drives is the lid lock gone all together. A mechanical tub brake, DC injection breaking motor, or even electro magnets would be a worthwhile addition to the transmission or motor for stopping the tub when the lid is open.
wp-dude22
Well-known member
NO
@ chetlaham the magnets / breakes / adding resistance to motor to reverse the direction it spins to slow down or stop the washer when the lid is open wont work
remember its a belt and belts will break under that stress
using the motor to stop the tub works on the Fisher and Paykel washers / carbrio washers based on that motor since the drum and wash plate are directly connected to the motor nothing to break if the motor uses power to slow itself down
on the belt drive an abrupt stop would mean wear and tear on the belt even if the spin. it has to coast to a stop and it has to lock to spin
whirlpool is on the right track here .... washer should lock when agitation starts for manual water level belt drive washers, but whirlpool have more changes to make such as :
1) they need to remove the delay between when agitation stops and drain begins
2) the change from low speed spin(400rpm) to high speed (700rpm) does not require the was to coast to a stop then ramp to 700rpm it should just move from 400 rpm to the 700rpm in bursts non stop it 400 - 500 - 600 finally 700 rpm in that manner not 400 - coast to stop - ramp up to 700 from a dead stop.
3) the restricted water pressure needs to be corrected for all models even auto load sensing versions full pressure = faster fill and shorter cycle times
** also the Whirlpool ATC automatic temperature control should leave the hot and cold valves open if the washer senses no warm/ hot water entering the hot valve or mixing chamber since its clear that a water heater is not present so you will have full pressure and faster fills especially in regions with less than stellar water pressure. if hot water is sensed entering the hot valve after a while the washer can simply being to cycle hot on cold as needed to get the right temperature.
4) design a silent pump i mean the pump is so noisy especially when the drum is empty and air is bring sucked through i mean silent impeller design ppl
5) the short stroke aka 90 degree action at the start of wash (depending on the model) and end of wash before spin should be used more during the cycles for turn over sake especially in super wash, bulky and heavy cycles there should be a mid cycle switch to that 90 degree short / fast stroke.
6) i think whirlpool could do with a agitator overhaul for sum-thing that moves clothes better with the short and long stroke agitation i thank the cabrio dual action agitator or similar design would work best as it is very low down to the bottom of the tub and has a nice fin shape a modified version of this would look fresh and offer better results / turn over. for the auto load sensing agitator models i think whirlpool should modify the agipeller design a bit and use that since it uses so little water any ways.
7) NOT IMPORTANT BUT WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHIRLPOOL DESIGN A NEW CLASSIC DESIGN FOR ITS REGULAR LOWER END WASHERS THEY MADE CHANGES YES BUT A FEW NEW DESIGN TOUCHES / MECHANICAL IMPROVEMENTS WILL MAKE THE WASHER BETTER IMO
let me know what yall think
@ chetlaham the magnets / breakes / adding resistance to motor to reverse the direction it spins to slow down or stop the washer when the lid is open wont work
remember its a belt and belts will break under that stress
using the motor to stop the tub works on the Fisher and Paykel washers / carbrio washers based on that motor since the drum and wash plate are directly connected to the motor nothing to break if the motor uses power to slow itself down
on the belt drive an abrupt stop would mean wear and tear on the belt even if the spin. it has to coast to a stop and it has to lock to spin
whirlpool is on the right track here .... washer should lock when agitation starts for manual water level belt drive washers, but whirlpool have more changes to make such as :
1) they need to remove the delay between when agitation stops and drain begins
2) the change from low speed spin(400rpm) to high speed (700rpm) does not require the was to coast to a stop then ramp to 700rpm it should just move from 400 rpm to the 700rpm in bursts non stop it 400 - 500 - 600 finally 700 rpm in that manner not 400 - coast to stop - ramp up to 700 from a dead stop.
3) the restricted water pressure needs to be corrected for all models even auto load sensing versions full pressure = faster fill and shorter cycle times
** also the Whirlpool ATC automatic temperature control should leave the hot and cold valves open if the washer senses no warm/ hot water entering the hot valve or mixing chamber since its clear that a water heater is not present so you will have full pressure and faster fills especially in regions with less than stellar water pressure. if hot water is sensed entering the hot valve after a while the washer can simply being to cycle hot on cold as needed to get the right temperature.
4) design a silent pump i mean the pump is so noisy especially when the drum is empty and air is bring sucked through i mean silent impeller design ppl
5) the short stroke aka 90 degree action at the start of wash (depending on the model) and end of wash before spin should be used more during the cycles for turn over sake especially in super wash, bulky and heavy cycles there should be a mid cycle switch to that 90 degree short / fast stroke.
6) i think whirlpool could do with a agitator overhaul for sum-thing that moves clothes better with the short and long stroke agitation i thank the cabrio dual action agitator or similar design would work best as it is very low down to the bottom of the tub and has a nice fin shape a modified version of this would look fresh and offer better results / turn over. for the auto load sensing agitator models i think whirlpool should modify the agipeller design a bit and use that since it uses so little water any ways.
7) NOT IMPORTANT BUT WOULD LIKE TO SEE WHIRLPOOL DESIGN A NEW CLASSIC DESIGN FOR ITS REGULAR LOWER END WASHERS THEY MADE CHANGES YES BUT A FEW NEW DESIGN TOUCHES / MECHANICAL IMPROVEMENTS WILL MAKE THE WASHER BETTER IMO
let me know what yall think
I don't see how mechanical brakes put any excessive stress on the belt. The old Whirlpool belt drives used them, older Maytags used them, GE used them. My 11 year old GE has a mechanical brake and still has the original belt. Whirlpool did have a VMW that utilized a brake band and thus, no lid lock.
wp-dude22
Well-known member
ok interesting true the belt strain would come where using the motor to break in which the voltage causing clockwise rotation is cut and a small voltage in the opposite direction is applied causing the motor to slow down an by extension the tub
to me a break makes no sense extra parts to energize and to fail just so the lid wont lock at your convenience ... most people dont usually need to stop a spin cycle but i guess if the masses want it give it to them
to me a break makes no sense extra parts to energize and to fail just so the lid wont lock at your convenience ... most people dont usually need to stop a spin cycle but i guess if the masses want it give it to them
The requirement for the lid locking or brake is an underwriters laboratory requirement that the basket stop spinning within seconds of the lid opening. I am not exactly sure of the time but I believe it is between 4 and 7 seconds. Without an electronic control only mechanical braking is possible, so most of the older machines have a mechanical brake. The newer machines with inverters can apply brake force but the spin energy is fed back into the controls. Since it can be costly to include the components to absorb this energy most new top load machines use lid locks developed for front loaders and coast to a stop.
The GE Hydrowave models that have been around for several years use electronic motor braking and do not use a lid lock. Whirlpool had to beef up the lid lock on the VMW design as they are designed to break if forced open. The earlier lid lock design was too easy to break which was quickly realized because people have no patience or didn't read the manual and were trying to open the lid before the basket came to a stop and the lid lock lamp went out. Lots of lid lock failures. Once you force it open, it no longer functions and you can't use the washer.
wp-dude22
Well-known member
i agree with aptone1 the cabrio's use the fisher and paykel motor to stop spin by applying current in the opposite direction so essentially the motor is spinning clockwise the voltage changes so the it makes the motor want to turn anti clockwise and that slows that tub past but it still does not meet the 4 to around 10 second stop time required to not need a lid lock hence y cabrio's have a lid lock still ....
but the cabrio's use a direct drive motor no belts so WP could have done that
but in the VMW design the belt will have to beefed up to do the same wp should still test that feature for another revision of the VMW design i have some ideas mechanically for them to try but i rather they come out with a direct drive design with an in house motor and a revise splutch / mode shifter design
but the cabrio's use a direct drive motor no belts so WP could have done that
but in the VMW design the belt will have to beefed up to do the same wp should still test that feature for another revision of the VMW design i have some ideas mechanically for them to try but i rather they come out with a direct drive design with an in house motor and a revise splutch / mode shifter design
I'm not aware of the Cabrio using any type of motor braking. You got any documentation on that? The VMW's use a single phase AC PSC motor. Simply trying to reverse it's direction while running is not a viable braking method. There's a lot more to it than that not to mention that it wastes power.
The cabrio has the ability to do motor brakeing. If you unplug it and spin the basket the power generated will bring up the controls and then the basket will get much more difficult to spin. I do however agree that during normal operation it does not attempt to apply braking force. In fact I believe that if it did the controls would ruined within several seconds.
As for the belts, i am not sure but I believe the belt tension on the ge mentioned above is much higher than on the whirlpool. Also the ge motor is not Driven by AC but by the circuit board that sits on it. Different motors use different schemes but on the whole it does seem that manufacturers believe it is cheaper and easier to lock the lid than to build in a brake. Older units used to have mechanical brakes but current machines have almost twice the basket capacity of those machines. Since kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity^2 a newer machine with twice the capacity and higher spin speeds would need a brake 4 or 5 times the size of the older ones. I don't anyone will be building machines with mechanical brakes anytime soon.
As for the belts, i am not sure but I believe the belt tension on the ge mentioned above is much higher than on the whirlpool. Also the ge motor is not Driven by AC but by the circuit board that sits on it. Different motors use different schemes but on the whole it does seem that manufacturers believe it is cheaper and easier to lock the lid than to build in a brake. Older units used to have mechanical brakes but current machines have almost twice the basket capacity of those machines. Since kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity^2 a newer machine with twice the capacity and higher spin speeds would need a brake 4 or 5 times the size of the older ones. I don't anyone will be building machines with mechanical brakes anytime soon.
Video quality isn't very good but here's an F&P motor-braking from 1,010 RPM to zero.
wp-dude22
Well-known member
yea thats what WP needs to do with the VMW washers its either the F&P apply current to make the motor spin the opposite direction or it cuts power all together causing the motor to go into generator mode which would as u say make the basket harder to turn slowing it down ... in which case the wash temporarily can power its self or store it in a capacitor .... to me it looks like a small voltage in the opposing direction and the voltage increases to slow down the drum idk i have to reread the mechanics of a fisher paykel washer but i want one so bad + the matching topload dryer ..... F&P should borrow dual action agitator design from WP since WP is leasing their motors .... i mean F&P got a better looking washer design from WP we can clearly see the Design language of WP in the new models but they should steal the Dual action agitator too
I love the sound of that F&P stopping. 
Mine does that, too. Takes like eight seconds from 1,200 to zero.
Mine does that, too. Takes like eight seconds from 1,200 to zero.
With proper design and engineering using the motor to provide the braking only makes sense. Mechanically it is a lot simpler so therefore in the long run it should be more reliable, even if the braking torque is being transferred via a belt. The engineering just has to spec parts that are capable of the job.
As an aside, we purchased a new CNC Lathe for our shop about 2 years ago. The spindle is belt driven directly from the motor. There is no gearing or transmission at all in the spindle drive train. The spindle is driven by a multi-phase 24 horsepower that is controlled by a variable frequency electronic inverter drive. The motor and inverter provide all drive and breaking to the spindle which has a speed range of 50-2600 RPM. Just the 14" chuck alone has more inertia then the a fully loaded spin basked on any residential washer. Sure the belts and other parts are heavier but it just shows it can be done!
As an aside, we purchased a new CNC Lathe for our shop about 2 years ago. The spindle is belt driven directly from the motor. There is no gearing or transmission at all in the spindle drive train. The spindle is driven by a multi-phase 24 horsepower that is controlled by a variable frequency electronic inverter drive. The motor and inverter provide all drive and breaking to the spindle which has a speed range of 50-2600 RPM. Just the 14" chuck alone has more inertia then the a fully loaded spin basked on any residential washer. Sure the belts and other parts are heavier but it just shows it can be done!
