newer washers and dryers

[panthera]

That is not true.

I live in a tiny little flat, more like a broom closet.
The nasty old biddies in the garden tear the clothes off the line when anyone younger than 70 dares to hang them out.

I have clients in my flat regularly and, small as it is, it has to look absolutely professional.

I can not do that and have washing hanging out all over the place drying.

There are places where a dryer is unavoidable and I am in one of them for much of the year. Now, in summer, yes, I can take a good book down to the garden and stand guard (literally) over me clothes while they're drying.

Nor do my clothes dry completely "overnight" in our humidity and my building. Sadly.

Basement was once a coal cellar and anything which is hung down there comes up crunchy.

Attic is now full of advanced electronics and storage battery holders for the coming solar-panels.

 

[iheartmaytag]

Toggles,
Most of our electricity comes from Natural gas, Nuclear, and wind. They have tried, unsucessfully, several times to build two new coal plants but our former Gov. now Secretary of Health vetoed the plans four times. (Rightfully so I might add). Her reasoning, again correct, was that only 20% of the energy produced would stay in Kansas, yet 100% of the pollution would remain for us to deal with.

Kansas sets on some of the largest natural gas fields in the mid west, but we still pay higher gas costs. Because of our greedy, wastful Westar Energy Company our electric rates are also high.

Lavamatjon.
I do dry much of my laundry on the line when weather permits. Kansas has high humidity, high winds that makes conditions for outdoor drying almost impossible at times. The dryer is much more convenient in the middle of the night when the kid is puking to run a load and have it dried. My mother used to use the indoor racks, we just got away from them for convenience and space. You are, however, correct we could get along without the dryer if we were forced to. I could also get along without the dishwasher, but don't plan to do that either. Just call me a lazy American.

 

[andrewinorlando]

"I will only disagree with you on the GAS dryer mandate. Never liked them. Turns the clothes yellow, stinks, gas much much expensive in our area than electricity".

I have to compeltely disagree with that statement....I've had a gas dryer for 35 years, and never, never, never had a single issue with its performance. My clothes aren't yellow and they sure as hell don't stink from the gas burner in the machine. Gas dryers are fast, use a more "moist" heat than electric, though they do cost more and contain more moving parts. Even at $1.60 a therm and .12/kwh, it's still somewhat cheaper to operate a gas dryer than an electric one. A 22,000 BTU gas dryer puts out more heat than most electric dryers, which manage about the equivalent of about 19,000 BTUs in their typical configurations.

 

[toggleswitch2]

I rack dry when I can but the neighbors cook with some rather nasty and powerful spices; so clean clothes stink!

Of coure a dryer running on (inadequate) 110v makes it slow as heck with a 2 to 3 hour drying time. Can't use the dryer either when the _____ (name of spice) is wafting up through the floor and walls. The blower will pull it through the machine.

 

[toggleswitch2]

My understanding is a typical U.S. dryer uses 2.5 +/- kwh per load. Don't know what typical gas usage is.

 

[iheartmaytag]

I understand the spices smelling up the place. We used to have neighbors that were Heavy drinkers and smokers. The exhaust coming from their dryer vent smelled like a bar. I can only imagine what the clothes smelled like when they came out of the dryer.

 

[brisnat81]

According to the energy rating sticker on my Miele Condensor drier, it uses 4.5kw/h per load.

It all boils down to what we're used to, in Australia you dont use the dryer unless you have to. We have an indoor (Garage) and outdoor full size clothes line, and if its wet you hang things on the inside one and its dry within 24 hours. I grew up in a house with a clothesline on the verandah and two clothes horses next to the fireplace in the loungeroom. Everyone I knew growing up had at least 1 clothes horse.

All of the modern appliances I've seen in the last 20 years are still getting about a 10 year life span, which isnt bad for the price.

I think the issue comes back to the lack of 240v in the US. My 3 Gallon a load dishwasher always gets everything clean in 90 - 120 mins. Could the problem be, that without a strong heater, when you reduce the amount of water, you're reducing the amount of heat the dishwasher is trying to operate with?

With the washers, I can wash 5kg of clothes in 50L of water and everything always is bright and well rinsed. Each fill is only about 15L so I guess without an internal heater, thats going to go cold, pretty quickly and then the wash quality will drop off. Its fun to use more, but I have to choose between paying for Recycled or Desalinated water, vs dam water at a lower cost.

Toilet Wise, we've had 6-3L (1.5-.9Gal) Dual flush toilets since the late 80's. Short of dropping a stuffed animal down there they never clog and most people in Australia dont own a plunger. We dont need 5gal flushes to get the job done.

Its not hard to fit a 1gal a minute tap aerator on your hand basins and you notice no difference in the operation.

Solar hotwater has been in use for years here and from 2010 in my state it will be illegal to fit an electric storage tank to a new build (Replacements ok) It'll have to be Solar with gas or electric boost, heatpump or Gas.

The lightbulb thing, I dont see the issue with CFL, they work they same, last for years and with the good quality ones, I really cant see any difference side by side with incandesent. They just work, usually using about 1/4 to 1/5 the power. If they only lasted as long as incandescents I might be worried, but its been years since we've had to change a bulb inside or out here. I doubt in the short term that speciality Incandescents and Halogens will be phased out, it'll just be the standard bulbs for which their are a mirriad of options.

All the Changes in Australia have been without a quality of life impact to the User. They work just as well as the old ones, but use less resources and last about the same time. Australians never had a lot of money up until the 80's and 90's so we're all just used to making do and trying to save money.

 

[toggleswitch2]

~How about banning tumble dryers full stop? Have used the tumble dryer only a handful of times this year so far purely in emergency, otherwise opting to dry my laundry on the line or on the clothes horse if the weather is bad. Laundry doesn't shrink, has more "body" to it, towels are still fluffy if shaken out once dry, and things have a more fresher smell.

Can't ban them in NYC. Too many people in too little space. There is literally nowhere to dry laundry outside of a high-rise. It would look like a turd-world refugee nation here (er MORE like a ....), if it were even possible.

As much as line-drying has its benefits, I find that my clothes are wrinkled, and stiff off the rack, so I stick them in the dryer for 10 minutes. They are dried more thoroughly, fluffed, "ironed" and softened.

As far as drying indoors, I am 75% convinced that that adds lint to every surface around....either that, or my cheap stick-vac is pushing nasty things out of its back hole that is should be holding in.

 

[iheartmaytag]

~How about banning tumble dryers full stop?

Bite your tongue!!! Harder. HARDER!!! I SAID HARDER!!!
Now never speak this nonsense again.

 

[toploader1984]

r u crazy?

banning dryers is like banning microwaves, how about banning them?? cause we care so much about using energy, we could care less if food we put into our bodies is cooked with radition.

 

[tolivac]

I go along with get the Gov't out of our laundry rooms!You should be able to get whatever washer and dryer you want.YOU are paying for its water and electric bills!I hate it when the Envio-freaks try to dictate to me what washer or dishwasher to buy-yet some of these folks may pour hundreds of gallons of water on their lawns and gardens and not say anything about it!Oh yes-that LG FL "Titanium" SS whaser dryer set STILL has not sold at Best Buy here-shows the demand for these machin es in my area is very low.If I have to pay over $1000 for a waasher it had better last me for 30yrs or I don't want it at any price.No sense in filling landfills with hi tech plastic and tin.

 

[panthera]

Nothing

but nothing makes me more furious than those people who want me to give up something "for me own good" when what they really want is to force me to bend my neck to their will.

That, I think, is the biggest problem those of us who really are concerned about the state of the environment face - those absolute fascist tyrants in the environmental movement who have no sense of humor, no interest in the effect of their rules and regulations on other people.

And I am among the furthest to the left of the folks around here - I can't imagine how much more strongly those who don't worry about the planet feel when confronted with the Birkenstock sandal wearing, öko-terrorists.

Of course, here in Europe, it is a bit easier to laugh them off - I have often listened to someone in my circle of acquaintances (not friends) raging on about how we all must drink green tea, brewed at precisely 87°C...while chain smoking their Roth-Handel cigarettes. (Roth-Handel make Camels look like child's candy).

Instead of banning this and banning that and making life dull and dreary, we need to focus on more efficient ways to do things.

Like a Porsche 911 or a BrAun KM-3.

Both are masterpieces of efficiency, yet I've never heard anyone feel they were giving anything up to use one.

 

[rapunzel]

'How about banning tumble dryers full stop?'

I think I am going to vomit!

 

[launderess]

240v Power In the United States

Will become standard, or at least more common shortly after (or just before), the Metric system! *LOL*

Have to agree that in many instances 220v/240v power is much more efficient than 120v/110, especially for heating and cooling appliances. Once one goes above 10,000 btu, IIRC all ACs start moving into the 220.

Aside from heating and cooling, motors run on 220v power are more durable and powerful, or so I've been told. Laundromat and other commercial washing machines without heaters still run on 220v power for their motors. This applies to front loaders, obviously.

For large apartment buildings the increased heating power a 220v dishwasher would bring to the picture actually would SAVE water. Instead of running taps to purge the lines of cold water, the thing could be hooked up directly to cold water and work fine. This would save landlords and building owners water and put much if not all the total running cost on the person using the unit.

As for washing machines, Americans still by and large are wedded to chlorine bleach, so uber hot water is not really required, thish the heating power of a 220v washer is lost upon many. Again, Miele the lone hold out saw the writing on the wall and gave up, that tells you what the future of 220v washing machines are in the United States.

L.

 

[tolivac]

If you want 240V in your laundry room,garage,shop,etc-just have an electrican make the run.I know of many freinds that had 240V power outlets put in the garages and workshops-basements typically-to run woodworking power tools-examples-table saw,radial saw,and largest a planer with a 7Hp 240V motor.that required a "stove" outlet-50A.You can run up to 5Hp from a 240V 30A outlet.
for motors 3 ph ones are more "durable" since they have no start windings or start capacitors and start switches.As far as power--say if you have a 1Hp motor on 120V it is the same HP as a similar motor running off 240V-the current draw of the 240V motor will be halved.You can use smaller guage cable.
Again most apartment houses are wired with 3ph 208-120V.The dishwasher heater would still work on 208V-just take a little longer to heat.Only really old apt homes may have 240-120V single phase.This is VERY rare.these would be small buildings.

 

[launderess]

No, It Is Not All That Rare

220v in apartment houses and homes, again just ask Miele USA.

Here in the NYC area there are many,many older homes and multi-family buildings (read apartment houses, condos and co-ops) that not only do not have 220v power but no means to bring it into the power box or even up from the basement.

You have some very old housing stock here, and even some very exclusive areas such as Sutton Place and the Upper Eastside have apartments with fuse boxes. Worse still the power amounts to about 100amps. Of that the fuse box does not have two 220v legs, but one 120v line split into two to serve each side of the box. Depending upon the wiring inside the walls, conduit, risers and into the building, installing 220v power can mean ripping out walls, and opening up the sidewalk (to bring in more power from the street to the building).

NYC code requires all such work be done by a licensed electrican, who must submitt papers and so forth. As with anything else here, such work though "easy" is going to cost dear.

 

[panthera]

240V

In and of itself is wonderful, split-phase-US (and let's not get into that again) or single-phase (Europe, and yes I know it's nominally 230 since nothing brings out the anal-retentive like this discussion).

But the real advantages in durability and reliability come in with three-phase. Many newer washers now "synthesize" three-phase from 230V single-phase, the advantages are so great.

For one, when you have at least three phases available to you, it is merely a matter of hooking the windings up in the right angle and your motor is self starting at high torque. No clumsy centrifugal switches, no secondary "start" wiring.

For another, speed control is easier without major complications.

Yes, I am aware two-phase can also be used, but with considerable limitations.

It's easy to understand American resistance to the metric system. Instead of simply saying "4l" their manufacturers intentionally put them through the "3.91"liter=1 gallon torture to convince them that metric is a nightmare of complications.

It would be easier to switch a 127v system to 230v than the other way round, the wiring would all be over-dimensioned. But the search and find action to make sure every single consumer was converted...yikes! Just think how many transformers are hidden in the average house. My folk's house was built 60 years ago, but it has at least four transformers scattered throughout the walls and ceilings.

 

[tolivac]

the area where I found the 208V wired apt homes was in the Wash DC and Greenville,NC where I live now.NYC is an older city than Greenville,and Wash DC apt buildings were very large or garden apt buildings.You could spot their three ph power from the street-the talltale 3 pole pigs on the pole with the secondary drops going into the building.The high rise buildings had the pad mounted 3ph transformers behind the building.
It sounds like if you are a woodworker in NYC and have to live in an apt you are out of luck.Esp if you have 220V motored tools.the woodworkers I knew lived in regular houses.With these its easier to get the 220-240V in other rooms where you may want it.At my Moms house she had a 220V15A line run to the garage so she could run her Craftsman radial arm saw-the motor could be wired to run from 120V or 220V.It was easier on 220V-no more tripped breakers during heavy cuts.
Yes,for small motors-its easy to get Three phase electronically for them with a VFD-Variable Frequency Drive.This appears on some power tools.VFD works best on three phase motors-VFD's can cause problems with single phase motors.You can imagine why.Yes-three phase is great for motors-just hook the legs to the motor and it should run.If it spins the wrong way-just reverse one of the phases-makes any three phase motor reversable.
Yes I would like small appliances and motors in the US to run from 220V-but the 240-120V single phase infranstructure is just to great now-would be difficult to change.The 220V system makes sense-At the transmitter plant where I work two of the 500Kw/250Kw transmitters use a 400V 3phase LV dist system for LV loads in the transmitter.go from one phase to ground or neutral and you get 220V.Simple!Phase to phase you get 400V.These transmitters have blower and pump motors that run from the 400V 3ph.the eletronic control circuits have primary voltages of 220V.The feeders going into the transmitters are 4160V 3 ph.The 4160 is stepped down to 400V-220V by a 3ph transformer in each transmitter.Its about 150-200Kva capacity.The Primaries for the HV transformers run from the 4160V.And yes Graingers and some other US motor suppliers and builders can provide 380-400V 3ph motors.Of course its 60Hz instead of 50Hz.
Other phase conversion devices are rotary convertors-typically single phase 240V input-220-240V 3 phase out to run your 3 ph motor from the single phase source.Phasemaster is a common brand of these devices.You can also run other 3 ph devices from Phasemasters-found some 3ph broadcast trasnmitters running off them-They work fine-you just have to connect critical single phase deives in the transmitter ot the 240V primary line-avioding the "Wild"leg of the convertor.For the transmitter-filament supplies have to go to the primary legs-3ph blower motors and transformers run fine from the Phasemaster.

 

[panthera]

The wild leg

is what gives up 208v at all.

Gosh, when you think about it, life back before we had electricity available on demand was a pain in the behind.

 

[tolivac]

Normal 208V 3ph supplies are fine-no problems-most broadcast trasnmitters I have worked on run from it.All three of the legs are stable.
If you have to use a phase convertor-the "phase" derived from the convertor may not work with some loads-filament supplies in transmitters.The voltage going to the tube in that case is unstable causing short tube life.Three phase rectifiers and transformers,motors are fine off the convertors.Electricians often called the phase derived from the convertor the "Wild Leg" becuase its voltage can be unstable in some conditions.Motors for the most part don't care.The first mention I saw of Phasemasters was in a VERY old Sears farm catalog I was reading at my Grandfathers house when I was a kid.These machines were common on farms that had single phase feeds but had some small three phase motors to run.The station that had the convertor was a 5KW AM transmitter site where no 3 ph power was available.5kW AM transmitters need 3Ph 208-240V to run from.When the transmitter was running-you heard weird sounds from the convertor as the transmitter was modulated.