Nice overview of the 240v US electrical system

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Well, quite a lot of debate about it, but they forget one thing. The imperial standards are defined by units of the metric system. Besides that, there are a lot of differences between the Imperial standard in the USA and the British standard, which makes those measurements confusing when you are exchanging measures in an international setting.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/72
 
"Rarely does one use any scale of measurement"

Well most European households have a scale. Just like most north American households have cups and spoons. When people see my cups and spoons they often ask what they are. Weighing ingredients is way more precise anyway, a lot of serious bakers on the north American continent purchase a scale for serious baking. Try and weigh a cup of flour several times and every time the outcome will be different.
 
Maybe the grapes are sour?

With the due respect, these seems to me very uninformed opinions (to put it extremely politely) showing an attitude of the sort “I don't know your system, but I am sure that mine is better”.

A few examples:

1) “One cannot measure 200 grams without a scale”
And don't you need some sort of tool to measure “one cup”? Does it make any difference having to buy a scale or a set of measuring cups?

2) “a base unit is gram and its subsequent higher unit is kilogram which is a thousand times in value”
Absolutely wrong. The SI is based on 10, hence there is always a unit which is ten times bigger and another that is ten time smaller: you have the decagram (not much used) and the hectogram; for instance, in Italy sliced ham (Parma ham, just for clarity) and cheese are typically sold by the hectogram while instead fruits and meat are sold by the kilogram (“I need one hecto[gram] of ham and half a kilo[gram] of minced beef”).
And in case you wonder, you also have the decigram (1/10 of a gram) and the centigram (1/100 of a gram) and the milligram (1/1000 of a gram) and many, many other, from the yottagram, which is 10^24 grams (write 1 and then add 24 zeroes) to the yoctogram, which is 1/10^24 of gram.

3) “For those who have grown up studying the metric system and its prefixes may have gotten accustomed by now but those who have no exposure will struggle, at least initially.”
The fact that someone does not know how to use the SI does not mean there is something wrong with the SI. It is also interesting that the same applies to anything, from cooking to differential equations: until you have learned, it is difficult.

4) “Consider what meter is: it is the distance traveled by light in vacuum in a time of 1⁄299,792,458 of a second”
Because all the US customary system units are defined in metric units (one inch is defined as 25.4 mm and one yard is defined as 0.9144 m and so on) the objection does not make any sense other that showing that who wrote that sentence is not qualified to discuss the matter.

And finally:

“Why the metric system might be screwed”
The problem with the kilogram sample is known since years:
“However, due to the inevitable accumulation of contaminants on surfaces, the international prototype is subject to reversible surface contamination that approaches 1 μg per year in mass. For this reason, the CIPM [Comité international des poids et mesures] declared that, pending further research, the reference mass of the international prototype is that immediately after cleaning and washing by a specified method”. (from “Le Système international d’unités” 8e édition 2006, Organisation intergouvernementale de la Convention du Mètre)

“These links mean that if the kilogram is flawed, so are the joule and candela”
And because of point 4) above, also the inch, and the yard, and the pound… If the SI is screwed, the US customary system follows immediately.

But then I also wonder: haven't we seen the same sort of obscurantism before? And am I the only one who smells a certain “sour grapes” attitude?
 
Speaking of easy to calculate around, 1/299,792,458 of a second?

 

Still more convenient than π.  Dam Egyptians.


 

Which brings us back to 50Hz, a base-10 number vs 60, a base-12 number, more readily divisible.  Was it like NTSC/PAL, where the euros didn't want to pay US royalties?  Can you patent Hertz?  Or PAL/SECAM where France didn't want to pay German royalties and made a system that can only be edited every 8th frame.

 

I use metric on my car because that's what it is.  Metric when I'm formulating because that's what labware and molecules are calibrated in.  Metric to microwave maple syrup, because I'm using the "cup" to boil coffeewater.  US imperial for everything else.  And let that be an end to it.  END TO IT.  [Ringo, HELP!]
 
Almost everything about the metric system mention above is more about familiarity, or lack there of, in the USA.

Measuring with an electronic scale is so much more convenient. I can place a bowl on a scale, zero the scale and measure any additional ingredients, including water based liquid without any complications or needing to get scoops or jugs.

My food processor has a built in scales, so all I have to do is hit zero and I can add any extra ingredients very easily.

Inches and feet? Don’t really see what the advantage is? You tend to just think in centimetres: I intuitively know what 1, 5, 10, 50, 100 cm looks like without having to measure anything. A typical door here is exactly 2 meters, I’m about 193cm. Everything else is worked from that.

I know what a kg feels like - it’s a litre of milk. So my intuitive reference is that. Same with smaller amounts like a half kg is a bag of sugar. I would know roughly what 100g, 250g etc feel like without weighing anything.

Then things like temperature - it’s what you’re used to. I’ve no intuitive feel for °F but I could probably tell you it was 23°C and not 25°C today or that a hot shower is just under 40°C.

We are also probably more used to using technical units than Americans (in the USA anyway). You’ll always set washing machines, dishwashers and so on by numerical temp references. Not just warm, hot, cold. Also things like showers incredibly have temperatures set numerically on the dial / knob. So you just become familiar with them.

As for the reference to standards of things being different in different countries. That’s a failure of harmonisation and standardisation. It’s absolutely nothing to do with SI.
Industry standards are set by national bodies or industry bodies and things evolve to a particular set of norms.

That’s precisely why the be EU and European standards bodies spent so much time and effort on harmonisation of standards in Europe since the 1950s. It’s what has made the single market function. Otherwise you would have endless variations of devices and standards that were slightly incompatible with others.

As for PAL, SECAM and NTSC (all dead standards now) - their origins were driven by technical and commercial factors. Colour systems had to be overlaid on previous monochrome systems, which had different signal characteristics, differing numbers of lines, bandwidth, channel spacing, audio subcarriers and so on due to where and when they originated.

NTSC colour also launched quite a bit earlier. European research having been seriously delayed by the economic fallout of WWII.

By the time European TV companies and vendors of broadcast equipment began to look at colour switchover, they also had an opportunity to improve on NTSC, which had flaws, particularly with maintaining hue accuracy. PAL essentially fixed colour accuracy using error checking / cancellation using phase alternating lines, which was a technical solution developed in Germany before WWII.

SECAM’s delay line (memory), or at least something somewhat inspired by it, got incorporated into more advanced PAL decoders later on, which improved PAL colour accuracy further.

Early Sony PAL TVs wouldn’t pay the licence to Telefunken for the PAL technology, so essentially converted PAL to 625 line NTSC internally for the first few years of Sony colour TVs in Europe:

As for the frame rate / field rate - it’s linked to the mains frequency. This is both because it was a handy reference and also because TV cameras and screens had to strobe in compatibility wiring mains powered lighting to avoid visual effects.

Later PAL TVs increased the refresh rate to 100Hz + using digital processing to increase the frame rate.

Then you also had extensions to PAL using digital components to provide PALplus, a widescreen format that lasted until the introduction of digital tv and NICAM stereo, which used a protocol that resembles ISDN somewhat to carry CD quality digital stereo or two language tracks in mono. There was also a competing German Zweikanalton (A2) analogue stereo system which was basically just an FM stereo subcarrier. NICAM was also used with SECAM in France.

Btw SECAM was really never used in production. French TV stations typically shot and produced using PAL and then broadcast in SECAM. Although, studio editing. It was less than ideal for video editing and mixing, which was a major reason it never really extended beyond broadcast. As a broadcast standard SECAM performed quite nicely. It was very colour accurate, but tended to behave differently to PAL in a bad signal. PAL would tend to drop colour. SECAM could sometimes drop one or two colours and you’d get a “SECAM fire” where it could start missing one or more of R G or B. Bear in mind SECAM transmitted the colour information sequentially, using delay lines, PAL and NTSC both combined them. So, if you screw up signals on SECAM you can get colour tv with odd colours, the other two will tend to go into monochrome.

That being said, you don’t typically edit and mix using composite signals anyway: it was usually done with component video, RGB and audio kept separate and then you broadcast in composite like NTSC, PAL or SECAM.

Serious drama production was still shot to film well into the 1980s and 90s until serious digital formats arrived. If you look at say Star Trek TNG, that was all shot to film. Cheaper productions were shot to analogue tape - sitcoms and so on. Analogue, electronic editing and vision mixing tended to remain fairly unsophisticated in TV until non linear, digital production anyway.

Overall, watching PAL or SECAM looked exactly the same and both had higher resolution and colour accuracy than NTSC, but a lower frame rate - which isn’t actually noticeable tbh. A lot of what you’ll see online is people shooting a PAL screen with a camera that sees a strobe because it’s scanning at 30 FPS instead of 25. In reality, PAL or SECAM screens didn’t flicker and later TVs double or even more than double the refresh rate.

France actually had 819 line HD television as it’s monochrome standard after WWII. It looked fantastic but they moved to standard 625 line based systems for practical reasons when colour was introduced. The bandwidth of 819 line SECAM was just too high.
The other addition to European TV was Teletext, a digital information system carried on a hidden line. It basically carried several hundred pages of text and special chars which could be used to build basic graphics. You’d 900 or so numbered pages and you jumped around using either page numbers or 4 colour coded hot link buttons on the remote.

Teletext was developed initially by Philips Electronics’ CAL laboratories and pitched to U.K. tv stations in the early 70s and from there evolved into a EBU adopted standard. There was, of course, a competing French system, which used similar technology to Minitel, but subsequently fell away to the EBU standards.

Teletext lasted from the early 1970s until the end of analogue TV and has modern replacements in digital tv systems.

It was a very successful service and probably one of the first mass market digital platforms for news and information, entertainment etc.

Each TV channel carried its own teletext service, some were very comprehensive magazines. Others were just TV guides and silly stuff, but they were often used to provide extra information to go along side shows - recipes, competitions, sports results etc etc

Page 888 was usually used to do live subtitling / closed captioning. So you just hit text and 888 and that’s how you watched with subtitles on analogue tv.

European TV systems tend to be developed by commercial companies but with the view to creating open standards that are harmonised by the EBU (European Broadcasting Union), famous for the Eurovision.

The current batch of EBU broadcasting standards are known as DVB (Digital Video Broadcasting) which comes in a variety of variants DVB-T (terrestrial) DVB-S (satellite), DVB-C (cable) etc. They evolve and maintain a concept of backwards compatibility and also extensibility. The fact they’re an open set or standards, a bit like the way the GSM family of standards works in the mobile phone world, they have tended to become global standards. So DVB is by far and away the most widespread tv transmission system in the world.

[this post was last edited: 6/28/2020-09:29]
 
arguments against metric

When the arguments used against Metric are so illogical, clumsy and factually wrong, that tends to support metric....

Cup measure is a metric measure: 1 metric cup is 250 ml, or a quarter of a litre. I have a set of metric cup measures in 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 and 1 cup scoops. I also have a set of Sunbeam digital scales and use that when bread making but generally use cup measures otherwise.

Spoon measures vary around the world but are certainly used in cooking in both metric and imperial countries. In Australia, teaspoon = 5 ml, dessert spoon = 10 ml and tablespoon = 20 ml. But to us, a dessert spoon is the biggest for eating, a tablespoon is for serving. I think US tablespoon is 15 ml, maybe our mouths are smaller? ;)

The metre was calculated by dividing the distance from the North pole to the equator by ten million. The later light-related definition came about because the original calculations to work out the one-ten-millionth measure were fractionally wrong, so a metre in use wasn't exactly a metre by definition. So a new definition was created to match the metre in use. The original definition was created in the 1700s so you can understand the maths being a bit out. see the link...

"The foot and the inch were created because they were needed and they seamlessly fit into the yard, because it’s all base 12." ... Yeah but it isn't all base 12. 12 inches in a foot, but only 3 feet in a yard. 1760 yards in a mile. 16 ounces in a pound. 14 pounds in a stone. Good grief, imperial measures require you to keep so much trivia in your head.

"you can make mistakes easier in metric." Why? How? There is no inherent reason why. It's just a matter of what you are used to. If you grow up with one system, the other will be a bit difficult for a while. I am fluent in both, and find metric much easier in cooking and in building. In particular, I find measuring accurate cuts in woodwork much easier to comprehend in millimetres than feet+inches+fractions of an inch.

I remember when I was in the USA in Illinois in 1981/2 and the US was toying with metric back then. There was a road sign on a main road somewhere around Lockport or Joliet that said something like "Metric test site. Speed limits will be displayed in KM/H for the next 50 miles." So mix metric and imperial on one sign?? I remember thinking "Just make the change and get over it."

 
Reply #34

I, apparently, was not clear.

 

My reference was not to SI units. I was referring to variations in how much deviation from a given dimension is permitted by various manufacturers.

 

Indeed, I was trying to express exactly what you said about SI units.

 

It's not the 'fault' of the SI units that some places in the world have bad manufacturing practices.

 

 
 
Teletext

Page 888 still works on the BBC. I use it now and then when someone is hard to understand. The BBC doesn't support the rest of the system anymore. The Dutch public channels still have Teletekst, the latest news is always fresh from the press. Germany has Videotext on ARD, ZDF, NDR, RTL, Sat.1 and perhaps others.

Teletext has been a great source for the latest Covid-19 news.
 
Hi James

that stuff about TV standards was fascinating. I had read about PAL vs NTSC vs SECAM years ago and the article was disparaging about SECAM, they gave a joke acronym for SECAM which I don't remember, I don't speak French but it basically translated as "at least it isn't American."

We paid a small fortune for a Teletext TV when they first came out in Australia. It was a 30 cm / 12 inch Telefunken. It gave us sharemarket prices that were only an hour or so old, a huge advance! Also weather reports. There was a lot of horse racing data on teletext here, but of no interest to me. Teletext was only on one TV network here, channel 7. So primitive from today's perspective but we were very impressed. Our Telefunken was spectacularly unreliable, too. Always off for repair. It was made in Singapore, not sure if it was really a Telefunken product or a piece of generic junk with a Telefunken badge for the Australian market.

teletext has disappeared from Australia now, except that the TAB betting agency uses it for in store horse racing results displays.
 
The emotional heat over these topics fascinates me

Goodness!

 

Anyone who has dealt with both systems knows that the Metric is easy as pie and far better for scaling up and down.

 

As to PAL/SECAM vs. NTSC, let's not forget that NTSC was designed to be backwards compatible to the outrageously expensive and (then) only a few years old TV sets already owned by millions in the US.

 

One big reason PAL/SECAM work better is because they weren't saddled with that demand.

 

Then again, it's awfully easy to be critical when one, oneself, hasn't contributed anything.
 
Hi Panthera

I hope I haven't put in too much "emotional heat." Nice term.

As a kid I just "got" the metric system as soon as it was introduced here. It just clicked in my little brain. I used to collect matchbox covers at the time and Redheads matches even did a series of "Think Metric" matchbox labels. The theme was to try not to think in imperial and then convert, but to try to think in metric.
There is something about the logic of metric that I have always appreciated, perhaps partly because I have never been any good at fractions.

I can't help myself, I have to stick up for metric. It's hard wired in me. ;)
 
Chris,

I feel the same way - I left the US whilst still too young to really understand that 'Metric' was supposed to be hard and ridiculous.

So, learning to use it in Germany was super simple.

 

I still use Metric whenever possible now that I'm back in the US.
 
Never The Same Colour Twice

Yup. Until about '67 that was really true. After that, things got properly synced and the problem improved, a lot.

By the end, I'd say NTSC was every bit as good as PAL at colour rendition.
 
Backwards compatible NTSC?

NTSC was backwards compatible with some previous colour system? Or, you mean black & white / monochrome tv?

PAL and SECAM, like NTSC are colour overlays. They’re sat on top of older monochrome systems. In Ireland and the U.K. for example the underlying monochrome systems was known as System I. That’s why the colour system is PAL I

All of those colour systems are backwards compatible with previous B&W systems. So if you tuned a colour tv into a B&W signal, it saw B&W and worked perfectly and the existing fleet of B&W TVs could watch colour signals in black and white.

There were still B&W broadcasts of some programmes as late as the 1970s and black and white television sets were absolutely still around, even in the 1980s you still had portable TVs that weren’t colour.

At one stage you used to be able to pay for a Black & White or Colour TV licence (the fee that funds public service tv)

A weak PAL signal would drop to B&W.

Weak SECAM signals could go weirder as the colour components would intermittently, and seperatelu drop out or become snowy. So you could get coloured snow or dropout of one or more of the prime colours. The underlying monochrome (luminance) signal was often still decodable but the colour overlay could be screwy. Later SECAM TVs would just cut the colour. Older ones would display a “SECAM fire”
 
NTSC = Never The Same Color (twice).
PAL = People Are Lavender
SÉCAM = le Système Essentiellement au Contraire à l'Ameican Method!

To be to fair, all three were extremely successful and long lived standards and delivered very watchable TV to billions of people for over half a century.

I've worked in the sector and remember the last days of analogue. We sometimes had feeds from multiple countries. You could identify PAL vs NTSC just looking at a monitor. Slightly better resolution on PAL and colours looked more real and sort of colder as a result. NTSC looks somewhat more "orange" like you could see it had a warm tone that was comfortable but not quite accurate. It often made NTSC look a bit jarring when someone cut to a feed from a US source as the image would turn sort of warm and less sharp.

PAL & SECAM are technical different but they look absolutely identical on screen, unless you had a week signal, in which case SECAM behaved differently.

NTSC being oldest, had more glitches notably issues with hue control, which PAL solved and SÉCAM isn't technically susceptible to in the first place. Also European TV settled on 625 lines as opposed to 525. There were a few previous systems, like the very early Marconi 405 line system used in the UK, which was the first electronic TV system and French 819 line systems and at least one other, before that standard 625 line approach was universal.

Brazil managed to merge the two, with PAL colour overlaid on a 525 line US originated baseband luminance system.

You could use NTSC, PAL or SÉCAM to encode colour on any existing B&W system btw.
 
Quite a interesting discussion.  This is one of the things I love about this site, free ranging discussions, no moderator to slap someone down from going off topic.

 

In terms of metric vs. imperial I use a bit of metric and a lot of imperial.  I do a fair amount of baking and convert everything to grams. Quicker, no extra stuff to wash and better granularity, an ounce is just too large, using it gets into fractions, much easier to say 400 grams of sugar  than  14.1 oz. a recipe turns out exactly the same every time.

 

The rest - it's just what you learn.  I know 75 mph on the highway, but could learn that is 120 kph.  I'm comfortable at 68 degrees, but could learn it's 20 degrees Celsius.  At this point I see no value in converting, historically it might have made sense.  With smart tech it's easy to ask Alexa to convert as it is with a smart phone when the need arises. Repair garages are equipped with both sets to tools, a bit of added expense but not much.  I can flip my dash readout to Kph when I go to Canada, so technology has made a radical change for the US moot.

 

When I was younger I'd would have ben all for conversion, now it's why bother....
 

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