mamapinky
Well-known member
Can someone explain why, or am I wrong? I'm curious as to why its in powders but not liquid. Thank you much Cheryl
no sodium carbonate in liquid detergent
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lovethesuds
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However if you go to Household Products Database (after googling products containing sodium carbonate), there is a list of many products including lliquid laundry detergents. You piqued my interest, Cheryl! So off to the internet I went! The percentage seems to be much higher in the powder form I noticed. Hope this helps.
However if you go to Household Products Database (after googling products containing sodium carbonate), there is a list of many products including lliquid laundry detergents. You piqued my interest, Cheryl! So off to the internet I went! The percentage seems to be much higher in the powder form I noticed. Hope this helps.
This is a very good question and I've wondered about it as well.
My guess is that sodium citrate is more compatible with the non-ionic surfactants commonly used in liquid detergents. But I couldn't say why or swear to that.
My guess is that sodium citrate is more compatible with the non-ionic surfactants commonly used in liquid detergents. But I couldn't say why or swear to that.
My best guess is that the high pH of sodium carbonate would destroy the enzymes in a liquid formulation.
If you look up the MSDS of heavy duty liquid detergents which contain enzymes you`ll always find them in a range of around pH 8. (Slightly alkaline)
Those without any enzymes (American brands) are usually pretty caustic at pH 10.
If you look up the MSDS of heavy duty liquid detergents which contain enzymes you`ll always find them in a range of around pH 8. (Slightly alkaline)
Those without any enzymes (American brands) are usually pretty caustic at pH 10.
Sodium Carbonate/Washing Soda
Is used as a builder and water softener in powdered laundry detergents. Washing soda raises the pH of a solution, binds hard water minerals and also converts fats and oils into soap by saponification.
Anionic and non-ionic surfactants are more than capable of dissolving grease and oils (think dishwashing liquid, hair shampoos and any of the other liquid detergents), thus you do not need washing soda. Washing soda also is rather harsh on laundry and can cause hard water mineral deposits that leave things feeling rough. If liquid laundry detergents require some sort of buffering agent to control their pH think you will usually find it is Borax. That substance though base is less so than washing soda.
Being as all this may many of the laundry boosters such as those stain pods by Tide/P&G actually contain washing soda. One reason is to boost the cleaning action of the oxygen bleaching agents, which work best in alkaline conditions. A powdered laundry detergent would normally contain enough washing soda and or other alkaline substances, but if look carefuly at the pod packs they show the outline of a bottle of liquid detergent. Long story short you are putting back some of the alkaline cleaning ability liquid products lack.
Is used as a builder and water softener in powdered laundry detergents. Washing soda raises the pH of a solution, binds hard water minerals and also converts fats and oils into soap by saponification.
Anionic and non-ionic surfactants are more than capable of dissolving grease and oils (think dishwashing liquid, hair shampoos and any of the other liquid detergents), thus you do not need washing soda. Washing soda also is rather harsh on laundry and can cause hard water mineral deposits that leave things feeling rough. If liquid laundry detergents require some sort of buffering agent to control their pH think you will usually find it is Borax. That substance though base is less so than washing soda.
Being as all this may many of the laundry boosters such as those stain pods by Tide/P&G actually contain washing soda. One reason is to boost the cleaning action of the oxygen bleaching agents, which work best in alkaline conditions. A powdered laundry detergent would normally contain enough washing soda and or other alkaline substances, but if look carefuly at the pod packs they show the outline of a bottle of liquid detergent. Long story short you are putting back some of the alkaline cleaning ability liquid products lack.
arbilab
Well-known member
Malfortunately, 'soda' in/of itself combines minerals and oils into bathtub ring which takes some highfangled joojoo to remove/suspend/drain without redepositing. If you add soda to the point you overpower the existing joojoo, you'll wish you hadn't.
Conjecture/hypothesis: This may be the brick wall of liquids; they can't hold any more joojoo and remain liquid. So if we add something to them to get the results we expect from powder, in all-but the most opportune feedwater we can end up with a worse problem than we started.
If we want to add something, add STPP. Cheap, effective, no surprises.
Conjecture/hypothesis: This may be the brick wall of liquids; they can't hold any more joojoo and remain liquid. So if we add something to them to get the results we expect from powder, in all-but the most opportune feedwater we can end up with a worse problem than we started.
If we want to add something, add STPP. Cheap, effective, no surprises.
For examle super cheap Sun liquid (no enzymes) detergent has sodium carbonate in the ingredients listed and has a very high pH of 11.
So yes, liquid detergents with washing soda are out there !
Surfactants work best under alkaline conditions but unfortunately a high pH is also hard on fabrics.
Liquids that contain enzymes (like Tide) on the other hand always seem to max out at pH 8,5 for some reason.
Sun Burst liquid laundry detergent 2x Clean&Fresh:
Water...................................Solvent
Alcohol Ether Sulfate...................Surfactant
SODIUM CARBONATE........................Builder
Sodium Dodecylbenzenesulfonate..........Surfactant
Sodium Hydroxide........................pH Adjuster
Coconut fatty acid salt.................Defoamer
Perfume.................................Perfume
Disodium Distyrylbiphenyl Disulfonate...Brightening Agent
Another example is Purex Mountain Breeze:
Water, Alcohol Ethoxy Sulfate, SODIUM CARBONATE, Linear Alkylbenzene Sulfonate, Sodium Chloride, Alcohol Ethoxylate, Sodium Polyacrylate, Fatty Acids, Disodium Diaminostilbene Disulfonic Acid, Tetrasodium Edta, Methylisothiazolinone, Fragrance, Liquitint Blue.
So yes, liquid detergents with washing soda are out there !
Surfactants work best under alkaline conditions but unfortunately a high pH is also hard on fabrics.
Liquids that contain enzymes (like Tide) on the other hand always seem to max out at pH 8,5 for some reason.
Sun Burst liquid laundry detergent 2x Clean&Fresh:
Water...................................Solvent
Alcohol Ether Sulfate...................Surfactant
SODIUM CARBONATE........................Builder
Sodium Dodecylbenzenesulfonate..........Surfactant
Sodium Hydroxide........................pH Adjuster
Coconut fatty acid salt.................Defoamer
Perfume.................................Perfume
Disodium Distyrylbiphenyl Disulfonate...Brightening Agent
Another example is Purex Mountain Breeze:
Water, Alcohol Ethoxy Sulfate, SODIUM CARBONATE, Linear Alkylbenzene Sulfonate, Sodium Chloride, Alcohol Ethoxylate, Sodium Polyacrylate, Fatty Acids, Disodium Diaminostilbene Disulfonic Acid, Tetrasodium Edta, Methylisothiazolinone, Fragrance, Liquitint Blue.
mamapinky
Well-known member
Thank you everyone for your input here.
Launderess, if I'm reading you correctly the reason there's no washing soda in liquid detergent is because it isn't needed in it? I know washing soda can be harsh on fabrics which is why I have a problem using boosters like Biz and Oxi when I use powdered detergent, just seems like over kill with sodium carb, than the wash requires extra rinses. Is the lack of washing soda in liquids the reason fabrics feel softer with liquid detergent? ?
Jean thank uou for the site on products and sodium carbonate, I glanced at it but will read it all later, but wow 85% sodium carbonate in powder A&H
Stefan, interesting that sodium carbonate is in BOL liquid detergents that don't contain enzymes.
Launderess, if I'm reading you correctly the reason there's no washing soda in liquid detergent is because it isn't needed in it? I know washing soda can be harsh on fabrics which is why I have a problem using boosters like Biz and Oxi when I use powdered detergent, just seems like over kill with sodium carb, than the wash requires extra rinses. Is the lack of washing soda in liquids the reason fabrics feel softer with liquid detergent? ?
Jean thank uou for the site on products and sodium carbonate, I glanced at it but will read it all later, but wow 85% sodium carbonate in powder A&H
Stefan, interesting that sodium carbonate is in BOL liquid detergents that don't contain enzymes.
Proper TOL liquid laundry detergents IMHO do not require washing soda. OTOH if you are going to cheap out on the formula then just as with BOL powders you can use sodium carbonate in various amounts.
ph of 8.5 is the ceiling for
enzymes. Anything above that and the enzymes are rendered ineffective. Thats why it is the highest ph you'll see for a formula. But they are always reengineering newer enzymes so that might change too.
Interesting that too much NaC would clog up a liquid detergent, never knew that one.
enzymes. Anything above that and the enzymes are rendered ineffective. Thats why it is the highest ph you'll see for a formula. But they are always reengineering newer enzymes so that might change too.
Interesting that too much NaC would clog up a liquid detergent, never knew that one.
mamapinky
Well-known member
Jetcone, what about powder detergent that often has a PH of 10, would the enzymes in like say tide with bleach be ineffective due to the high PH or does this just apply to liquids? Thank you.
Both
the solution has to be kept below 8.5 for todays enzymes.
the solution has to be kept below 8.5 for todays enzymes.
mamapinky
Well-known member
I am so confused lol...so than the enzymes in tide with bleach are worthless, someone over on THS says its not the PH that renders enzymes inactive but water temperature. Jetcone you developed a laundry detergent, so I know you know what your talking about. Now please tell me what is the ph of Rosalies?
I think it`s mostly just about product shelf life why enzyme containing liquids don`t go so high on pH.
In a powder the enzymes are protected in two ways from the alkali and bleaches. (Very low water content of powders per se and usually enzymes in powders are protected by some sort of liposome coating these days.)
The data about pH found in MSDS means undiluted for liquids and a 10% solution in water when it comes to powders.
While you`ll probably never reach a 10% solution in your washing machine, I think the pH is still considerably higher when using a powder detergent. I think to remember that alkalis don`t dilute as easily as acids. My conlusion is that enzymes cope well with high pH values in the washing process but wouldn`t be stable in a liquid detergent. But please don`t quote me on this one, it`s speculation only.
In a powder the enzymes are protected in two ways from the alkali and bleaches. (Very low water content of powders per se and usually enzymes in powders are protected by some sort of liposome coating these days.)
The data about pH found in MSDS means undiluted for liquids and a 10% solution in water when it comes to powders.
While you`ll probably never reach a 10% solution in your washing machine, I think the pH is still considerably higher when using a powder detergent. I think to remember that alkalis don`t dilute as easily as acids. My conlusion is that enzymes cope well with high pH values in the washing process but wouldn`t be stable in a liquid detergent. But please don`t quote me on this one, it`s speculation only.
Plenty of powdered American detergents that rely on sodium carbonate as a builder also have enzymes. So I tend to doubt that sodium carbonate is not part of liquids because of a potential enzyme inactivation issue.
Various digestive enzymes would quite well in alkaline conditions, for example, the small intestine. So it would seem to depend upon the enzyme.
Various digestive enzymes would quite well in alkaline conditions, for example, the small intestine. So it would seem to depend upon the enzyme.
Powdered
Biz contains 19% sodium carbonate, last I remember.
Biz contains 19% sodium carbonate, last I remember.
mamapinky
Well-known member
Hi Stan..thank you for the Biz percentage of sodium carbonate. ..over on THS its listed as <40% by weight, and I believe that was taken off the Biz site.I buy Biz for the sodium percarbonate, but have decided to just order it online. I think its only 99% pure now but better for me not to have so much washing soda since I mostly use powders. Take care Stan.....Cheryl
Hi
Mama
19% is what was listed on the MSDS sometime back, however it's possible that 19% equals 40% by weight, since soduim carbonate is heavy when compaired to say soduim percarbonate.
Their are many Biz user here, and can give more info about the enzymes contained, and their performance. And ther may be a liquid Biz as well?
Ordering pure sodium percarbonate is a safe bet, if that's all you need to spike your powdered detergent.
Mama
19% is what was listed on the MSDS sometime back, however it's possible that 19% equals 40% by weight, since soduim carbonate is heavy when compaired to say soduim percarbonate.
Their are many Biz user here, and can give more info about the enzymes contained, and their performance. And ther may be a liquid Biz as well?
Ordering pure sodium percarbonate is a safe bet, if that's all you need to spike your powdered detergent.
