Old cars vs New cars

[johnrk]

Your Cars

I had a '61 Chevy Biscayne wagon in the early 70's in college. It had absolutely no options--but someone had put in an under dash a/c which worked well. And it'd overheat that engine in a heartbeat in traffic because they didn't do anything to beef up the cooling.

My 235cid had manual valves; your PG had hydraulic ones, right? That was a fine engine, I rebuilt mine while in college in my parent's garage. That car was so underpowered, the engine was just screaming at 70mph, had the recirc heater and 1-speed wipers, no radio. I found a third seat in a junkyard and put it in, it was blue and my interior was green but at 17, who cares? Drove it on retreads--do they even sell those any more? Easy to change generator brushes, adjust valves, etc. Like yours, I could see the ground all around the engine...

I remember how upset all of us guys were when that '71 Eldorado came out, bloated and with that comb thing on the side. The '67-70 was such a clean car and this thing looked like a Soviet housewife. The 'King of the Hill' road test that Motor Trend did on that year, matching this against the last year of the Mark III, stated this looked "swollen". I agree. The restyle and getting rid of the damn fender skirts did a lot, and changing the shape of the opera window.

Tell me: on your '67 New Yorker, do you feel like you are sitting 'high' in that car? I remember reading in 'Collectible Automobile' an account of the history of the '69 Imperial with the 'fuselage'styling, and one of the stylists said there that they'd never been happy with that body. I know that the last series of Crown Vics, Lincolns, etc., always left me feeling like I was sitting 'high' when the seat was adjusted right. It's a beautiful car, though, but of course down here where I live it'd have had a/c for sure. So many people have griped about Engel's work at Chrysler, but I think he did a fine job. I just hated those 'fuselage' Mopar cars from '69 onward;; they looked like big turds out of a toilet. Obviously the public agreed, and they had to change them by '72.

Thanks again for sharing your cars!

 

[diesirae7]

That '61 wagon is big! The cars really got so big that the 235 was not enough power, however it is more than enough power for my '55, small car. Correct, all powerglide equipped cars had hydraulic lifters, manual trans cars where solid lifters. The straight 6 was an amazing engine, they ran and ran. Yes I love my generators, I hate when people add alternators, they look terrible and wont charge a dead battery like a generator will. There is a local shop that rebuilds all my original parts if needed, they still can get parts. I do just about all my own mechanical work, have to, labour is so expensive an I find it enjoyable.

So is that what they thought about the redesign of the '71 Eldo?! It is very low and wide, I actually like those "air scoops" on the quarter panel, it was a throw-back to the 50s they did that year, also the interior is very late 50s style. Also the vent louvers in the upper trunk lid. You'll notice I don't have the fender skirts on, they were missing when I bought the car, I did get a pair from my salvage guy in SC, I just haven't painted them to match yet. But many have said it looks better without them on lol. I wish vintage appliance parts were as easy to come by as classic car parts.

Now the "sitting high" part, I don't feel I'm sitting high, its actually just right for me, comfortable car, my first Chrysler product. I really like the 440 cid engine, so much power! and the torsion bar front suspension is really nice for handling and ride, rear leaf springs make a good combination, little body roll while cornering, I also noticed during fast take off, the car "lifts" as one, not just the front end like other cars, the rear lifts with the front. The Eldorado also uses torsion bar front suspension, however, the rear are coil springs, little more flex and bounce. I will say the early 70s styling was sort of odd, the '67 looks great, I like how half the car is rear quarter panel then a door and front fender is the front half, such long cars, very nice car to drive on the highway, really likes to go around 75 and 85 mph and just feels right at that speed. They use 14" wheels, and that's rare today, Coker Tire was my only option, but I have the original tire and size that came with the car new, that's what I wanted.

Added a photo of the engine, I removed and painted the valve covers, makes the rest of it look bad lol, someday I'll paint the whole engine.

 

[johnrk]

Thanks!

A friend of mine at church owns a large independent tire dealership down here and he's said what you're stating: it's getting tough to find tires for all those cars from the late 50's to late 60's in large sizes and 14-inch wheels. I know my parents' beautiful '60 Bonneville 4-door Vista used them. Kudos to Buick for sticking with 15-inchers. I never rode in one of those '67 Chryslers, just repeating what I read. In junior high, the parents of a friend of mine had a '68 Town and Country with every option, including the dual a/c. I loved riding in that car; it was the same color as in the brochure.

You know, by the mid-60's the intermediate GM cars like the Chevelle were so close to the size of your '55, save being lower. When you look at that '55, it's hard to justify any more bulk or room in any dimension for normal, pleasant transportation. Like the Ramblers of a few years later, it made excellent use of the few inches of vertical body height that were eliminated by '58 and '59.

When I was a kid in the 60's my father had a 1949 Dodge Coronet coupe for his 'work' car. He was an engineer who drove about 10 miles daily back and forth to work. Even as a child it was apparent how nice it was to have "chair height" seats, particularly when I'd transfer to my mother's '60 Bonneville where you sat on the floor.

It amuses me how so many people now prefer sitting in SUV's and pickups rather than so low to the ground in contemporary cars. I think those people 'way before us knew something about ergonomics...

 

[diesirae7]

Very true...

Harley Earl ran the styling at GM from the 30s until 1958, the man was genius with styling, the 50s were an amazing time for it, my favourite era indeed. All those cars in the 50s were the "bubble top", could wear your hat and sit at a nice height, then in '58 the order was given from the top, "bubble tops" were out, hence, like you were sitting on the floor in the Pontiac, my cousin has a '60 Cadillac and I know exactly what you are talking about. I have a '54 Cadillac Fleetwood, its the same as sitting inside my '55, also the 2 door cars had a lower roofline than the 4 doors.

One pretty much has to buy tires from Coker now, they are the only supplier of them in all the sizes, thus, pay $230 per tire lol, I still need to do that for the '54 Cadillac, but first I need to assemble the engine, I had to drive to Desert Valley auto for an engine block, mine was cracked, its all been bored and machined and ready for assembly, its been sitting over a year and its on the short list to be done before the end of the year. I bought that car in LA, drove out of CA and its gotten a paint job, mechanicals, but hasn't been driven in over 10 years, its time I think! And it had factory AC, power windows, seat, guidematic (automatic headlight dimmer) vacuum power antenna, pretty good for '54!

My dad just picked up a '49 chevy fastback, all original, 50k miles, working through the brakes now, then fuel system, that is one nice looking car, cant wait to drive it.

 

[johnrk]

Your '54 a/c

You know, I thought that by the time I reached this age that I'd have reached the point in my career, that I could get back to loving the cars I grew up with. I didn't reckon on a spinal infection that would cripple me and leave me even unable to get under a car to change the oil, much less wield a wrench. You're a lucky guy.

I noticed, of course, those scoops for the a/c on your '54. Did it have the two blowers so that you could cool at different rates for different sides of the car? I know it was there by '56 but don't know when it first came out with that.

Does your a/c have the roof vents? Cadillac sedans (the 62 and the 60SP) offered the choice, whereas the hardtops only came with the rear shelf vents. That was supposed to be a fantastic unit, I've read about it in contemporary magazine accounts.

I've seen different accounts and haven't seen one of these in the flesh for Lord knows how many years. Were those tubes going to the roof air glass, or plastic? I know they were plastic on the Lincolns 'cause they discolored so badly. And of course Chrysler Airtemp units before '57 didn't go to roof vents.

Looking in the 1956 Cadillac salesman's book on www.oldcarbrochures.com, it states that air conditioning was available for the 1956 62 convertible and Eldorado convertible. From what it describes, when the top is up the trunk unit just blew out somehow through vents in the top well. Have you ever actually seen a '56 convertible that had that a/c? I haven't seen any other documentation saying whether that was available on the '54 or '55.

Thanks for the information. That's a sweet Chevy--those used to be so common on the road, and like the original Beetles, you just wake up one day and they're all gone...'slip and slide with Powerglide'

 

[diesirae7]

Space age acrylic tubes...

You know quite a bit about the system already! Yes the system is duel side controls, fan speed is variable, one knob controls the drivers side blower, and the other passenger side blower, evaporator section is in the trunk right behind the rear seat back, its basically a commercial type refrigeration unit, large copper evaporator, TXV expansion valve, all copper lines, flare fittings, lines run under the car front to rear. The sedans like the Fleetwood used space age acrylic clear tubes so not to block the view in the rear window sides to channel the air into ductwork in the headliner, then there is a chrome vent over the driver and driver side rear seat, and so on with the passenger side. I pumped some oil in my system, charged it and it blows out ice cold air, it really does work well. Hardtop models used two vents mounted on each side of the rear package shelf, my '56 Sedan de Ville hardtop had that with the AC, still upset I sold that car, why I stopped selling stuff lol, I recently purchased a former grocery store built in 1954, and its going to be the place for all my cars and appliances, I'm sure it will be full in a few years though LOL

 

[johnrk]

early Olds a/c

You know the one that's weird looking? The 1954 Oldsmobile. Probably for air flow reasons, they put the scoops way at the back of the rear fenders. See below.

Did GM/Harrison have a patent on their compressor design? It always seemed to make sense, using that radial design, with it being not only less bulky but also smoother-running than the piston design of its competitors. It always looked funny to me to see V-8's with a huge a/c piston compressor plopped right in front, in between the banks of cylinders.

I had an older cousin who, while I was in junior high in 1967, had a '67 VW Beetle with a York a/c unit added at the dealership. What made it interesting as I learned later, was that the whole thing was behind the rear seat, taking up all of that cavity back there, and blowing from the back. In that little Beetle it worked just great. But made it even more rear-heavy.

 

[vacerator]

'54 Olds A/C compressor;

I don't know if it was designed by Frigidaire division, or Harrison. It is the first generation design. In 1962, a new slimmer axial design came out By Frigidaire. It could be driven by one belt, had lower friction and better cooling efficiency. Harrison made radiators, evaporator and heater cores, condensors. Not sure about the dessicant driers, POA valves and lines.
These were used through 1977 (78 on mid size cars) when the radial compressor came out with a pressure cut off switch.
Look at the A/C compressor on 1977, '78, '79, etc. Ford's, and it looks identical to the Frigidaire axial compressor.

 

[diesirae7]

Compressors..

I'm pretty sure GM had a patent on the design, the '54 compressor is much larger in diameter than the replacement A5 compressor that came out in '55. I also found there are no parts or rebuilding available for the pre A5, mine works though. The filter/dryer is an inline type that is still used today in commercial refrigeration, with flare fittings on copper line, I just took one out of my work van and installed it along the frame. I also injected some POE oil in the system, it will really clean up and re-oil the system better than the old mineral oil.

by 1960 they went to aluminum lines, more "auto air" type fittings, I've worked on a 1960 Cadillac system. The A6 is the one vacerator is talking about, like one of the best designs that lasted for years. Sometimes expansion valve or fixed orfice later on as a metering device.
I bet that VW did have few hundred pounds extra weight added to it!

 

[johnrk]

Air Conditioning

Because of this awful hot and humid climate on the TX Gulf Coast, people down here got into a/c early if they could possibly afford it, both at home and in cars. I was born in 1955; in 1954 my parents bought a Pontiac Star Chief, the first year for them and the last year for the straight eight. What was unusual was that it was available already with factory a/c! Not only that, the system was all under the hood and nothing in the trunk. There's a photo of a '54 with it in the dash below. It was also the first year for power windows, but only in the front. My parents didn't have them, but did have that orange lucite Indian-head hood ornament that lit up at night. In fact, that's the interior that my parents' car had, leather with all those little buttons that my mother said were constantly popping off and she'd be sewing them on. The Star Chief had a trunk 11" longer than the Chieftain and it was just enormous. Photos below aren't their Star Chief, but theirs was exactly that color which was very popular that year.

It still amazes me to see luxury cars in the 60's and later, still with no optional a/c! I know from travels that it gets not only hot in other parts of the country, but humid even when not hot. I'd buy a lower-priced car back then because, like so many down here where I live, the cost of the a/c would just be added automatically on to whatever car I'd buy.

Always seemed strange to me that Ford came out in '56 with built-in dash a/c while the '56 Mercury and Lincoln still had it in the trunk. Then, they came out with that dash unit under the windshield in '57 like Cadillac, only to revert back to the clunky box under the dash! GM did so much better with their a/c installations, as did Rambler, than either Ford or Chrysler. It seems that early 60's Plymouths and Dodges are virtually never seen with optional a/c. . .

 

[diesirae7]

nice pontiac

That is pretty interesting, here in IL its very hot and humid as well, but even my '67 Chrysler does not have AC, but the generation buying those cars back then were from the depression era, and they did not spend more money than they had to, they just preferred to sweat lol. One interesting thing about the AC in my '54 is that its totally independent from the heating system, thus, one could have the heat on when the AC is on, which would be needed if the defrost was used in the summer, one drawback not having conditioned air for defrost. I was looking in my shop over the parts, and could not find my AC compressor to take a photo, I think its in the car trunk, and at a different garage. It will be back soon when the engine is back in the car though.

 

[johnrk]

GM A/C

As I recall, 1963 was the first year that the full sized GM cars had an integrated heat/cooling system where one could have heated, conditioned air. My parents' 1960 Bonneville had completely separate controls for the two. In the '61 Cadillac brochure they present this characteristic as an advantage, where one could have conditioned air out the dash outlets and warm air at the floor level.

In the sixties my father owned a '60 Rambler Classic wagon with stick, O/D and A/C for several years as a 'work' car. It had those vents on the top of the dash and cooled really well. You had to have the little doors open when you had the radio on as the speaker was still in the usual place. Actually the acoustics were improved by that. But the a/c on that car wasn't adjustable for cooling at all, it was on or off. It wasn't until 1962 that Rambler started putting in adjustable thermostats.

I always found the under-dash a/c units for the '64-66 Mustangs very attractive with those four round vents and the chrome front. Again, with the heat down here we even had Corvairs with a/c! A neighbor of ours had a '64, the last year for the first body, with factory a/c. When I was in high school in the late 60's, a female friend had a '65 Corvair 4-door Monza hardtop with both auto and a/c. Talk about a slow car! But it was cool in the summer.

 

[diesirae7]

auto climate control

My cousin has a '64 Cadillac Fleetwood with Automatic climate control, first year for it, I still need to check it over, its not working. It works on vacuum. You've been around some nice cars!

 

[johnrk]

Cadillac vs The Other Two

Cadillac went all in on 'Comfort Control' in '64, then renamed it 'Climate Control'. How? You either bought that or you didn't get a/c. Then they changed it in the series of the last big cars in the 70's so that the compressor only ran part of the time, and actually put a 'vent' setting on it.

But, if you remember, Lincoln didn't get its auto-temp until 1966. However, you could get manual a/c up into the early 70's if you didn't want the auto. I can't remember the exact year, it may have been '71, that they finally just made auto temp standard over the whole line.

And Imperial still had those beautiful Engel-designed body-on-frame Imperials, with the first year of that style in '64. It still had the pushbutton transmission that year but thankfully went back to a round steering wheel and the turn signal on a stalk. They switched over to the Chrysler body with a stretched wheelbase in front of the A-pillar in 1967, but didn't introduce their Auto Temp until 1968. The one thing that Imperial had for so very many years that was unique was the dual a/c. A friend of mine growing up had a father who owned a '66 Imperial Crown Coupe, green with a black vinyl roof and black buckets, and his had the front and the rear a/c. Bob Hope's '67 Crown Coupe has the dual a/c. You'd think that at least the Fleetwood Brougham and Sixty Special could've used it.

I own the Iconografix series book on the history of the Cadillac 75 series. Limos weren't common where I grew up and I found them fascinating, and of course down here they all had the rear a/c with those little scoops. Then, when they came out with the new '75 body in 1966, it got Climate Control in the back, and a few years later had two completely separate systems for the front and the back. But the funny thing is, in 1971 with the last of the big bodies, it had the little air scoops on the back, but by 1972 they were gone! I've never been able to find out why, certainly nothing in the brochures explain. This is really an excellent book if you're a fan of the Series 75.

 

[diesirae7]

auto climate control

Indeed! My cadillacs vary over the decades and I know what you mean! The '64 is a Comfort Control, the '71 has a "vent" setting, the '76 replaced "vent" with "economy". I have some work to do on the '71, not getting full heat mode, have to check some thermistors or calibrate the head end.
I think they decided to remove the make-up air scoops and they integrated a hidden door in the climate control housing, maybe thought it looked more streamlined with out the scoops, I like the scoops though.
I always thought it was interesting that they kept the 1959 and 1960 roofs and vent windows all the way through '64 only on the series 75, its like they had so many left over they decided to use them up on the series 75.

 

[johnrk]

No--

The weird part is that, while they came out with the all new body and perimeter chassis for 1965, the 1965 Fleetwood 75 didn't get it! It continued with the 1959-64 structure. As stated in the excerpt below, the only way you can tell a '64 from a '65 is by the revised three-stripe whitewall tires. It also didn't get the auto temp until 1966. Also, the 1965 Cadillac brochure is the only postwar one that I remember that doesn't have the Series 75 in it. It says something like there's a separate brochure. But it was back with the new 1966 body. As always, best reference for brochures is www.oldcarbrochures.com. See below.

This is like Cadillac did with the Series 75 after the war, sticking with the beautiful old 1942 body until it was replaced in 1950.

The funny part to me that I didn't know until I bought this book was that the 1954-56 Series 75 was still using the old 1950 body! And it's true, if you look closely at the superstructure on the '54 you can see how they cleverly disguised the old body. I'd always just assumed they replaced it because the '54 looked so different from the '53.

And it's so nice to come across a car guy on here who loves his limousines...

 

[diesirae7]

series 75

one of those came up for sale here this summer, was a bit steep on the price so I didn't buy it, but sure wish I had one, I think it was a '64

 

[johnrk]

Another Kennedy Limo

This is an interesting limousine that was used by President Kennedy. However, it was apparently designed for the Ford family use and somehow ended up with the president. Like his original SS-100X, it's unarmored. Interesting that it basically follows the lines of the '61-62 with the curved glass, though it has rear a/c. And just really, really beautiful.

 

[johnrk]

Jackie Kennedy's Lincoln

Another less well-known Kennedy Lincoln from the same era as the SS-100X is this limousine. Mrs. Kennedy traditionally preferred a 1960 Imperial Ghia, but this was constructed around the same time as the SS-100X. It was made from a Continental, but doesn't appear stretched much, if at all. It looks almost as though they did the 3" stretch on it that came in 1964 to the whole line. As you can see in the photos, this sure made for a tight driver's compartment! There was the privacy division added. You can see from the back seat photo that there obviously was trunk a/c and the vents came out in the rear armrests facing the back seat--classy! And, of course, the rear portion of the roof was replaced with a plexiglass one. There's one photo of the car with the privacy cover over the plexiglass roof. As with the SS-100X, there was no armoring on this car. I don't know when it was decommissioned, but it was used extensively during the LBJ administration. There's a photo here of Pope Paul VI in the back seat. There's also a photo of Luci Johnson getting in, in her wedding dress. There's an excellent video on this car with better photography on YouTube. [this post was last edited: 11/22/2017-04:08]

 

[vacerator]

The final presidential

limousine of this style of Lincoln was built for Nixon in 1969 at ASC (American Sunroof) in Southgate Michigan.
ASC also did the padded roof custom Landau Cadillac's that were factory ordered.
It's German born founder Heinz Pretcher suffered with severe depression and hanged himself in his Grosse Ille home in the 90's.