OLD Electric Warming Oven

lightedcontrols · Jan 8, 2014

For Pete's Sake....

Leave that warming oven ALONE! It's fine and original. If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it. Some of these girls are just drama queens that are just full of C R A P which is why I don't post much on here. If you have something, one of these girls are gonna find something WRONG with it. Leave it alone and enjoy using it. Lightedcontrols.

norgeway · Jan 9, 2014

The wiring IS

Asbestos covered, and it is NOT dangerous, LEAVE IT ALONE, the only time asbestos is dangerous is when you start messing with it,as for knob and tube, it will meet code in most places today, and if properly done is as safe or safer than anything else, and I got this information from my Uncle who has been a liscensed electrical contractor since 1958 and his son my Cousin who has been liscensed since the 80s, they both have commercial and residential experience.the secret to knob and tube is ,where splices are made they must be soldered, not just twisted, and like all wiring, not overloaded., the biggest problem according to my uncle is that over time people change fuses from 15 amp to 30 amp or worse put in a penny, and then you have no protection at all.And yes ALL old appliances have asbestos insulation, that includes ranges, and all small heat producers, waffle irons etc, perfectly safe if you dont fool with it.

vintagekitchen · Jan 9, 2014

knob and tube and other old wiring

Having lived in houses with about every sort of wiring known, including bojack jobs that would never pass any sort of code, and properly installed wiring of every variety, including knob and tube, I can say from my experience it's not usually the old wiring that's dangerous, it's the users. When you plug in a heater or air conditioner, and the fuse pops, a sensible person either moves the appliance to another room or another circuit, or calls an electrician or a friend who is handy with tools to run another circuit.

Unfortunately, a great many people are not sensible, and will put a 30 amp fuse in a 10 or 15 amp circuit, so it will carry a heavier load. These old houses often had several rooms on one 10 or 15 amp circuit, because there were so few appliances to plug in at the time. My great grandmothers house had one single bulb ceiling fixture and one outlet per room. 6 rooms, 4 fuses. She also only owned a 13 inch tv, a radio, an ancient refrigerator, a wringer washer, an iron, a toaster, and a hand mixer, and a few desk fans, all quite old, as far as electric appliances went. In newer homes you generally find at least one, often more than one 15 or 20 amp circuit per room, to keep up with all the appliances and electronics in newer homes.

If you use these old circuits as designed, and as rated, they will likely last forever. If you demand they perform like modern wiring, without doing necessary updates, of course things will go wrong.

vintagekitchen · Jan 9, 2014

Speaking of minimal circuits..

In my grandparent house, the ones on my mother's side, 7 rooms, a kitchen, living room, sitting room, bathroom, and 2 bedrooms, all operated on 3 breakers. There was another breaker for the electric stove, and one installed when I was in high school for the water heater they finally had installed, then another for the dryer they finally purchased. There were 2 more bedrooms that were never even wired for electricity at all. My grandfather built the house himself with thw help of his 2 teenage sons in 1983. They knew that their wiring was limited, and made sure not to over strain the system. Older people didn't consider massive amounts of power being available a necessity, and they didn't try to force the wiring to do more than it should.

robinsondm · Jan 9, 2014

Wiring

Thanks for the comments on wiring in the warming oven and my house. I will leave the oven wiring alone and keep using the appliance. FYI, the oven has its own circuit, shared only with the undercounter fridge.

Also FYI, my house wiring is not knob and tube. The original cloth-covered house wiring runs through metal conduit to metal junction boxes. All the fuses are the right values. The overall house was upgraded (long ago) to 150 amps.[this post was last edited: 1/9/2014-08:24]

danemodsandy · Jan 9, 2014

MRX's Comments:

I would like to point out that MRX is from Ireland, where 220v is the norm, rather than the somewhat more benign American 110v. Electrical safety is a somewhat different ball game where he's from. 220 doesn't just shock if you have a problem - it welds your arse to the wall.

Our frames of reference can be different, and sometimes it's for a good reason. That does not mean that anyone is right or wrong here; we just know what we know because of the reality we've always contended with.

robinsondm · Jan 9, 2014

Well, Sandy, I view the USA's 120V/60Hz standard as plenty dangerous and potentially lethal, even if slightly "less deadly" than Ireland's 230V/50Hz. I realize there's also room for some disagreement on safety practices.

Mostly, I'm disappointed that mrx took the discussion so personally, and decided to leave the forum altogether!

norgeway · Jan 9, 2014

Speaking as one who has

Done maintenence work...220 hurts worse than 110!!! and 277 on a lighting circuit really will make you jump!!!

robinsondm · Jan 9, 2014

Ouch

Hans,

I will take your word for it, and not conduct my own experiments on voltage vs. pain levels!

Dean

norgeway · Jan 9, 2014

LOL!!

It comes with working on stuff that you cant turn off!! the worst as far as pain is concerned is an oil burner ignition transformer, very very low amperage, but 10,000 volts, I was laying under a house in a crawl space once servicing an ancient furnace , and being the dummy I was, did not pull the main switch, when the thermostat called for heat, of course it turned on as I was cleaning the terminals.zzzap! What hurt worse was I of course jumped..and hit my head on a floor joist!You learn the hard way.

tolivac · Jan 10, 2014

More people are electrocuted from 120V than any other voltage-BE CAREFUL!!!120V IS LETHAL!!!

robinsondm · Jan 11, 2014

Found something close!

My wife did some internet sleuthing and found a 1937 catalog called "Whitehead Work Saving Kitchens." It contains images of 2 very similar (but not quite identical) warming ovens. See the picture below. Note the similarity of the control knob (called a "three-heat switch") and indicator light, and the heating elements behind the guard -- just like mine -- on the left picture. The description even says 600-watt, and my oven has 2 300W elements. The catches at top and bottom, and the rubber stops, also look the same. And the oven on the right is called a "plate warmer," just as folks above deduced was the intended use for my oven.

While the shelving configurations are different, and my oven lacks the decorative slots on either side of the control, this is obviously very close to what I have. It doesn't tell me exactly who made and/or sold my oven -- Whitehead, H.E. Trent, etc.? -- but it seems the same manufacturer made both my oven and the Whitehead catalog offerings of 1937.

[this post was last edited: 1/11/2014-17:52]

supersuds · Jan 11, 2014

Neat find, Dean. Whitehead advertised sinks and cabinets made of Monel metal back then. That means that in all likelihood the shiny metal in your plate warmer is also Monel (an alloy of two thirds nickel and one third copper) rather than stainless steel.

jetcone · Jan 15, 2014

Dean thats not cloth wiring Hans is right on

That is asbestos fiber and as long as you don't disturb it it will last a long time and work safely. That was the best insulation at the time for heating equipment. That is white american asbestos not european brown. As such my father, a material scientist at GE, felt the concerns about it were overblown as the brown variety has a hook structure to the crystal that hooks into lungs while the white american has straight crystal structure which does not hook.

I'd leave it alone and enjoy your appliance.

My House had Knob n Tubing and a lot of them still do here in New England, its considered very safe BUT and this is a BIG BUT it is not polarized like today's systems so DONT ever plug a computer into an KnT circuit, I fried one once which was very expensive.

Nice area I know it well I have good friends that live on Wendell and you may remember their house was used in the filming of "Beyond The Pines"?

davey7 · Jan 15, 2014

My dad said the same thing about asbestos fibers and their danger. I think we have gotten a touch paranoid about asbestos and lead as a whole (not say there aren't risks, just overstated risks).

circlew · Jan 15, 2014

Fused neutral

Another thing about buildings with knob & tube wiring is that previous to 1928 the grounded (neutral) side may be fused in addition to the hot side. Old fuse boxes (or fuseholders just mounted to a surface) may still be present and connected even if newer service entrance or remote panelboards have been installed.

Our local historical society museum (built 1890's) has such wiring feeding the ceiling lights and some older receptacles. The service panel is circuit breakers and located outside by the meter. There is another breaker panel in the basement (fed by a 100A double pole breaker in the outside panel), with a 30A double pole breaker feeding to an old fuse box in the second floor hall. This is so old that it is not in a metal enclosure, but just porcelain fuseholders mounted to a board, covered with a wooden door. Each of the four 120 volt circuits has two fuses - one for each wire. According to an electrician that went into the attic, there are more fuseholders without enclosures up there (for second floor lights). Such an arrangement was outlawed with the 1928 NEC, but many old buildings still have old wiring connected in this way.

The problem with such wiring is that the fuse protecting the grounded wire may blow without the one on the hot side blowing. This means that while nothing connected to that circuit will function, the hot side is still live. Anyone touching the hot side will receive a shock if they are touching anything grounded. This is obviously quite dangerous. The electrician jumpered the grounded conductors around the fuseholders on the grounded side in the hallway panel, to avoid this issue. However, he didn't fix the ones in the attic as the museum manager didn't want to spend any more to do so.

Anyone living in an old house built previous to the code change should check for such a situation.

robinsondm · Jan 15, 2014

Spooky



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Tom (CircleW): You appear to be psychic, and it’s scary. <span style="font-family: Wingdings; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings;">

Seriously, I was getting ready to reply to the posts before yours – mentioning that I won’t disturb the asbestos, etc. But I was also thinking to myself, “I’d better not tell them about the fused neutrals!” I started Googling “fused neutrals” to get the latest thinking on this situation and how to remedy it. I then returned to the forum and saw your post – positively spooky!

Anyway, near the back entrance to my house is the most beautiful electrical panel you’ve probably ever seen – gorgeous copper conductors and knife switches, and a built-in light bulb – but with fused neutrals. It was likely the original panel for the house, and just as you said, various later upgrades never touched this box.

I will look into getting this situation fixed. Because the panel is so beautiful, I’d prefer to remove (and save) the whole thing, and replace it with something more modern -- rather than having an electrician add jumpers around the fuses. But, I’ll do what I have to.

In the meantime, have you considered making some extra income as a psychic? <span style="font-family: Wingdings; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings;">

<span style="font-family: Wingdings; mso-ascii-font-family: Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family: Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Wingdings;">Dean

davey7 · Jan 16, 2014

Knob & tube

As I understand it, the biggest problem, or hazard, with knob & tube wiring is when people unknowingly add insulation to cavities where it is located, as the air space both insulates it and disperses any heat, can't remember, however, where I read this.

iheartmaytag · Jan 16, 2014

All's I know about Knob and Tube is

American Family Insurance refused to insure the house as long as it was in place.
and a house with Knob and Tube are not FHA insurable for loans

They cite:
Fire hazard due to insulation, or other contact with wire or rodents.
Shock or electrocution hazard as mentioned above.
Lack of ground and ground fault interrupters.

Since my house was built in 1935 they also stated that electrical requirements for a home have vastly changed and the older style wiring is not equipped to handle the electrical loads.

I also felt safer having it replaced.

chachp · Jan 16, 2014

I watch too much HGTV

..and these programs where it would appear the wiring has been updated because what is visible is new but then they tear down the wall and discover what is hidden is all Knob and Tube. That would be scary to think you thought you were protected only to find out you were not.

OLD Electric Warming Oven

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