"Older" Front Loaders and Regular Detergent

[launderess]

Yesterday while down at the shops, spied a damaged small box of Tide With Bleach, original scent. Asked the nice manager if one could have it at good discount due to said damage, and he agreed. So home the box came.

Now as many of you know my new "daily driver" washing machine is a Miele W1070, circa 1980's to early 1990's. This washer uses about 5 gallons of wash water in "Cottons", normal cycle with 5 rinses including one deep final rinse, all of which use the same 5 gallons or probably a tad more water. This Miele only spins one 30 sec pluse spin between rinses 3 and 4, and a short spin between rinses 4 and 5. Oh, and the washer will fill with cold water towards the final part of the cotton cycle to "cool" the suds. Do not know how much water enters the tub, but the valve is open for along time as one can hear water entering the machine.

Back to the topic of detergents.

Have noticed that even when using "regular" detergents, in reduced amounts (max 1 tablespoon )results are fine in terms of cleaning and rinsing. Even with the occasional over dosage of detergent, the rinse water is quite clear after the 5th rinse.

Used 1T of the Tide powder along with 1/2T of STPP, and a bit of oxygen bleach on a full 11lb load of towels, washcloths, one terry cloth mattress cover and assorted small items, and the final results were grand. Everything came out quite clean, with no scent and no over sudsing.

So am wondering if older front loaders were designed to cope better with detergents slightly higher sudsing than today.

My Miele has a soild door, so it is not always easy to tell if there is over sudsing. Because of this was actually going to break down and buy some Persil. Normally can "hear" if the washer is over sudsing by the fact the laundry sounds "muffled" as it's tumbling. Also the pump makes sounds as if it is being engaged/air is entering. While have never had any major over sudsing problems that caused foam to eject from the dispenser, still want to avoid any problems.

I'm thinking because this unit uses much more water than modern front loaders, even other Mieles, and has 5 rinses, again using lots of water, that detergent residue is properly rinsed away. The design of not spinning between the frist two rinses helps dilute detergent/kick down foaming thus preventing "suds lock".

L.

 

[brisnat81]

It seems to depend

On how big/dirty the load is and the temp.

I find on my 70's W423, that if I put a tablespoon of HE detergent in, set it for Cottons, Lightly Soiled and 95degC for a cleaning cycle with nothing in there I get soap comming out of every orifice.

If I put filthy towels in there on 95C with 2 capfulls of a liquid detergent I get few bubbles if any.

The new Miele, when it detects suds, slows down the tumbling which reduces the suds and it carries on fine.

I recognize that I havent tried with a low dose of a Non HE detergent, however based on what I've seen with the HE stuff, I wouldnt expect it to end up with less suds.

The reason my old Miele doesnt seem to spin between the first 2 rinses, is simply that it just cant. I've tried advancing it to a spin directly after the wash, and it doesnt get up to speed, the motor struggles and regarless of the suds level in the wash, thick foam starts to ooze out between the boot and the drum. Depending on the detergent I use, I find that the rinsing performance of the old Miele struggles to rinse at times regardless of the amount of water used. You get to the final rinse, it adds the softener and then there is still foam left.

To answer your original question, I dont know that newer machines rinse better than the old ones or the older ones better than the newer, however with the suds sensing logic, I never end up with really thick foam, like I do on the Old miele, regardless of the water level used. In my mind the newer machines handle thick suds better.

Nathan

 

[launderess]

Well my test load was done at 140F, so no problems due to heat there.

Having owned a frontloader that did spin after the first rinse, one must remember just because one cannot "see" suds, does not mean there will not be foam once the spin commences and all the froth is forced from the laundry. Towels and anything made from terry cloth seems to be a major culprit of this action.

Don't know about your "HE" detergents in OZ, but Tide HE sold in the United States is VERY sudsy if one does not watch the dosage. My first and only contact with that product occured after installing our first front loader, and using the sample packet which same with said machine. Idiot that I am, used the recommeded dosage (IIRC was half or even the entire packet), only to have suds foaming EVERYWHERE. After about 8 or 9 cycles of trying to "rinse" the foam out, finally took the laundry out of the machine and added some oil (to kill the foaming), and ran the machine empty for one or two cycles to get all the foam out. The laundry had to be rinsed a tub to remove all the suds/detergent.

The tumbling on my Miele 1070 seems pretty "slow" already on "cottons", far less thrashing about than with other units I've used/seen.

Can get my machine to go to "spin" after a wash, by turning off the unit, and resetting the cycle, and moving the dial to the correct point. However if there is still lots of water/foam in the wash, the unit will slow down the spinning (as all front loaders seem to do), to protect the pump. Once a majority of the water is gone, the washer gradually ramps up to speed. IIRC on my unit, if one wants "spin only", one does not set the unit directly to final spin, but rather to the "Graduated Spin" cycle. The unit will complete the series of graduated spins first, then go into the final spin. Have not used the "spin only" feature, so only working from memory of what is in the owner's manual.

L.

 

[brisnat81]

Most of our HE detergents can still over suds if you use too much, but they generally dont create much foam. When they oversuds in a FL they're usually very weak and watery. I've found using HE in a TL machine seems to create thick suds, but in a FL its not a problem.

I'm pretty sure my old Miele has a single speed wash motor and it just alters the length of the tumbles and pauses depending on whats being washed. Woolens might only do 1/4 of a revolution so it does acheive the cradle wash effect that the newer machines does. The tumble speed on cottons on mine is about 10 secs in one direction, pause reverse and 10 seconds again. To watch it on a small load it seems quite vigorous. However I washed a woolen jumper/cat bed in there on cottons and it came out at the end of the cycle in its original shape and size.

If I try and skip rinses 1 and 2 and 3 to get the first spin there, it briefly tries and then gives up and goes into the 4th rinse. I've reset it to run in the final spin stage, and it just never gets up to speed and just keeps struggling. I've given up trying and now and just let it do its thing.

When I do spin only, I can either select Graduated or standard spin. I just reset the dial to the end of the 5th rinse, let it pump and then depending on whether its a graduated spin or not it just does it thing to completion.

 

[sudsmaster]

When I wash my shop coat, along with other colors like jeans and work shirts, I find that I can use 3/4 cup of Sears HE/STPP mixed detergent and there is no sudsing. Normally that amound would spell serious oversuding.

I have deduced the reason is that the shop coat (and the lower part of the jeans) is usually soiled with an aqueous lubricant/coolant that is used in the CNC machines I run. I further theorize that the lubricant (which is added as a concentrate to water) has anti-foaming additives, and these additives, along with the high oil content, are suppressing suds.

Oh, and I find I must use that much detergent to get the load clean. That lubricant is very tenacious. But with the Neptune 7500's four rinses, it all is gone by the final spin.

 

[launderess]

Find that laundering anything with some sort of fat/oil residue will cut down sudsing; this includes wash cloths with bar soap residue. We use pure soap bars (olive oil French soap, or "Ivory") and those loads make much less suds no matter what type of detergent. By the same token, vintage Fels Naptha soap, added to wash, also cuts suds.

Sudsmaster:

You need to try some of this Ecolab commercial detergent I have. Called "Soild Super Star" it is VERY concentrated, and though designed for automatic dispensing, I measure/weigh it out and for use in our machine. Only takes about 2 grammes for 11 pounds. SSS is mainly STPP,Washing Soda, and Surfactant, but boy does it clean well. Even the oilest dirt comes right out even with small dosages.

L.

 

[frigilux]

Launderess-- Do you have mechanically softened water? I find softened water really retains suds whether I'm using Tide CW or one of the HE liquids I still have in the cupboard. If I didn't put a small dose of softener in the final rinse, there would still be a fair amount of suds present.

 

[launderess]

No, we don't have "softened" water, but NYC water is pretty soft to start.

IIRC Culligan, Rain Soft and other makers of mechanical water softeners sell detergents designed work well with such softened water. Check eBay, as those products appear there often, often by the case for a very low price.

There was a woman over on THS complaining about how she could not get a "clean" sudless rinse from any detergent, regardless of the amount. Turns out she too had mechanically softened water.

L.

 

[pulsatron]

HE Detergents and suds

Hi Laundress,
I experimented with a an HE detergent a while back called Fabmatic which is fairly new to Oz.I used it in the old Bosch F.L.(before it died),and there were no noticeable suds this was with 3/4 scoop.
However the next washday I used it in the Twin Tub with the same dose as both machines held a 6kg load and there were suds everywhere!!! I really don't know what caused it, the only thing I can think of is perhaps the Twin Tub with it's more vigorous washing action caused it to froth more.
The thing is though these producs are supposed to produce less suds, unledd thye still do contain some frothing agents just lessthan regular detergent.
Hope this is of some help to you.
Cheers.
Steve.

 

[gizmo]

In the instructions for the Hoover Keymatic there was no reference to using low suds detergent. It said the machine could be used with soap powder or "soapless detergent" with excellent results.

Chris

 

[bajaespuma]

Dear Laundress,

According to Consumer's Reports and the people at Redox brands (the new proprietors of the "Oxydol" brand and "Biz") the problem with sudsing is temperature. Apparently all detergents begin as no-sudsing formulas and then product intended for home use get "suds producers" added. I've used some institutional samples of "ALL" and some "Eco-lab" products and they're amazing...they just don't produce suds (like automatic dishwasher detergents). I'm trying to procure some, but Eco-Lab is very cagy about who it sells to. And institutional ALL only comes in 50 lb. bags.

Any detergent that has had some degree of "sudsing chemicals" added will produce more suds at higher temperatures. I've found on my LG the only time I have problems with using Tide with Bleach Powder, is on the high heat cycles.

I think that the HE detergents are a scam ( Redox practically says as much). When you think about it --it makes perfect business sense. In a country that is slowly being converted over to FL from TL machines, the Tide being sold by Proctor and Gamble would last a consumer using an FL over four times as long as one using a TL. I'm sure they've calculated their losses years ago and made a deal with the manufacturers to "recommend" HE (which, if you read fine print means, "detergents specially formulated for use in new High Efficiency Washers") detergents, which are basically nothing more than low-sudsing formulas that have been diluted, so the consumer who is used to and comfortable measuring one cup of detergent per load can go on using that volume of powder (or liquid) and feel that they're adding "enough". LE would be a more honest label for these products.

One of the reasons I use Tide with Bleach powder is that it smells exactly the way old Dash did. I think they just repackaged the formula. I'm not sure about this because it's been many more years since SALVO was on the market but I'm betting Tide HE powder is just a repackaging of Salvo tablets all ground up.

Anyway, Redox brands recommend using their Oxydol powder in FL machines by simply using only 1/6th the normal dosage. I try to buy Oxydol whenever I can but it is disappearing from local shelves.

I'm still looking for a definitive answer on whether it would be OK to use Automatic Dishwasher detergent in my FL machine. They're formulated to produce no suds at high temperatures and, bless them, they still have some phosphates in them. Someone I spoke to suggested that they might contain some abrasive component in them designed to scour dishes but potentially harmful to textiles. ???

Someone told me that the Sears brand HE powder was good--anyone know?

 

[launderess]

Sears Detergents:

Many on THS give Sears HE detergents good reviews. Consumer reports rated several versions, including the HE as "very good" to "ok" in latest rankings. For $15.99 or so for those huge tubs, one cannot seem to to wrong.

Ecolab:

Ecolab like many commercial laundry/cleaning chemical suppliers want nothing to do with the domestic market. Ecolab sales people won't even return phone calls to domestic users, and the consumer help line is set up for commercial users only. They merely look up the business in their database, and have the local rep return the call.

Being as all his palaver may, have a case of Ecolab "Soild Super Star" detergent (don't tell me anyone is surprised). Four canisters meant to be dispensed in Ecolab's patented dispensing system. As there are no dosage directions on the canisters,case, nor will Ecolab pony up, had to do some seluthing. Found what I needed to know by using Google, and yes, the detergent when dosed correctly makes NO suds. Cleans quite well, but is too scented for my tastes, so may mark up and sell the stuff on. Only bought it because the detergent contains STPP (really is nothing more than STPP, washing soda and surfactant).

Redox Brands:

Are NOT my favourite people. The took a prefect product "Biz" which was one of the few activated oxygen bleaches/enzyme pre-soaks and totally ruined it with a ghastly fruity scent, and tons of filler. They speak of sudsing? The new "Biz" is very highly sudsing, in fact threw the box away as even the smallest dose caused vast frothing, and was not easily rinsed.

By the way, Redox Brands was formed by former P&G executives who are on a buying spree for brands P&G was/is looking to unload as that company reorganises itself.

A local hardware store has some coin vend sizes of the old Biz, and have purchased 8 or so. Even though the price is dear, prolly will take the rest as well since the old fromula Biz is not easily found. Had one known P&G was going to drop "Biz", would have stocked up at K-Mart.

Low Sudsing Detergents:

Years ago Tide, and many other detergents were all suitable for use in front loaders, twin tubs, wringer, and top loading washing machines. Indeed dosage instructions were given for all manner and sort of washing machines. Guess as wringers, twin tubs et the rest left the scene, detergents were redesigned for top loaders.

Saw commercial "All" detergent on a website last night, not as pricey as one thought, and is labled "low suds".

L.

 

[westtexman]

Tide w/ Bleach

I have found that Tide w/ Bleach works very well in my front-loader. I don't know why, but for for some reason it doesn't seem to suds up nearly as much as the other Tide products (even Tide HE).

It was my detergent of choice in my old FriGEmore, but I have moved on to others since acquiring the Danby. I am certainly not in need of more detergent at this point, but it's fun to experiment.

Tex

 

[pulsatron]

H.E. detergents in Oz.

Hi Laundress,
Here in Oz, H.E. detergents are mostly all called whatever-matic,it seems the word matic is automatically associated with H.E. soaps.
Funny thing is you know many,many years ago,Omomatic was the only soap powder you could buy if you owned a F.L., I would suggest in those days that could be a reason why F.L.'s were not that popular,you could only choose 1 detergent which was recommended for them in fact a powerful selling point for Omomatic was it's slogan which was ""Only Omomatic is recommended by ALL the leading makers of front load washers",pretty convincing huh?.
I wonder though just say if you owned a F.L. in those days and had an allergy to Omomatic, you would be in a pretty pickle I guess the solution was to buy a standard soap powder and use a little less than the suggested dose(Which I did for a while on my old F.L.),with no apparent side effects,and no it was not the soap powder which killed the Bosch off.
Now days though you do have a bigger selection to choose from here are the ones I know of for F.L.'S
1.Omo-matic.
2.Dynamo-matic.
3.Surf-matic(which is brand new here.).
4.Cold Power-matic.
5.Drive-matic.(again brand new here.)
6.Fab-matic.
7.Radiant-matic.
And I guess there is possibly 1 or 2 smaller brands which may be all purpose, althoguh if you really want to buty online or have a speciality store near whee you live(which I do) you can get things like Persil and Dixan however they are pretty difficult in nor mal day-to day shopping.
Cheers.
Steve.

 

[bajaespuma]

BRING BACK DASH!!!!!