Older Toilets and Extra Bolts

[rp2813]

I'm about to change out a 1960 toilet with a new one that's ADA height.  I may use the 1960 toilet to replace a 1947 American Standard in another bathroom.  The 1947 one works fine but is a serious water hog and the 1960 one uses significantly less, and it has a more appropriate look (mimics a sleek low one-piece) for the mid-60's bathroom where the Standard currently lives.

 

Both of these older toilets use an extra set of bolts toward the front besides the two at the rear that fasten it to the sewer pipe flange.  What is the purpose of these additional bolts?  They are presumably the wood screw type, but since the holes are spaced differently on the two toilets, I'd have to drill through tile to make new ones.  Are these extra bolts necessary for stability, or can I simply cap off the holes and use only the bolts that attach to the flange?

 

[henry200]

In my experience with older toilets those front end bolts are a bit of overkill.  Once the toilet is secured to the drain flange and a bead of caulk applied around the base it isn't going to budge unless the floor is uneven and someone is deliberately trying to "rock the boat."

 

[rp2813]

Thanks for the advice.

 

Someone is rocking the boat a lot of the time, but not deliberately.  Since my partner Dave had his stroke, he tends to make a hard landing and has managed to loosen all three toilets in the house.  There are grab bars or other means to prevent free-fall, but he doesn't always use them.  So, the ADA height toilet is going in the bathroom he uses most.  I have read testimonials that  just a couple of inches in height can make a big difference.  We shall see.

 

I was thinking along similar lines regarding the extra bolts being overkill.  They didn't help to keep the toilet I'm replacing secure, so I don't see much point in using them if I decide to install it in the other bathroom.

 

[westie2]

Ralph have you thought about keeping the toliet and using a riser for the toliet?  Here is one for on the floor thaty also have then to fit on the rim.  Did this for my dad before he died.

 

 

http://www.accessibleconstruction.com/services/bathrooms/toilevator.html

 

[westie2]

Ralph

Here is another and this even helps clean.

 

 

Solution ComfortSeat Toileting Aid

Award winning toileting aid that allows physically challenged users to wash themselves clean, with the press of a button, when toileting becomes difficult or impossible.

www.solutioncomfortseat.com

 

[qsd-dan]

The 4 bolt pattern was commonly used up until the mid 60's. Some makes/models changed over sooner while lesser common makes seemed to keep that pattern through the late 60's and even into the early 70's. Never had a 2 bolt toilet shift on me in 30+ years, but at 145 pounds, it probably isn't likely to occur, even if I tried. When I replaced a highly loathed 1.6GPF with a 1932 American Standard 5GPF 3 years ago, I just installed the toilet using the rear 2 bolts. No problems so far. However, it may be worth the effort to drill and install the 2 front bolts if you partner is already loosening them up, though.

The 1947 one works fine but is a serious water hog and the 1960 one uses significantly less

Actually, the difference is probably only 1 GPF between both toilets. 5 GPF was common for all American Standard toilets up until the late 50's when they came out with the Cadet model (the larger models, like the Madera/Manaco still used 5 GPF). The Cadet used 4 GPF up until 1977 when they went to 3.5 GPF. However, you may have an incredibly rare 7 GPF model. I kinda doubt it, but it's possible.

 

BTW, is the tank on the '47 AS a wall mount or bowl mount? Round bowl or elongated?

 

[rp2813]

Charles & Dan:

Charles, the bathroom where the new toilet has been installed (Yay! It went fairly smoothly) is the main one that guests use, so I decided against a riser on the existing toilet.  It just so happens that it's also the closest bathroom to the master bedroom (which doesn't have its own bathroom) so it's the one Dave uses most often.

 

Dan, the tank on the '47 is pretty tall, and I've been wondering if it might hold 7 gallons.  It's attached to the toilet, not the wall.   It's a round bowl model.  If you'd be interested in it, just let me know.  It will be free to a good home.  It's white and in good shape all around.  The flush handle is original and a little pitted.  That's the only cosmetic issue.  Mechanically it's fine.  I found a flapper with a large diameter ring specifically designed to fit over older fatter overflow tubes, so I was finally able to get rid of the rod & ball arrangement that was always getting stuck, and it has a modern Fluidmaster fill valve instead of the long-armed float ball type, so the flush/fill system has been updated.

 

 

 

[polkanut]

Ralph,

You can do what you want, but I would install the extra bolts just for peace of mind sake.  Our 1935 American Standard "Modernus" wall mount toilet has the 4 bolt pattern, and after being in place all these years it is still as solid as a rock.  I too have replaced the old insides with Fluidmaster parts, and I also placed 1 1/2 bricks in the tank to help decrease water usage.  I haven't noticed any decreased flushing ability in the 11 years of this set up.

[this post was last edited: 7/24/2012-07:45]

 

[rp2813]

Tim, you mean the tank is wall-mounted, right?  I would love to have entire toilets that are wall-mounted.

 

I think I'll use the extra pair of bolts when I replace the AS toilet with the 1960 one.  I just need to get my hands on a couple of drill bits to go through the tile.

 

After a closer look, I think the AS tank holds 5 gallons max.  I imagined the contents of a 5-gallon water jug fitting in the tank, and I don't think it would hold much more than that.

 

[polkanut]

Yes, only the tank is wall-mounted.

 

[rp2813]

My dad replaced the wall-mounted tank 1926 toilets right after moving into this house in Fall of 1960.  The two existing bathrooms were in shambles.  Well, the whole house was.

 

Here's a shot of the 1947 one I'll be rotating out.  My dad got it for free and installed it in a bathroom that he added on in 1967.  It sat in the yard behind the garage for quite a while first.  Total DIY/shoestring budget project that was!  The floor tiles are all "seconds" from a local bone yard.

 

[rp2813]

The date stamp.

 

 

 

[polkanut]

The date stamp for mine is on the bottom side of the tank cover, 6/28/1935.

[this post was last edited: 7/25/2012-10:00]

 

[circlew]

Ralph, the toilet you show above is just like the one we had, except ours was Ming Green. It was original to the house, which was built in 1952. It had to be replaced in the mid 80's because one of my mom's friends (who was quite large) broke it. We got another A-S in a lighter color called Honeydew. It was a good match to the ceramic tile, so didn't look too out of place.

 

[polkanut]

Hey Dan,

Good to see you posting again!  Don't be such a stranger.

 

[rp2813]

The brand new tract home my parents bought in 1949 had the same AS toilet in green as well as the sink and tub, but I don't know if it was Ming Green.   More like a powdery minty green, not a deep green, so it could have been Honeydew.

 

I'm hoping I can get rid of the '47 toilet by offering it for free on Craigslist.  Otherwise I'll wait until the neighboring town has their big trash hauling program in the spring and drop it off on the curb at a friend's house over there.  I don't think it would be worth hauling up to Ohmega Salvage or Urban Ore, both of which are located in Berkeley and seemed to be on toilet overload when I was last there.

 

[qsd-dan]

Dang, if that '47 had an elongated bowl, I'd be all over it. *Sigh*

 

I replaced 2 low flow toilets here with vintage (more like antique now, I guess). The first is a '53 AS, which happened to have an elongated bowl intact with the original ergonomic seat. Didn't think anything about the elongated bowl design until I used it and then immediately fell in love with it. Just can't get myself to go back now. The second toilet is a '32 AS (elongated, of course), which I found out later is an incredibly rare model. My 3rd toilet is from 1970 and original to the house. It's the famous 4049 model that's rated the best 4 gallon flush toilet ever made, but it's a round bowl and I have been leisurely looking for an art deco elongated bowl toilet to replace it. I have a buddy who will give the 4049 a good home, so I don't feel guilty about getting rid of it.

 

I actually got a hold of a '44 wall mounted reverse trap AS toilet from Craigslist about a year ago. However, I found out the hard way that I need another 2 inches of "rough in" space to accommodate that elbow. Got all new parts for it too (new chrome elbow, fill valve, flush valve, seals, ect). Bummer. Oh well, I'll throw it up on CL. I'm sure someone will enjoy it.

 

I saw an original pillbox toilet for sale on CL a few weeks ago. Would LOVE one of those, but that rough in space is a problem again. Damn 70's house.....

 

[rp2813]

Dan, I'm totally with you re:  elongated bowls.   That's the style of the new toilet.  Men generally appreciate the extra room an elongated bowl provides.

 

[tomturbomatic]

one of my mom's friends (who was quite large) broke it.

That probably is near the top of embarrassing, but funny, bathroom incidents in other people's houses, way beyond clogging it with a monster dump although probably not as bad as creating a huge overflow that causes damage to surrounding carpeted areas and ceiling failure in rooms beneath the throne room. I would not have been able to keep a straight face while listening to her explain what happened. I might have needed oxygen for the laughter. Then again, everyone might have needed oxygen after what she did in the bathroom. Can you tell us about the damage? Sorry for my puerile interest in the event.