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Guess us TL fans are going to have to hit the appliance swap shops and stock up on our vintage favorite TL machines.I too feel this water use "problem" for washers and dishwashers is just too blown out of proportion.Again I repeat as I have said before-the main water problems of usage IS NOT appliances--but external use of water such as watering lawns and gardens(at how some folks water their lawns-we have SEVERAL TL washer loads right there in one day)filling swimming pools in the spring and summer-keep in mind some of these portable pools again use several cold TL washer loads to fill.Now washing cars-how many folks leave the hose on while they are sponging the car?Again another several TL washer loads of water used.Leave our appliances alone please-the gov't needs to SCRAP these water and energy requirements for appliances-the best regulator of energy-water usage is not the machine--BUT YOU!!If these needs are scrapped-another money hogging gov't dept can be shut down-that may save us more money than before!and help our defecit.
I am also NOT GOING to buy an overpriced FL machine.These may do well and all that-but I want the choice to buy one UP TO ME not some dope in the gov't.For my area-a FL machine that lasts only 5-7yrs IS NOT going to pay back in water and energy use.In fact my water price went down last month-due to the water company drilling and putting into service more wells.Maybe other water companies are going to have to do this.
 
Thread# 22112 The BIG Question Post# 346655-5/5/2009-05:37 ||| WasherFan (USA)...

I don't really get this whole idea that it is so essential to save water. GIVE ME A BREAK!

Water is "wasted" all the time. People wash their cars, water their plants & yards, shower frequently, wash dishes, etc.

Yet all the sudden, we are "wasting" water washing clothes? PLEASE!

I learned a long time ago in college that out of all the water on our planet (and if memory serves), 98% is in the oceans, 1.9% is in the glaciers, and 0.1% is the fresh water man has used since the beginning of time.

Instead of making all of us feel bad for "wasting" water, why doesn't the gov't. attempt to find a way to beneficially use the 98%?
 
Desalinization

is very energy intensive. It's better to conserve, or re-treat fresh water.

I would like to see car-washing discouraged without a shut off trigger nozzle. An open hose is just so wasteful.

Even though I sometimes choose the "extra rinse" button, I do not make it a routine. My showerhead is a low flow one, and I get great results with it.

Go watch "Tank Girl" for a world without water.

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
AMEN REX!!!!!!! i ur so right!!!! at least u agree with me, people on here ARENT getting what i am saying, yes we should conserve water and especially people that live in climates where water is limited, HOWEVER, all i am saying is, i should have a CHOICE on what i am able to buy. if i do not want a FL i should not be forced to buy one, as a consumer i should have the choice to buy a top or front loader, not to mention i severly injured my back 4 times already, i HATE bending way down to get clothes out, and i am not paying 250 dollars EACH for a pedistal, it is bad enough i have to bend down for the dryer, and being over 6 feet tall it is very difficult, and i am not convinced about these new high efficency top loaders yet. when i bought my GE filter flo and got rid of my LG tromm, my water bill went up 7 dollars in 3 months!!! and i was washing like CRAZY fro the first month cuz i was soo excited!!! the electricity well... stayed the same, didn't go up and didn't go down.
 
i recently remodeled my bathroom also, and of coourse i HAD to buy a 1.6 gpf, gallon per flush toilet, half the time it gets plugged up, 60 percent of the time i have to flush TWICE! prove me wrong but..... isn't that defeating the whole purpose of "saving" water?? my house was built in 1955, in the main bathroom has the original blue toilet, i kid you not!! that toilet only got plugged ONCE!!! and i have lived here 3 years. i am sure it could be better with a high pressure or pressure assist toilet but they have a hefty price tag.
 
me i hope maytag will continue making top load washers right now i have a whirlpool duet and i realy don't like it the washe time is to long and second of all compare to topload the whirlpool duet is not water effeciant and me in my case i know that i will buy a top load washer for my next washer.

Pierre

Ps: i think that fridgedair will lose alot of money if they stop making topload washers.
 
Toilets

When I was living in the college dorms, I was always in awe of how effective a commercial toilet was at clearing debris. I often flushed unwanted food, and I once went into a stall where someone had left a dirty pair of boxers in the toilet, which was cleared with one flush. I never saw one clog. I know they're loud, but I will have commercial toilets when I do eventually build my own home. I also intend to have a urinal, perhaps in the garage, too.
 
Taking it all for granted

Perhaps Toploader1984 would like (or not) to experience the psychological pain and physical pain of knowing he had no water to drink or wash or cook with yet others in this world were taking it for granted and wasting it willy nilly.
Moaning like a child that something so trivial as using a washing machine is so important compared to potentially saving someones life.... yes it is literally like that!

I can only imagine just how a child born into a third world country through no choice of his own feels when he cant get a cup of water to quench an ongoing thirst that never ends.

I for one am all for washing with Low Levels especially as there is absolutely nothing wrong with todays machines and the water they use.
Water levels have produced excellent jobs in machines where usage was 39l or lower on 5kg loads.

Sadly we have gone back a step or 3 and now have machines using 60 litres for 6/7 kilos.

Perhaps if detergent manufacturers spent more time into sorting out their formulas so that products rinsed better we could lower the consumption again and get back to a justifiable level of water consumption of our machines.

We all should not take for granted the simple things that keep us alive and not aim to waste a single drop which would of been appreciated in everyway in another part of the world.

None of us know what is exactly going to happen in the future either. Who knows what could happen and just because your water supply is plenty now should a disaster happen would you be wishing that you hadnt wasted a drop with hindsight?

As I get older I realise just how appreciative someone can be of any old piece of tat when they dont have anything to start with and what exactly it means for them to have it.

Yes I do use higher wash temperatures but then I am now keen to fill the machine and use it economically but then I dont boilwash for nothing.

Because our machines use just the right amount of water to do a grand job I dont have to worry.

Perhaps if the money saved by not using gallons of hot water in a TL was spent on transporting water to those who were needy many more children would get that drink to keep them alive.

OK its an idealistic vision but remember it may be worth it so save just 1 life maybe????

Its all about social decorum in the circumstance.
 
The discussion about water wasted outside the home?

Our water restrictions are as follows and have been this way for the past 3 months. We're on a good thing here as we can now use water outside the house again.

All hoses must be fitted with a trigger nossle
Hosing (For watering or washing cars) is allowed between 4 and 4.30pm 3 days per week
Bucket Watering allowed at any time.
Target Consumption per person per day, is 200L (52Gal)

Prior to receiving some rain and our Dam levels rising for the last 2 years it was as follows:
Bucket watering between 4-4.30 3 days per week
No washing of cars or hard surfaces
No watering of lawns
Target Consumption per person per day was 140L (37Gal)

We're lucky, our dams got down as low as 16% and we've now had enough rain to take the levels back up to 59%. If we make it to 60% we then go on Permenant conservation measures or Target 230 which gives us a Target consumption of 230L per day and will allow normal use of water outside 10-4pm.

Currently the average water use per person per day this week has been 130L and it hasnt impacted upon anyones life whatsoever.
 
what the usa government SHOULD be worried about instead of washing machines is, water heaters, one appliance that wastes ALOT of energy, burning gas heating 40 gallons or more of water when u are IN BED or not even home!! u wouldnt leave you oven running when u arent home right??? then why isn't anything being done with water heaters? i think tankless water heaters are the best thing since the water heater!!! i would have bought one, but i was told it was 1 grand PLUS another 400 fro installation, BUT, they save on average of 60 percent of savings on your gas usage, that is great, most of them also have a 10 year warranty.
 
and if there is one thing i can add is topload washer are not energy consuming if clothes are washe in cold water and washing in cold water also means that the water heater do not have to heat the wash water before filling the machine the only time i use a hot wash its when i wash bedsheets most of the time i use warm water for white but mostly i wash using cold water.
 
Keith,

I've debated all evening whether to write this or not.

Please take it in the friendly spirit it is offered.

You are obviously in pain and trying to deal with several problems at once.

When bending down to pick up a sock already hurts, pulling 30 pounds of wet wash out of a FL must be torment for hours.

I agree, the time is coming when water usage will be limited considerably.

It seems like politicians in the US are not very good at finding solutions which serve people instead of the other way around.

Yes, I am a firm advocate of saving clean water. No, I don't think the stupid low-water toilets worked out very well and I really think forcing people to accept FLs is not the way to go.

By the by, you don't have to use those gawd-awful pedestals. There are videos on the internet on how to build perfectly stable stands which raise the machines just as much but are cheap and easy to build.
 
and in my opinion they should think of the older genaration i think of my grandmother who change her washer last summer the first time she change her washer she ad a vintage washer from when i was a child when she change it it was another vintage washer her first 1 was an inglis libatror a think it was a model before the pull to start push to stop era then it was an 1988 kenmore model and today she has dd whirlpool and from what i know and how her laundry room is desing a front loader would not even fit the laundry space so before i think that its important to have choices in model i know that in my case i tryed a front load and i don't like it very much so i know that when i chenge it i will buy a top load washer.
 
There are ways...

...to encourage economy without preventing you from using something.

I mentioned in another post about rebates so I'll repeat it here.

If you want someone to buy something - make it cheaper to obtain. The local governements here generally (but not all) give rebates for water efficient appliances which make them cheaper in many cases that a water hungry appliance.

If you want to reduce the consumption of a resource, make it more expensive. People will think about it if their electric bill, gas bill or water bill prices are going to rise...and I am thinking amounts that will make people stop and think, not a couple of cents per unit.

So there you have a couple of options, no legislation to stop you and a choice in place if you want to....

A carrot to encourage lower consumption by way of rebates at time of purchase and....

....a stick with higher utility prices if you want to keep using something that is a drain on available resources.
 
Hi from gotwasher i see we have alot of debate over water if a big deal maybe we should go back to wringers that way we can reuse water. btw iam not beingsmart i drive mopar it dont mind a little gas thank you.
 
There is absolutely nothing wrong with front loaders

They wash better and a lot more gently than a top loader, and CAN rinse just as well and be made to the same quality, whilst using a LOT less water and energy.

I think the main problem with american models are that the wash cycles are just too short. I see here people complaining that front loaders take ALMOST and hour to complete a cycle and have to laugh. That is nothing. They should take a good 90-120mins then results would be as good as our European ones. I understand it isn't really possible for them to heat from cold due to American voltage, but they should all come with auto temperature control and a heater to maintain/boost the temperature.

The truth is what you pay for is what you get. Cheap front and toploaders will not last very long. A Miele should last about 20years, longer than any toploader on the market now.

It should not be a choice whether to waste water and energy or not, if that were the case the government would not be doing this. The strain on resources needs to be reduced as much as possible.

As much as many people hate change, Americans are going to have to get used to front loaders and their longer cycle times, and while they're at it getting used to line drying indoors and out would be a great thing. Americans seem to use dryers an appauling amount and line drying really needs to be encouraged as much as possible. Dryers are completely unecessary and a massive waste of energy. Perhaps banning them full stop, as has been suggested in another thread, will be the only way to stop people using them...

Matt
 
everybody is making a big deal over water, water can be recycled!!! our planet is made up of 98 percent water hello??? they have ways to convert salt water into fresh drinking water.... things like gasoline and natural gas cannot be replaced, of course the only people that are AGAINST top loaders are people that live in the UK!!!! and what pay fro is what u get isnt true.. i spent almost 2 grand on my LG washer and dryer and 2 years later the piece of JUNK is sitting in my basement unsued, i just bought a GE filter flo that is OVER 25 years old!!! and runs FINE, which i spent 150 dollars for the washer and dryer, you people that go on and on about saving water i bet dont think anything about watering your grass, that is wasting!! HELLOOOO!!!! I AM NOT SAYING NOT TO CONSERVE WATER!!!!! IM SAYING THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT FORCE PEOPLE TO BUY WHAT THEY DONT WANT!!!! what if the government told u what type of food you had to eat??? or what to wear? what would you have to say wbout that????
 
Dryers are completely unecessary and a massive waste of energy. Perhaps banning them full stop, as has been suggested in another thread, will be the only way to stop people using them..

Sorry, totally disagree with that one....not everyone has the luxury of time and space to hang clothes to dry, not to mention, iron everything that comes off a clothesline, in itself a waste of time and energy. Add to that the frequent summer thunderstorms and humidity of certain locations, and line drying is not always an option. Why don't we just go pound our clothes against rocks by the river to clean them, too, while we're at it? That'll save plenty of water and energy....might mess up a few rivers though......

There are other energy alternatives besides fossil fuels that this country has let fall by the wayside, such as nuclear, solar and wind power. Perfectly clean energy, sustainable, non-polluting and reliable. Florida Power & Light is in the process of constructing a 75 MW solar powered generating station right now, planned for the Fort Myers area. Total solar. The planned purpose was to be for a solar powered city, but with Ft. Myer's dismal real estate market, that plan will have to wait. But FP&L is going ahead with the project, along with a brand spanking new nuclear power plant, in addition to the nuke that Progress Energy is currently planning. It's about damned time.

The point is not to have to do without or necessarily change habits all around, but to pursue other alternatives for clean, reliable, readily available energy sources to power current and future demand, while reducing the need for fossil fuel consumption. The technology is there, all we have to do is create the demand for it.

Why does the rest of the world always assume that the US always has to change its ways to accomodate the shortcomings that may be prevelant in other countries when there are other options that are available (and not just to us here in the US)? So give up your own damned dryers, I'm keeping mine.
 
water can be recylced

But that uses a lot of energy and costs money.

As for the government forcing people to buy what they don't want they havent. People want washing machines that clean their clothes, all the government want is for them to do that with less water. Top loaders haven't been banned, they will only stop selling them if demand for them falls from what I can see, and that appears to be the case.

As for your LG set were you not trying to sell it a little while ago? If so, I assume it still works fine and from what I can see your only complaints about it are the cycle times, whch are not long at all compared to some machines. It may take some getting used to, but I think the cycle times have to be overlooked.

Matt
 
LMFAO @ Post# 348628. How can a front loader wash better? I would love to see a test where a TL and FL wash a similarly stained/dirty load of laundry. That would be the only way to prove that argument. So it is suppose to take 2 hours to wash a load of clothing in a UK FL. That's... INSANE!

I mostly agree with toploader1984 but he needs to add a few Aussies and local Algore followers to his list. It kind of reminds me about the Sam Kinison skit on World Hunger...

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How can a front loader wash better than a toploader?

Well the longer wash times and better control over temperature for a start, not to mention the more efficient action of the clothes being plunged in and out of the water and rubbing against the other clothes and the drum.

Also the evidence is there, the majority of people seem to have noticed an improvement in wash results going from a top loader to a front loader.

So clothes are supposed to be clean after a 20-30 min wash in a US machine, thats INSANE!

Also as for ironing, I don't iron my clothes and they aren't creased at all from line drying, infact they are considerably more creased from the dryer, particularly the american dryers I have used here at university. They just seem to bake creases in, even on the lowest heat setting. Line drying just lets the creases fall out as the clothes dry.

I don't necessarily have the space or climate to line dry, but my clothes have also been shrunk very badly from dryers, particularly the american ones here, and this is on the lowest heat setting. I'd rather have my room full of wet washing, than have clothes that only fit the first time I wear them

Matt
 
So clothes are supposed to be clean after a 20-30 min wash i

Clothes are clean after a 10 Min wash ;)
 
Why should Americans change?

Well as a free nation and a country with one of the largest and most energy hungry populations in the world, I would suggest that it's called 'leading by example'.

The rest of us can do it, why can't Americans?

It is all well and good to bleat about 'I am entitled to do what I want, when I want with what I want' in as many scenarios as you like, but when it all boils down to it, there are consequences in the future for what we do today such as long term water shortages and restrictions on usage which parts of America are already experiencing.

You may well ask 'why is this my problem', well let me just enlighten you about what a couple of State Governments here have been discussing and which could happen in the USA. In Western Australia, the ACT (Canberra) and Queensland, there has been discussion about piping water from areas that have it to those that do not. Now you may well think 'how could this affect me?'. Well, if you live where water is quite plentiful and where a scheme like this could be put into action.....how about when other people start using 'your' water because they have little.

- What pressure will it put on your supply?
- What will it do to prices in your area?
- How will you FEEL when others are using something that you have been able to use without consideration?'
- What impact will that usage have on your own access to this resource that covers most of the planet yet we can't readily access?

Now on another note.

Clothes may well be clean after 10min in a top loader machine using lots and lots of nice clean drinking water. I would expect them to be as would any person on this forum. BUT, with a drop in water consumption comes a corresponding increase in cycle time.

Most European machines have a quick wash facility for less that full loads that will cut the cycle time from around 2-2 1/2hrs to between 60-90min. A warm wash in my Westinghouse badged Italian made Electrolux goes from 1:57 to 1:08. I use that for 80% of my washing provided it isn't a 'full' load and it is perfect....if the load is 'full' and by that I mean when you are putting the last items in, the drum is moving back and forth, I don't select 'quick wash'.

The next question is...

'How much washing do you put in your machine?' I ask as if you are not using the capacity but running high water levels it is very wastefull. As an example, a 6.5kg load which is 15lb (my capacity) is a lot of washing and equivalent to at least about 8 queen sized sheets and 8 pillow slips...Now I'd wash that on a long cycle.

Time is relevant too....

Who cares if it takes 2hrs???

I don't hang around waiting for the washing to finish. I plan to do other things. Garden, vaccuum, relax, read, watch TV, start dinner and chat online...why does it matter if it takes 2hrs? It takes 5 minutes to get it in the machine and 10seconds to start it. It certainly doesn't take YOU 2hrs. While it is washing, it is YOUR time to do with what you will. Have a look at some of the old washing machine and dishwasher advertising that regularly pop up in pic of the day on here....they shouted from the rooftops that 'This machine will free up your time!'

Sigh....I feel I'm beating my head with an agitator
 
Chris

Very well said. Thank you for supporting me.

Not wishing to cause offence but some people really need to see that older and less efficient does not mean better results.

You could run like 4 loads through a front loader and use the same amount of water as a top loader, yet have the same or better results.

With the exception of Speed Queen, modern american toploaders all look awful anyway, so I don't see why anyone is crying over the loss of a budget machine which has been bad mouthed many a time on this site.

Matt
 
Plastic tastes like chicken...

Since I don't do a lot of big loads, I couldn't justify the cost of a front loader. I would end up using the same amount of resources with an LG Steam Washer that I ordinarily do with my two portables. But if someone were to give me a new Cabrio or Duet for the really tough jobs I wouldn't want to heave on my belt-drive Whirlpool, I certainly wouldn't turn it down. A Bravos can be disposed of as easily as a used trash bag; just feed it to a hungry shredder. Afterall, them things gotta eat too!

Now before someone gets off on a tangent about their beloved Frigidaire Affinity, lighten up a little. This thread can certainly use some humor.

NorfolkSouthern

 
Since I don't do a lot of big loads, I couldn't just

NorfolkSouthern,

I am unsure of what you mean by 'portable'. If you mean a 'twin tub', then I agree with you as, generally, you reuse the wash water. If you mean a mobile automatic, then I think you may be surprised.

European made or sized (24" wide) front load automatics will generally adapt to how much washing you put in. The pressure sensor in it will judge how much washing you have in based on the cycle you select and its' absorbancy of the water. If you wash a full load on a normal cycle it will use more water than if you wash 2/3 or half of the capacity on the same cycle. Top range machines in Mieles' (and others) ranges also tend to have turbidity sensors which detect how much detergent is left in the rinse water and may or may not add a rinse to ensure the correct result.

Basically, it they take the guess work out of 'how big a load'.....

http://www.whirlpool.com/catalog/product.jsp?src=WASHERS&cat=115&prod=1420
 
"Clothes may well be clean after 10min in a top loader machine using lots and lots of nice clean drinking water. I would expect them to be as would any person on this forum. BUT, with a drop in water consumption comes a corresponding increase in cycle time."

So it is more important to use lots and lots of electricity most of which comes from burning lots and lots of coal?

"Not wishing to cause offence but some people really need to see that older and less efficient does not mean better results."

No offense taken, but I disagree with you. I like to think this site exists because older is better. I am sorry some have water restrictions but the fact remains a lot of us do not. I pay $30 for 2000 gallons of water and sewer. Now for some fun with math :)

If I use a toploader that uses 40 gallons of water total to wash, spray rinse, and soak rinse and I do 7 loads a week, that would be 210 gallons of water per week. 5 weeks and I am at 1050 gallons of water which is 52.5% of my limit. If I go over my limit (never happens) it is about $3.00 per 1,000 gallons over my limit.

On top of that, when I had a TL, I either did big loads of laundry using a full tub of water or I did smaller loads using lower levels of water. Not every wash in a TL is a full tub wash.

I am amazed no one seems to bring up electricity. Running a FL for 2 hours uses WAY MORE electricity than a TL running maybe 30 minutes total. There are many ways to make electricity but the vast majority of it comes from coal. That is just great for the air we all breathe. Of course most Americans are scared of nuclear power thanks to "The China Syndrome" and Three Mile Island.

I do remember someone here in this thread brought up water heaters and wondered why we had 40 gallon water heaters. I cannot speak for the rest of the US, but mine is gas. It is CHEAP to use. My last natural gas bill was about $40. My furnace is also gas so during winter months my bill is about $150. I think using a water heater powered by electricity would cost more.

I would almost pay money to go to a US wash-in with a whole bunch of TLs running full of water not washing hardly anything just to see the foreigners run around screaming as if the sky was falling down.
 
A Little More Fun With Math

I found a 4 year old Amana using Speed Queen parts on Craigslist that I have agreed to purchase for a grand total of $20.

I could go out and buy a new Miele W4840 for about $1,800 with a pedestal for an addition $300 for a total of $2,100.

Now for the fun... NO MATH REQUIRED! You would have to have been born on a turnip truck to not see you are getting screwed.

If I am not going over my water usage limit, I will not save any money on water. I might see a decrease in my gas usage for my water heater but I doubt it would be much. Maybe $5 per month lower. It will obviously need more electricity due to the insanely longer wash times.

Oh hell, let's do some math. Assuming my electricity usage stays the same and I am saving $5 per month on gas...

$5 X 12 months = $60 a year in savings.

$2,100 Miele / $60 a year = 35 years!!!

So to break even on a $2,100 investment in a washing machine (no dryer added on), it would take 35 BLEEPING YEARS TO BREAK EVEN ON IT!!! 35!!! 3... 5... 35!!!

Now who is the pot calling the kettle black?

Oh hell, let's add on a matching FL dryer to that Miele W4840 washer which would be a Miele T9820 dryer. We will also need another pedestal...

$1,250 dryer + $300 pedestal = $1,550

$1,550 dryer + $2,100 washer = $3,650

$3,650 / $60 in yearly gas savings = ~61 YEARS!!!

And if you think you will squeak by for 35 or 61 years without a problem you are sadly mistaken. How about another $500 for a replacement control board after maybe 10 years (or way sooner)? How about $200 for labor? How about money spent at the creepy local laundry mat while your $2,100 washer is being repaired?

Thanks but NO THANKS!
 
Water in Australia

Washerfan,
Well then you are in the fortunate postion of where you live not having a problem with water supply, here in the driest continent on Earth there have and still are problems with water supply,I understand the state of South Australia is still in dire straits with it's water supply, it's main source being the Murray river is basically dying and if something is not done soon the consequences could be incalculable.
Queensland's capital city, Brisbane earlier this year was down to only about 16% dam capacity, they have had quite a bit of rainfall recently which has helped,my capital of Sydney was down the 30% water until heavy rain also helped us,the city of Goulburn, not far from Canberrra,last year was in such a terrible predicament that the population were only able to use 2-3 buckets of water per day for everything,as it's dam was nearly empty.
You say you would pay to see a wash-in with a row of top loaders washing hardly anything full of water just to see the foreigners running around like chicken littles, well then how would you justify that to a family who are bathing their kids in 2 plastic buckets of water.
By the way why does it matter if the washing isn't done in 10 minutes flat, as Chris says don't you have other things to do besides waiting for your washer to finsh? if speed in washing is so important, consider getting a twin-tub, they are faster than any other washer, you can actually save water by spinning wash water back into the washtub,which I do in mine.
Cheers.
 

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