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What I have a problem with is the attitude that front loader

Well in terms of water and energy consumption they are superior.

If energy and water resources continue to be depleated as they are, they will be inevitable too.

Some of the claims made here are rediculous.

I suppose I should just feel honoured that I am allowed to discuss my "inferior" front loader here.

I'm sure toploaders do a very good job, just as front loaders do, but it is undeniable that they use much more water and energy to do so, and that this is a drawback, not a positive.

Wasting rescourses is NOT a choice, its something we must all try to do. I don't see the problem with the government getting rid of modern toploaders, they have introduced an alternative which does the job using far fewer resources and are therefore phasing out the older technology.

It's not as if they are coming into your homes and hauling your older top loaders away. Then I would understand all this fuss about it.

Matt
 
Using civilwater to drink and rain to wash?

Maybe you guys are just a bit spoiled by getting cheap water right from the tap. Well I can say we aren't. Water is expensive, so restricting or not, there are easy ways to get it cheap. Rain, water that falls from heaven, is FREE at some point. It's good enough to flush toilets, water lawns, and do the laundry. If you count the savings you make by collecting it and pumping it up, you would be amazed! For those who still want toploaders, ever checked the SUDS/RINSE save options? I mean wash water form the first load is perfect for prewashing, soaking heavy soiled stuff. Rinsewater can be the washwater for next load. Think about it...
 
Wasting rescourses is NOT a choice, its something we must al

...er...Matt, I think you meant was

'Wasting resources is NOT a choice, it is something we must all try NOT to do.
 
LOL.....

S'alright mate, we're watching you type...even though I just fell asleep on the lounge and my throat hurts - must have been snorning....

Me, snore? HA!
 
Ever checked the Suds / Rinse Save option?

Askomiele,

You make one VERY valid point. Almost EVERY top loader in Australia had a Suds Save facility up until the early 1990's, now only a couple of machines offer it as an option.

I currently use a top loader but re-use the clear rinse water for the next load, therefore saving on water.

But, if i'm not mistaken, not many machines on the US market had this option which is a pity. While i prefer a top loader, even i have to concede i will have to get a more efficient front loader in the not too distant future.

Leon
 
toploader1984

I have a tankless water heater and I installed it by myself.

Installation is incredibly easy. I did it in less than 15 minutes.

In your case, i bet you would take a little more because you have to remove the old heater or, if you have enough space, just install the new heater next to the older, install it in line, after the tank and just let the tank off.

If you want, i can help you my email or msn.

the only tools you'll need are a drill, some hoses, teflon tape and a pipe wrench.
 
Tankless water heaters...

...Are available here, but they can be a pain in the neck if the distance from the heat unit to tap is too long and you can end up sending lots of water down the drain.

Distance, though, can play a part in any home. Thankfully, our longest pipe run is only about 10'.
 
Oh Dear

The GREAT GREEN RELIGION................divides all, like every other religion...........the only winners are the utility companies and governments............the poor public are bombarded with guilt and spin to control them........this is fastest growing most damaging industry ................the perpetuators of this all should be shot

I for one am not drawn into any of this, it is to me the "Crime of the Century"
 
Gary

In some cases yes and in others not quite.

I'm not going to bang on about endlessly going green (and I don't think I ever mention 'green'), but many parts of Oz are at risk of literally running out of water. Some of our largest and most powerful rivers now 'run' at a trickle compared to even 10yrs ago. Now whilst this isn't the fault of the person doing washing or having a long shower, but rather agriculture and the way industry uses water here, governments have seen fit to entice us to reduce...

When you wave cash-in-hand money under peoples' noses, they tend to react.

The bigger issue here though are that rain patterns have changed and where once dams were normally at least 60% full, they are now, in some instances, less than 15%....so something has to be done. Industry too is doing something. There has been more regulation about waste and what may be reintroduced into the supply chain from a treatment perspective...this in turn also may drive costs up for what is produced in those industrys...

Additionally, most people in Australia would probably agree that if you live where there are shortages then there is a societal obligation to do what you can to ensure that we don't actually run out....

Leon is a perfect example. He recently posted that his rinse water becomes the next cycles wash water. That is one of the great advantages of 'sudssavers' on older top load machines. By doing that, his consumption per cycle probably drops by a 1/3....
 
Thank you electron 1100...you are so right!

Here in Oz we've already had two murders over someone hosing their lawn. One in Queensland and the other in NSW. In both cases the people hosing were quite within their legal right to do so. Yet, the nutjobs that were playing water-warriors thought they had the moral high-ground - so they resorted to murderous violence.

This issue about wastefulness and the environment is primarily about money and very little else. It is en masse social and economic manipulation playing on middle class fears, insecurities, nihilism and morality. A good number of posts in here clearly demonstrate how easily people are manipulated into believing that their stance is morally and intellectually superior.

Lets take the 'America the wantonly wasteful' argument - so loved by many Europeans and some Australians. Of course anyone who has lived in the US for any length of time knows that most Americans live modest lives. They live in modest homes, drive modest cars and get by on modest incomes. They may, depending on where in the US they live, pay a little less for some consumer goods, energy, housing, income tax and so on, than their European and Australian counterparts. Though, they also, in most cases, don't get the same social services that post-war Europeans and 'some' Australians now take as a god-given right. Most of the Americans I know are very modest people in every respect. There is nothing intentioanlly irresponsible or wantonly wasteful about anything they do. The kinds of wasteful life-styles Europeans accuse Americans of living, most Americans can't even afford and the same goes for Australia as well.

BTW, often there are very valid and compelling reasons why people in the US and 'some' Australians, drive big petrol-guzzling cars for example, or why they don't do things like they do in Europe, or more efficiently or whatever - but I won't go into those now, can't be stuffed.

This is my slant - Using a front as opposed to a top loader makes absolutely no difference regarding the water situation in the developing world. It is also not going to make a real difference in drought affected areas in Australia. Here are our (Australian) governments allocating vast sums to save a few drops, nitpicking over crap, whilst they allow most of this resource to simply gush away. Then they place the onus on low to middle income households with propaganda, incomplete information and half-arsed moralizing. Most people I know aren't really wasteful, quite the opposite actually. They just want to get by without being brow-bashed every five minutes about how inefficient, environmentally unsound and morally reprehensible their 21st centure life is.

Anyway, the moral of my story is that there is no moral high ground to be derived from using a front loader, but I get very clean and well-rinsed clothes from my top loader. I also do this using less electricity, because I use gas to heat my water and produce solar electricity, plus I have a rainwater tank (but I don't like using it on my laundry), I flush the downstairs toilet with it instead.

Cheers

rapunzel
 
Rapunzal

Thankyou for articulating my thoughts on this sunject.

I have no issue with people who live in parts of the world where water is in short supply, they will have accomodated this in their lifestyles already

But I have issue with as Rapunzel says those that take the moral high ground and become holier than thou in there approach, puritanism never impresses me no matter what it relates to

I work in recycling and the town i work is full of ageing middle class hippies who have spent far too much time doing drugs and fighting any cause they happen to take a shine to, they are so up there own arse they cant even smile and this new green religion has allowed them to become even bigger sanctimonious pious bores..........

Gary
 
I think this excerpt from my post 349000 really sums up how I think.

'When it all boils down to it, I don't begrudge anyone using an appliance appropriately (you define it!) be it vintage or new. What I do begrudge is the 'don't give a toss' attitude that some people exhibit when responding to others and that includes deriding your elected officials. If people don't like what is happening in their oun country, they should lobby those responcible for making the changes. If you can't be bothered voting and having a say with your vote or writing a letter to a local member, then your criticism and moans fall on deaf ears no matter how valid they are.'

...with an emphasis on the 'don't give a toss' attitude.

Maybe I do care just a little too much about what happens both locally and nationally. I have never really thought of myself as 'green' or a conservationalist - certainly not as a radical one - but the more I think about it, the more I can't stand waste for the sake of waste especially if something can be done about it:

- We recycle as much as practical (at least 95% that can be)
- have pearlator taps to give the feeling of high flow
- low voltage lights or fluro globes (have you tried to get Bayonet cap incandecent bulbs lately?)
- AAA rated shower rose
- run the dishwasher when full even though it can do either a top or bottom rack wash on any cycle.
- hand water the garden beds (use of fixed sprinklers are illegal here at the moment as is lawn watering and car washing at home)

Our environmental downfall is the dryer as half the washing goes through it. So no, I'm certainly not perfect and could be better...

...all I ask people to do is 'to consider the impact they make' rather than just keep on using as if something can not run out for at some point it just may as Goulburn got perilously close to finding out and some parts of America as posted here....
 
i really wish all of these smar a$%^ people from the uk would stop posting on here, we didnt ask for your opinion... this world is so messed up!! we are so WORRIED about saving a gallon of water and a few killowatts, HELLO!! they r banning regular light bulbs which are a health hazard.... which are ONLY MADE IN CHINA ha, like i wanna support them. there isnt many places that recycle used high efficency light bulbs, which means all of the mercury in them will eventually get in landfills and leak into our water supply. i am so sick and tired of the american government telling me what i can buy, FREE COUNTRY MY a&^%.
 
i really wish all of these smar a$%^ people from the uk woul

All right keith you pipsqueak, you've gone way too far in being rude. And that's an understatement!!. HOW DARE YOU!! This is a free board where everyone is entitled to express their opinion, but with that freedom of expression comes with the need for tact and yes, even if you don't agree, still some resemblance of respect for someone elses' opinion. You're the one who needs to stop postinging. How dare you malign indivuals form other parts of the globe. You refuse to see and are so damned narrow-minded about your beliefs, you don't wanna see that there are truely other places in the world who do have a legitimate reason for being conservative, albeit either because of natural resource bounty (lack thereof), or because of simple economic situations. Yes, in some ways everything is totally upside down in the approach and it appears to be a bandaid trying to stop the flood of water coming into the Titanic. I have to be concerned about water usage because the expense of my water bill and my source of water is a huge man-made lake less than 5 miles from my house. I have no chhoice but to water my yard and keep my soil moist so my foundation doesn't crack. I'll quit watering and you can fork over the $20,000 to $35,000 to thoroughly repair my foundation!!! I'm not thrilled about the new proposed CAFE higher mileage standard recommended by the Obama admin. The result will make purchasing and using pick-ups extremely expensive, which will do away with "Bubba" toolin around in his pick-up truck, and I like bein with Bubba, they're usually sexy bears. But we're all gonna have to make sopme sacrifices to develop more efficient vehicles. And don't tell me to start walkking mroe places instead of driving everywher else. Cuz I'll turn and hit your sorry a** self over your head with my leg brace and that sucker can hurt!! So get with the program buster and start being a little bit more tactful in how you approach situations. Most everyone around here who has known me since 1999 or 2000 when we all started this thing, I don't get riled up very often, but you torked me off royally.
 
I don't normally...

....get my undies in a twist, but Keith, you're so far out of line it isn't true.

Firstly, it isn't just the 'people from the UK' that have been posting here. People from all over Western Europe have posted comments here, but mainly the UK (which includes England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland if you aren't 100% sure), Germany, Netherlands and the Republic of Ireland (MrX doesn't say).

Now just to clarify something else.

I am from Canberra, Australia as it clearly says next to my name. We're that large island the size of mainland USA that is under Asia in the atlas or on the globe you possibly saw in school. That's it, between the Indian and Pacific oceans. I take exception that if you're going to be rude to one (the UK people), please be equally offensive to others who have posted (that'd be me in this case). I have probably written more posts here that have inflamed your sensitive, self centred and self serving nature than most people so please do me the courtesy of at least including my in your rants.

Now, when it comes to posting on a forum, if you don't want people to reply;

- when they feel they need to clarify something for you
- justify why things may occur
- give their opinion on certain issues
- or even be flippant with a smile on their faces when they type

...then do the rest of us a favour and send yourself an email rather than posting because whilst we would like to have your opinion on any topic you please to discuss, we certainly do NOT need it given in such a way that it is;

- rude in general
- destructive to automatic washer community's engagement in forum usage
- derrogatory to other users in particular.

Now, as I mentioned above, I, and I am sure others, do value opinions given about various topics. Some of these I respond to. Some I don't. This was one that I did. My comments, opinions and remarks are as valid as any other persons on this forum. They are mine and mine alone when I write them and if others happen to agree with me at some point, then that is wonderfull. I certainly don't expect everyone to AGREE with them and you, and others, are welcome to openly disagree. That is what debate is all about. But do it in a well-mannered and polite way.

However, what I do expect is that people appreciate why I may have certain opinions, especially since I normally give a justification as to why I said something, AND accept that I am entitled to think a particular way REGARDLESS of what they as an individual may think.

Chris
 
While that... in the batcave....

why the hell don't you go back to the topic of this thread?

tip: OMG who's the next?

I've heard something about Mr. Obama... HE cars... co² emissions... 7 years...

Will you (Americans) have to ask for HE gasoline in a few years when you go to a gas station? LOL

Can you imagine a HE car trying to balance it's load? LOL
 
YOU KNOW WHAT..... I EXPRESSED MY OPINION AND EVERYBODY HAS BEEN RUDE TO ME... SAYING I AM WASTEFUL WITH WATER B CUZ I LIKE TOP LOADERS.. ETC... SAYING I AM "GREEDY" AND IGNORANT...NOW ITS MY TURN TO BE RUDE RIGHT BACK. THIS WEBSITE WAS STARTED ON VINTAGE TOP LOADERS ANYWAYS.
 
Boy, glad I skipped this thread for awhile--it got a little hot. Now that we are in cool down mode. I wills say that I love my toploader too. When I do buy a new machine I am considering a front load, because I am wanting to conserve; but I do feel that the machine should reach the end of it's lifecycle before being scrapped--otherwise we are being wasteful. Use it til it's done.

I do live in the center of America, and thank all that is good we are not in the middle of a dessert, but our water supply is dwindling with population growth. The equis beds that Wichita has pulled about 80% of it's water from for years has started to deplete to the point that salt water is seeping in. We do have a resivor as our back up water source, and are pulling water from the Arkansas River, treating it and pumping about six million gallons of water per day back to the equis beds. In high rain periods, they predict that we will recover as much as 68 million gallons of water per day to replentish years of irrigation and wastefulness.

The old saying "water, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink" could soon be truerer than ever, so I do see a need to conserve.

I think the U.S. is seeing what the EU has seen for years, and we are just coming to terms with it. I honestly hope we never see restrictions like what AU is seeing. So in short, I agree with both sides of the issue.
 
Why are we not

1- burning garbage (and "scrubbing" the smokestack) to
2- generate electricity and use the waste steam to
3- distill salt water?

This solves three problems at once.

I'd say our number one priority is to stop buying foreign oil, in all this "green" thought process.
 
~So clothes are supposed to be clean after a 20-30 min wash in a US machine, that's INSANE!

Water + mechanical action in a top-loader = heat + time in a front-loader.

Satisfactory results can be found adjusting any of the many "washing" variables.

Just as with all things in life, one adds what one can to the mix for what is lacking, to achieve the best possible results under the contraints given.


The funny thing about cultures is that, that which is familar to one seems best.
 
I EXPRESSED MY OPINION AND EVERYBODY HAS BEEN RUDE TO ME...

Newton's Laws of Thermo-dynamics. For every aciton there is an equal and opposite reaction. We don't walk forward; we push the Earth back.

Soemtimes FU be made to sound like poetry and I LOVE YOU can sound menacing. Perhaps the difference is not WHAT is said but HOW it is said.Opinions are like A$$-oles; everyone has one and some stink more than others.

Regardless of how we WANT life to unfold itself or the people around us to be (or say how we want the gum-ment to be), it is what and how it is. Deal with it or make it better. Complaining (and worrying)solves nothing.

All I can futher say is this: those who don't bend, break. Learn to be flexible and forgiving now, for it doesn't get any easier as one gets older.

-It can never hurt to say out load, "Yes dear you have a point", while inwardly thinking "M-A-L-A-K-A!" (Google it, search Wikipedia or go to Urban Dictionary)

I now get off my soap box. Love peace and blessings to all.
 

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