On This Website Is......
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perc-o-prince
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That's wonderful news Robert. Perfect!
No! That's not perfect news. I have nothing against you, Steve(Gyrafoam), or Keven(Panthera), but Robert shouldn't have to spend one extra second of his time, and one extra penny of his money to keep peace and harmony in a forum that is HIS!!!! If this were in my livingroom, I would kindly ask the offending parties to leave my house. I have done it before and I'm considered a very gracious host by many.
I read these pissing contests between what seems to be the same people, while trying to glean just a bit of knowledge from a post, and I find myself becoming embarassed to be gay. I'm not one to shy away from a good conversation but to see things like, "That's the nature of queens. That's why I am so glad we have so many women and straight men in the club," "I enjoy a mud-slinging queenly battle just as much as any other lady, you are one of the very few queens around here who is not only capable of true being truly nasty, but has the intelligence to make it worth it. I doubt you'd want to truly bed any of those sycophants who 'think' you're taking their side in these debates, and the pity-fcuk you provide them is pretty thin gruel - as a true queen, you deserve a better group of supporters," and, "that is the difference between a blue-blooded queen and a bitchette suffering from PMS. Gyrofoam never lets an opportunity to get a good dig pass, but never, ever (well, hardly ever) says anything unladylike."
If that's what being gay is about then I can't take pride in that. To see gay people described as, "unladylike bitchy queens," is just unacceptable and I'm ashamed to be associated with it.
Keven, I don't think that you are full of hate as has been suggested. I do think that you are very angry at things that have happened to you. It sounds like you have experienced some bad things in your life, and, in my own humble opinion, your anger is right on the surface. I'm truly sorry for these bad experinces, BUT we all have had bad experinces and carry a certain load of baggage with us. How we carry it is what makes us unique. How you carry it seems a bit self-destructive and is not terribly attractive to others. You doubt that people have left this forum because of you. Please don't doubt it. They have! I find that I participate much less because of your strong opinions and abrasive manner in which you state them. It's not JUST you, but it always seems to be tied to you in some way. I'm truly sorry to have to say that because I'm always the one who hates to see anyone's feelings hurt but you just don't seem to get it when people tell you that it's a problem. I have to say that I found it to be a much more relaxed atmosphere when you weren't posting this summer. I guess what my bottom-line point is; I'm tired of having to go to the other side of the cyber-livingroom because I don't like the discourse and forced opinions of a few loudmouths. We've all been to these parties and all know the discomfort of the guy/girl who "knows it all" and makes sure that everyone hears them! I generally take so much then leave. Sadly, that's just what I'm doing now. I'm taking a break from all of this, so, Keven, you can no longer dispute that someone left because of you.
And, as a final note, before you suggest that I don't have to read your posts, the 800 pound gorilla in the room doesn't necessarily have to be addressed, but he's pretty tough to ignore.
Please excuse my bluntness.
Rich
No! That's not perfect news. I have nothing against you, Steve(Gyrafoam), or Keven(Panthera), but Robert shouldn't have to spend one extra second of his time, and one extra penny of his money to keep peace and harmony in a forum that is HIS!!!! If this were in my livingroom, I would kindly ask the offending parties to leave my house. I have done it before and I'm considered a very gracious host by many.
I read these pissing contests between what seems to be the same people, while trying to glean just a bit of knowledge from a post, and I find myself becoming embarassed to be gay. I'm not one to shy away from a good conversation but to see things like, "That's the nature of queens. That's why I am so glad we have so many women and straight men in the club," "I enjoy a mud-slinging queenly battle just as much as any other lady, you are one of the very few queens around here who is not only capable of true being truly nasty, but has the intelligence to make it worth it. I doubt you'd want to truly bed any of those sycophants who 'think' you're taking their side in these debates, and the pity-fcuk you provide them is pretty thin gruel - as a true queen, you deserve a better group of supporters," and, "that is the difference between a blue-blooded queen and a bitchette suffering from PMS. Gyrofoam never lets an opportunity to get a good dig pass, but never, ever (well, hardly ever) says anything unladylike."
If that's what being gay is about then I can't take pride in that. To see gay people described as, "unladylike bitchy queens," is just unacceptable and I'm ashamed to be associated with it.
Keven, I don't think that you are full of hate as has been suggested. I do think that you are very angry at things that have happened to you. It sounds like you have experienced some bad things in your life, and, in my own humble opinion, your anger is right on the surface. I'm truly sorry for these bad experinces, BUT we all have had bad experinces and carry a certain load of baggage with us. How we carry it is what makes us unique. How you carry it seems a bit self-destructive and is not terribly attractive to others. You doubt that people have left this forum because of you. Please don't doubt it. They have! I find that I participate much less because of your strong opinions and abrasive manner in which you state them. It's not JUST you, but it always seems to be tied to you in some way. I'm truly sorry to have to say that because I'm always the one who hates to see anyone's feelings hurt but you just don't seem to get it when people tell you that it's a problem. I have to say that I found it to be a much more relaxed atmosphere when you weren't posting this summer. I guess what my bottom-line point is; I'm tired of having to go to the other side of the cyber-livingroom because I don't like the discourse and forced opinions of a few loudmouths. We've all been to these parties and all know the discomfort of the guy/girl who "knows it all" and makes sure that everyone hears them! I generally take so much then leave. Sadly, that's just what I'm doing now. I'm taking a break from all of this, so, Keven, you can no longer dispute that someone left because of you.
And, as a final note, before you suggest that I don't have to read your posts, the 800 pound gorilla in the room doesn't necessarily have to be addressed, but he's pretty tough to ignore.
Please excuse my bluntness.
Rich
Very Well Communicated Rich!
Rich!
Thanks for posting your opinion!
I agree that Robert should not have to be doing this reconstruction job. And I hope he does not. It is too much time and money, etc.
Usually when the "pissing contest" starts it is because someone is trying to put out a fire. Then someone always starts this personal attack. It is always obvious that it is a "set up". I think we all know what person wins this award. This I understand is a part of life in the straight or gay world. However in real life the catalyst is usually knocked out of the normal circle of humans that are trying to be civil...kind...and normal humans. The huge problem here is that this person hides in the shadows and looks for any chance to start trouble. It is not hard to figure out this persons intentions ever time! And the part that really gets under my skin is that they somehow always try to make themselves look like a victim in the end! Sicko! Really sad if you ask me.
I thought when this person returned from his hiding, he would have changed and started a new view on being tactful. Yea, obvious this is not the case. So on to the next step. I just don't think the next step should be Robert needing to go through extremes for one or two people.
The trouble makers know who they are. I can only think of one who is active right now. Reason for this is because I don't read every post. I thought this post was interesting from the beginning because a person thought this was a safe place to ask a very serious question about a life changing event. They were not asking for this outcome. However, you see this type of outcome when certain posters are not hiding in the shadows and making their sick presence known.
My two cents....
Brent
Rich!
Thanks for posting your opinion!
I agree that Robert should not have to be doing this reconstruction job. And I hope he does not. It is too much time and money, etc.
Usually when the "pissing contest" starts it is because someone is trying to put out a fire. Then someone always starts this personal attack. It is always obvious that it is a "set up". I think we all know what person wins this award. This I understand is a part of life in the straight or gay world. However in real life the catalyst is usually knocked out of the normal circle of humans that are trying to be civil...kind...and normal humans. The huge problem here is that this person hides in the shadows and looks for any chance to start trouble. It is not hard to figure out this persons intentions ever time! And the part that really gets under my skin is that they somehow always try to make themselves look like a victim in the end! Sicko! Really sad if you ask me.
I thought when this person returned from his hiding, he would have changed and started a new view on being tactful. Yea, obvious this is not the case. So on to the next step. I just don't think the next step should be Robert needing to go through extremes for one or two people.
The trouble makers know who they are. I can only think of one who is active right now. Reason for this is because I don't read every post. I thought this post was interesting from the beginning because a person thought this was a safe place to ask a very serious question about a life changing event. They were not asking for this outcome. However, you see this type of outcome when certain posters are not hiding in the shadows and making their sick presence known.
My two cents....
Brent
Brent, I've been around here long enough to be 99% sure this thread has been a troll from the very beginning. Has "frapdoodle" been heard from since? Does anyone other than me remember this user's previous posts?
As for personal attacks on fellow members, read this thread from the beginning. The personal attacks started at #390398, and it wasn't posted by Keven.
Yes, we're all tired of hearing about how great Germany is, how far America has to go and how inhuman Keven is considered under our current laws, but none of that equates to making personal attacks on fellow members. Instead of modifying the forum I wish Robert would consider creating a simple (and standard) terms of use list, and deal with specific chronic violators.
As for personal attacks on fellow members, read this thread from the beginning. The personal attacks started at #390398, and it wasn't posted by Keven.
Yes, we're all tired of hearing about how great Germany is, how far America has to go and how inhuman Keven is considered under our current laws, but none of that equates to making personal attacks on fellow members. Instead of modifying the forum I wish Robert would consider creating a simple (and standard) terms of use list, and deal with specific chronic violators.
Hey Jeff
Jeff,
Not a bad idea about the terms of use list, but why should he? We are all adults that function in the real world and abide by laws that keep us in the flow of everyday life. Why should there be a totally different set of rules applied here on a Appliance Club? Robert does not want to baby sit. I don't want to either. I don't think you do. Who does?
This whole issue of dealing with people that don't have it all "in check" is like a dog chasing it's tail. Nothing will change this minority of species, and they will always get a charge from all of this "fuss" that has been created for them as a result of their behavior.
I guess I am a part of it also because I say what is on my mind. So in a sense I am keeping it going. However I don't forget the past issues concerning those involved with this subject, and I don't take this thread as the first occurrence / offense.
When there is an infection you do anything to get rid of it. Not Placate.
I for one thank you Jeff for speaking up. You always look on both sides of the situation. I have tried this route with this infection, and it does not work for me any longer for me.
Brent
Jeff,
Not a bad idea about the terms of use list, but why should he? We are all adults that function in the real world and abide by laws that keep us in the flow of everyday life. Why should there be a totally different set of rules applied here on a Appliance Club? Robert does not want to baby sit. I don't want to either. I don't think you do. Who does?
This whole issue of dealing with people that don't have it all "in check" is like a dog chasing it's tail. Nothing will change this minority of species, and they will always get a charge from all of this "fuss" that has been created for them as a result of their behavior.
I guess I am a part of it also because I say what is on my mind. So in a sense I am keeping it going. However I don't forget the past issues concerning those involved with this subject, and I don't take this thread as the first occurrence / offense.
When there is an infection you do anything to get rid of it. Not Placate.
I for one thank you Jeff for speaking up. You always look on both sides of the situation. I have tried this route with this infection, and it does not work for me any longer for me.
Brent
Brent, I participate in about a dozen online forums, and this is the only one that doesn't have a basic terms of use policy. It would minimize, not increase the amount of babysitting Robert needs to do. Everyone would know what kind of posts aren't acceptable, and violations would be clearly defined.
In the case of personal attacks on fellow members, I believe they should be off-limits here, like they are on every other online forum I've used in the last 20 years.
In the case of personal attacks on fellow members, I believe they should be off-limits here, like they are on every other online forum I've used in the last 20 years.
Jeff,
I totally respect you. You are out here posting a solution.
I am with you. There needs to be a change that would get us back to the way things used to be. Everyone felt comfortable posting their appliance finds, family issues and additions. Also loss. You are a visionary, and I think you are correct in many ways. However I just think that when rules are in place someone needs to police. There was a time here on the club in any forum that you did not have to worry about being attacked. Of course you have to take a chance in life and say what you feel, but you feel that it will be met with kindness. I realize that when a forum grows that you attract all kinds. I for many years never dreamed that this would happen to this club. It has however. What has become obvious to me is that when one misbehaves, it opens a dark side.
So many shy away from this. I miss so many older members that don't post any longer. There was a time that it all just felt safe. Now is does not. It is not Robert's fault in any way. It is the members fault. I am glad that many are able to speak up and say what is on their mind. I think of this site as a little city or town. You weed and seed. The terrible part is that it has been placed on Robert's shoulders. I don't think it is fair. He is the only reason we are here!
I am out on this issue and post. For several reasons. The only issue that I will state is about so many of the club members that don't post anymore. Why? They don't want to get shot down for their sincere honest post. They came to this club with open eyes and saw an outlet to talk about their passion and to find a common ground with humans with the same interest. They did not want this to become a thorn in their side.
I really miss so many of the old members that do not post anymore. We have all talked about this in many threads.
I am willing to accept anyone that is willing to change. There is a limit to this time frame however.
I am out on this thread.....
I do respect you Jeff. You seem to be a peace keeper from your writings, and I hope you stick around.
Brent
I totally respect you. You are out here posting a solution.
I am with you. There needs to be a change that would get us back to the way things used to be. Everyone felt comfortable posting their appliance finds, family issues and additions. Also loss. You are a visionary, and I think you are correct in many ways. However I just think that when rules are in place someone needs to police. There was a time here on the club in any forum that you did not have to worry about being attacked. Of course you have to take a chance in life and say what you feel, but you feel that it will be met with kindness. I realize that when a forum grows that you attract all kinds. I for many years never dreamed that this would happen to this club. It has however. What has become obvious to me is that when one misbehaves, it opens a dark side.
So many shy away from this. I miss so many older members that don't post any longer. There was a time that it all just felt safe. Now is does not. It is not Robert's fault in any way. It is the members fault. I am glad that many are able to speak up and say what is on their mind. I think of this site as a little city or town. You weed and seed. The terrible part is that it has been placed on Robert's shoulders. I don't think it is fair. He is the only reason we are here!
I am out on this issue and post. For several reasons. The only issue that I will state is about so many of the club members that don't post anymore. Why? They don't want to get shot down for their sincere honest post. They came to this club with open eyes and saw an outlet to talk about their passion and to find a common ground with humans with the same interest. They did not want this to become a thorn in their side.
I really miss so many of the old members that do not post anymore. We have all talked about this in many threads.
I am willing to accept anyone that is willing to change. There is a limit to this time frame however.
I am out on this thread.....
I do respect you Jeff. You seem to be a peace keeper from your writings, and I hope you stick around.
Brent
"Has "frapdoodle" been heard from since? Does anyone other than me remember this user's previous posts?"
He has posted in the past and his demeanor was very respectable. If you take a look at his profile, he recently turned 15 years old. I'm willing to bet that the responses probably frightened him from posting again in this thread.
He has posted in the past and his demeanor was very respectable. If you take a look at his profile, he recently turned 15 years old. I'm willing to bet that the responses probably frightened him from posting again in this thread.
qsd-dan, I think you are exactly right. When I made my very first post on this thread, I wanted Frapdoodle to know that it was all right to feel a spiritual calling. I also wanted him to know that as he went down the path to spiritual development, he might just make some major changes.We all do.
I also wanted to be sure that some of the folks on this website who regularly spew rather toxic comments on these topics----would back-off and let the boy talk! And take into account that the guy is young!
If the "shoe" was a perfect-fit------so be it.
In my first post I never once mentioned a name. (Someone who KNEW that shoe fit them "perfectly" decided to attack me directly by name).
Yet, almost everybody already had a "prime-suspect" in mind------and for good reason. Many of the e-mails I recieved indicated this and most feel the same way many of you do.
They found the debate to be very tawdry, AND agreed that there is clearly a pattern of highly toxic threads and posts by this one individual. It's just that most people preferred not to be confrontational.
Most of you have known me or of me for a long time now. You know that I am a caring person by nature. However, if you are close to me, you also know I am a staunch defender of many "under-dogs" and when it come to personal attacks I can hold my own quite fine, as well.
I would like to apologize to those by-standers who feel mortally offended. However, as you well know, there are people in this world who, when confronted by evil, will turn and face it head-on, and I am one of them. I will fight fire with fire everytime. I have no fear of fighting evil---ever. And for that, I have no apology. And if anybody attacks my friends, either here or on the street I will be equally aggressive in thier defense.
If Frapdoodle made a mistake, it was asking the opinion of so many hardened, judgemental people, on a topic that might have been better off not even discussed on our forum----especially given the fact that there are so many atheists and agnostics in this forum. Perhaps the poor kid did not realize that.
Considering the topic at hand I thought Greg did a great job, taking into account the age of Frapdoodle, and tempering his comments accordingly. A long time ago, when the Super forum was first created, PeterH and I stood up to a number of rather toxic "invaders" from another website and we were openly attacked. We both recieved some very unsavory comments and e-mail.But, we stood our ground, and let them know that if they were to "play in OUR backyard" they would have to be civil. It has gone down-hill from there.
Perhaps it would be good to just drop discussion of religion and politics altogether, and stick to the topics memtioned under the SUPER forum Headliner.
I only wish to see this website return to a place of friendly co-existence and spirited-debate-----without the personal attacks. IMO people who clearly have another agenda should go find another venue.
I also wanted to be sure that some of the folks on this website who regularly spew rather toxic comments on these topics----would back-off and let the boy talk! And take into account that the guy is young!
If the "shoe" was a perfect-fit------so be it.
In my first post I never once mentioned a name. (Someone who KNEW that shoe fit them "perfectly" decided to attack me directly by name).
Yet, almost everybody already had a "prime-suspect" in mind------and for good reason. Many of the e-mails I recieved indicated this and most feel the same way many of you do.
They found the debate to be very tawdry, AND agreed that there is clearly a pattern of highly toxic threads and posts by this one individual. It's just that most people preferred not to be confrontational.
Most of you have known me or of me for a long time now. You know that I am a caring person by nature. However, if you are close to me, you also know I am a staunch defender of many "under-dogs" and when it come to personal attacks I can hold my own quite fine, as well.
I would like to apologize to those by-standers who feel mortally offended. However, as you well know, there are people in this world who, when confronted by evil, will turn and face it head-on, and I am one of them. I will fight fire with fire everytime. I have no fear of fighting evil---ever. And for that, I have no apology. And if anybody attacks my friends, either here or on the street I will be equally aggressive in thier defense.
If Frapdoodle made a mistake, it was asking the opinion of so many hardened, judgemental people, on a topic that might have been better off not even discussed on our forum----especially given the fact that there are so many atheists and agnostics in this forum. Perhaps the poor kid did not realize that.
Considering the topic at hand I thought Greg did a great job, taking into account the age of Frapdoodle, and tempering his comments accordingly. A long time ago, when the Super forum was first created, PeterH and I stood up to a number of rather toxic "invaders" from another website and we were openly attacked. We both recieved some very unsavory comments and e-mail.But, we stood our ground, and let them know that if they were to "play in OUR backyard" they would have to be civil. It has gone down-hill from there.
Perhaps it would be good to just drop discussion of religion and politics altogether, and stick to the topics memtioned under the SUPER forum Headliner.
I only wish to see this website return to a place of friendly co-existence and spirited-debate-----without the personal attacks. IMO people who clearly have another agenda should go find another venue.
> If Frapdoodle made a mistake, it was asking the opinion of so many hardened, judgemental people, on a topic that might have been better off not even discussed on our forum----especially given the fact that there are so many atheists and agnostics in this forum. Perhaps the poor kid did not realize that. <
Steve, that is my exact point, and that's why I made the troll charge. This person knew who his audience was, and the response it would generate. It's like someone going into a Catholic forum and saying, "I think I'm gay. What advice do you have?" Give me a break. This person even made it a point to capitalize the troll. "I'd ask the Missionaries, But This Is Easier".
As for being hardened and judgmental, that's an ironic charge, considering what the LDS is doing to our community. We're not the ones who are trying to take away their basic civil rights.
Steve, that is my exact point, and that's why I made the troll charge. This person knew who his audience was, and the response it would generate. It's like someone going into a Catholic forum and saying, "I think I'm gay. What advice do you have?" Give me a break. This person even made it a point to capitalize the troll. "I'd ask the Missionaries, But This Is Easier".
As for being hardened and judgmental, that's an ironic charge, considering what the LDS is doing to our community. We're not the ones who are trying to take away their basic civil rights.
Robert, in vBulletin there is (or at least was) an Ignore User option when reading posts. Would that be easier to code? I think it might be a more comprehensive fix (also less susceptible to misuse/abuse).
Actually no, in order to implement that feature I would have to write a complete restructure of the posting system which I estimate to be between 60 and 80 hours. You see one of the reasons that this discussion group software runs so fast is that all the cgi processing happens during the "Post this to Discuss-o-Mat" phase. After that one can easily read the pre-saved html file that loads almost instantly. If I make that change, now when someone clicks on a thread to read the cgi system would have to process that entire file by first opening a database of the user to see who they've personally blocked, then reading the entire file into memory stripping out the posts that they want to "ignore", reassemble the html page and send it to the user. In longer posts this is going to slow the system down. I could break the longer posts into separate pages, but then that would slow down the end user the interface. Personally I love have fast this system provides data to the end user, I hardly ever see discussion group forums that run as fast as this one. Some are downright ridiculously slow.
Besides to be honest we already have the "ignore user" feature built into our heads, I know I use it on occasion and scroll right past a select few users.
Implementing the "Mark as offensive" code would be much easier and would make people think twice before posting something they really shouldn't. I think I'll confidentially record who is marking what offensive (as well as the content of what was deleted) and if I see a pattern of abuse I will stop the system from counting their Marks (in the background and they will never even know it). Also I can always restore something that I think shouldn't have been marked offensive. With as high usage as this place is if something racist or homophobic gets posted, it would be easy to get seven or ten members to mark it offensive long before I even have a chance to delete it.
Actually no, in order to implement that feature I would have to write a complete restructure of the posting system which I estimate to be between 60 and 80 hours. You see one of the reasons that this discussion group software runs so fast is that all the cgi processing happens during the "Post this to Discuss-o-Mat" phase. After that one can easily read the pre-saved html file that loads almost instantly. If I make that change, now when someone clicks on a thread to read the cgi system would have to process that entire file by first opening a database of the user to see who they've personally blocked, then reading the entire file into memory stripping out the posts that they want to "ignore", reassemble the html page and send it to the user. In longer posts this is going to slow the system down. I could break the longer posts into separate pages, but then that would slow down the end user the interface. Personally I love have fast this system provides data to the end user, I hardly ever see discussion group forums that run as fast as this one. Some are downright ridiculously slow.
Besides to be honest we already have the "ignore user" feature built into our heads, I know I use it on occasion and scroll right past a select few users.
Implementing the "Mark as offensive" code would be much easier and would make people think twice before posting something they really shouldn't. I think I'll confidentially record who is marking what offensive (as well as the content of what was deleted) and if I see a pattern of abuse I will stop the system from counting their Marks (in the background and they will never even know it). Also I can always restore something that I think shouldn't have been marked offensive. With as high usage as this place is if something racist or homophobic gets posted, it would be easy to get seven or ten members to mark it offensive long before I even have a chance to delete it.
> Besides to be honest we already have the "ignore user" feature built into our heads, I know I use it on occasion and scroll right past a select few users. <
Absolutely correct, and a very good point.
Have you considered posting a basic AUP/TOS for the forums? It would help members know in advance what's expected of them.
Absolutely correct, and a very good point.
Have you considered posting a basic AUP/TOS for the forums? It would help members know in advance what's expected of them.
Have you considered posting a basic AUP/TOS for the forums?
We had it in the old applianceville forum and it didn't make any difference. People are going to post what they want with or without and specific "rules". I could certainly write something up but having a First Responder system would probably work better.
We had it in the old applianceville forum and it didn't make any difference. People are going to post what they want with or without and specific "rules". I could certainly write something up but having a First Responder system would probably work better.
OFF TOPIC
Robert, my opinion is that everything is OK.
We can just ignore the posts we don't want to read.
But, if you're open for sugestions, a "delete post" button would be appreciated.
Many times I make a grammar os spelling mistake and I notice only after I confirm the post.
the only option I have is post a note immediatelly after that.
The delete button would be perfect when it happens. Ctrl C -delete post - Ctrl V - make the corrections - post.
What's your opinon about it?
Robert, my opinion is that everything is OK.
We can just ignore the posts we don't want to read.
But, if you're open for sugestions, a "delete post" button would be appreciated.
Many times I make a grammar os spelling mistake and I notice only after I confirm the post.
the only option I have is post a note immediatelly after that.
The delete button would be perfect when it happens. Ctrl C -delete post - Ctrl V - make the corrections - post.
What's your opinon about it?
There but for the grace of God
When I was 11 my mom packed up five kids and left her husband of 16 years. We travelled cross country by bus from New England to California in three days.
We were raised in a fairly liberal Congregationalist church in New England. The bus stopped for a few hours in Salt Lake City, and my mom took the opportunity to investigate stopping our journey there and settling in with the Mormons.
I believe that once she learned what her status would have been as a single mom in a Mormon culture, she changed her mind very quickly. But she always praised the place for being "so clean", lol.
Instead we wound up in San Francisco which is probably about as far, culturally speaking, from Salt Lake City as any place in America. I got to experience the Haight up close and personal before, during, and after the Summer of Love. Can't say I would have had that opportunity in Brigham Young's promised land.
Since then I did about five years of close work with a well known Utah software company. I got to know more than a few Mormons fairly well. While they mostly all seemed like decent people, a few were definite liars and cheats. And a few were quite hypocritical about their religion. They followed all the rules while they were in Utah, but as soon as they were out of state they considered it OK to do many of the things that their religion otherwise banned.
Socially, I found Utah to be quite boring. The most entertaining experience was watching the huge people chow down at one of the many all-you-can-eat buffet restaurants.
When I was 11 my mom packed up five kids and left her husband of 16 years. We travelled cross country by bus from New England to California in three days.
We were raised in a fairly liberal Congregationalist church in New England. The bus stopped for a few hours in Salt Lake City, and my mom took the opportunity to investigate stopping our journey there and settling in with the Mormons.
I believe that once she learned what her status would have been as a single mom in a Mormon culture, she changed her mind very quickly. But she always praised the place for being "so clean", lol.
Instead we wound up in San Francisco which is probably about as far, culturally speaking, from Salt Lake City as any place in America. I got to experience the Haight up close and personal before, during, and after the Summer of Love. Can't say I would have had that opportunity in Brigham Young's promised land.
Since then I did about five years of close work with a well known Utah software company. I got to know more than a few Mormons fairly well. While they mostly all seemed like decent people, a few were definite liars and cheats. And a few were quite hypocritical about their religion. They followed all the rules while they were in Utah, but as soon as they were out of state they considered it OK to do many of the things that their religion otherwise banned.
Socially, I found Utah to be quite boring. The most entertaining experience was watching the huge people chow down at one of the many all-you-can-eat buffet restaurants.
Our one single rule was that everyone treat each other the way they would wish to be treated themselves. As Robert said, it didn't make a whole lot of difference.
Love your story, Rich. My mother had an opportunity to take a state job in Sacramento in 1969 when she left my father but passed on it to stay closer to her parents in Nebraska. I can understand what it must have been like for a single mother back then, being shunned by much of society, unable to get credit, etc. what a hard life to live. I have often wondered what growing up in California would have been like rather than here.
Love your story, Rich. My mother had an opportunity to take a state job in Sacramento in 1969 when she left my father but passed on it to stay closer to her parents in Nebraska. I can understand what it must have been like for a single mother back then, being shunned by much of society, unable to get credit, etc. what a hard life to live. I have often wondered what growing up in California would have been like rather than here.
Tough Decisions for Parents
I grew up in a pro-union (my dad was a union organizer), pro-civil rights and solidly yellow-dog Democratic town. When I was seven, it became clear to my parents that the town's one and only serious employer, the steel industry, was terminally ill and they needed to get out before tens of thousands of others were looking for jobs.
First they tried Colorado Springs, but the company my dad worked for there frowned upon married women working and my mom's reputation for supporting full civil-rights, including inter-racial marriage for Negroes meant there was no single church in the town which would accept them.
LA, Glasgow (Scotland) (relatives there) and San Francisco all were on their short list.
Then, within one month of each other, one grandparent of each of my parents became chronically ill with terminal illnesses. So we ended up in Fort Collins. Got the shit kicked out of me the first week in school for being a N---lover...got kicked out of Sunday School the second Sunday for saying Jesus was Jewish.
Yee-Haw. Our childhoods surely do play a role in who we become as adults.
My parents did what they had to do to provide us with a roof over our heads, decent educations and to fulfill their responsibilities to their parents. Not their first, second or third choice, but you that's what being an adult is all about. I honor them for that.
Greg, are things better for people in Nebraska today? I only know two people there at all, one personally, who is actively involved in the State's Republican party, small business end and the other is you.
I grew up in a pro-union (my dad was a union organizer), pro-civil rights and solidly yellow-dog Democratic town. When I was seven, it became clear to my parents that the town's one and only serious employer, the steel industry, was terminally ill and they needed to get out before tens of thousands of others were looking for jobs.
First they tried Colorado Springs, but the company my dad worked for there frowned upon married women working and my mom's reputation for supporting full civil-rights, including inter-racial marriage for Negroes meant there was no single church in the town which would accept them.
LA, Glasgow (Scotland) (relatives there) and San Francisco all were on their short list.
Then, within one month of each other, one grandparent of each of my parents became chronically ill with terminal illnesses. So we ended up in Fort Collins. Got the shit kicked out of me the first week in school for being a N---lover...got kicked out of Sunday School the second Sunday for saying Jesus was Jewish.
Yee-Haw. Our childhoods surely do play a role in who we become as adults.
My parents did what they had to do to provide us with a roof over our heads, decent educations and to fulfill their responsibilities to their parents. Not their first, second or third choice, but you that's what being an adult is all about. I honor them for that.
Greg, are things better for people in Nebraska today? I only know two people there at all, one personally, who is actively involved in the State's Republican party, small business end and the other is you.
toggleswitch2
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5,000
His given name was Immanuel.
.
~Got kicked out of Sunday School the second Sunday for saying Jesus was Jewish.
Surely, you jest?!?
Anyone have any clue what January first is on the Christian "calendar" of holidays?
I'll give you an hint; it's eight days after the birth.
.
~Got kicked out of Sunday School the second Sunday for saying Jesus was Jewish.
Surely, you jest?!?
Anyone have any clue what January first is on the Christian "calendar" of holidays?
I'll give you an hint; it's eight days after the birth.
Toggles,
No, I really was. Steve, your branch of Christianity and your political views are deeply rooted in literacy and reflected, considered, ordered thought.
This is not the basis for those views in many areas of the country. Our church back home participated in a rolling visitation program by which our Sunday school classes visited other churches and the local (Conservative, obviously) Jewish community also made us welcome and participated, too. (I suspect one look at the frothing at the mouth folks did more to help explain the difference between Judaism's emphasis on learning and studying to approach God's justice as opposed to 'knowing in your heart we're right' than anything else.
The AME was involved, as well (Negroes were still segregated, tho' I am proud to know that my parents' vote on our old church's councils contributed to lifting this).
When we moved to the Fort Collins of my youth, the signs were still up at the town boundaries that no, um, 'non-white' people were to be in town after sunset. John 23rd (Nomen est omen) got a cross burned on their lawn for their Father saying MLK Jr.'s death was a national tragedy.
Today, things are much better - but much of the hurt and anger you see arise in comments around the Christian religion here arise from these vastly differing perspectives. Were I, for instance, to note the other significance of the 8th day, you can be 100% certain someone would be genuinely offended and certain I did so just to mock their beliefs.
No, I really was. Steve, your branch of Christianity and your political views are deeply rooted in literacy and reflected, considered, ordered thought.
This is not the basis for those views in many areas of the country. Our church back home participated in a rolling visitation program by which our Sunday school classes visited other churches and the local (Conservative, obviously) Jewish community also made us welcome and participated, too. (I suspect one look at the frothing at the mouth folks did more to help explain the difference between Judaism's emphasis on learning and studying to approach God's justice as opposed to 'knowing in your heart we're right' than anything else.
The AME was involved, as well (Negroes were still segregated, tho' I am proud to know that my parents' vote on our old church's councils contributed to lifting this).
When we moved to the Fort Collins of my youth, the signs were still up at the town boundaries that no, um, 'non-white' people were to be in town after sunset. John 23rd (Nomen est omen) got a cross burned on their lawn for their Father saying MLK Jr.'s death was a national tragedy.
Today, things are much better - but much of the hurt and anger you see arise in comments around the Christian religion here arise from these vastly differing perspectives. Were I, for instance, to note the other significance of the 8th day, you can be 100% certain someone would be genuinely offended and certain I did so just to mock their beliefs.
toggleswitch2
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 23, 2008
- Messages
- 5,000
~No, I really was. Steve, your branch of Christianity and your political views are deeply rooted in literacy and reflected, considered, ordered thought.
Thank you kindly, sir. I try not to show my political views, in that thre is no reason to dicuss them here.
We are all a product of our zip(postal) code, our language, our religion, our culture and our ethnic roots. The trick is to see WHY people think the way they do and rejoice when we find those few that can stretch out past their "limitations".
All kidding aside and no offense intended to anyone, but therir was a mental health proifessional on TV the other day that was saying 1 of 4 adults has a mental illness. Call it what you will, but I try to ascribe quirks (read: twistedness) as character and personality. If everyone were perfect, life would be boring and there would be no reason to live(in that it is said that one lives to learn one's spirtual lessons).
Don't know if anyone has noticed but I have mellowed on this site quite a bit. My father probably has Asperger's and since the apple (who you callin' a fruit, BITCH? *LOL*)doesn't fall far from the tree, I always consider the possibility that I too may have it to some degree. As such, who am I to criricize anyone's elses "quirks" ?
I work hard on editing myself so that I don't appear to be coming from a place of judgement when I write. Problem with writings is that TONE or INTENT doesnt convey. And one need to knoe me to understand my sens of irony and humor. (It's the left-handed thing, too!)
I wish us all light, love, peace and blessings. And this is not directed and anyone in particluar. Letting go of past hurts and infractions only helps the holder of such feelings heal.
Life is so short. Who did what to whom and how they will retaliate is not my game. I just try to see the joy in living each day.
Soryy am I pontificationg again on a Sunday? I missed my calling!
I hold nothing against anyone, even those who have wronged me PURPOSELY on this site. And believe me darlings, it all comes out in the wash!
Thank you kindly, sir. I try not to show my political views, in that thre is no reason to dicuss them here.
We are all a product of our zip(postal) code, our language, our religion, our culture and our ethnic roots. The trick is to see WHY people think the way they do and rejoice when we find those few that can stretch out past their "limitations".
All kidding aside and no offense intended to anyone, but therir was a mental health proifessional on TV the other day that was saying 1 of 4 adults has a mental illness. Call it what you will, but I try to ascribe quirks (read: twistedness) as character and personality. If everyone were perfect, life would be boring and there would be no reason to live(in that it is said that one lives to learn one's spirtual lessons).
Don't know if anyone has noticed but I have mellowed on this site quite a bit. My father probably has Asperger's and since the apple (who you callin' a fruit, BITCH? *LOL*)doesn't fall far from the tree, I always consider the possibility that I too may have it to some degree. As such, who am I to criricize anyone's elses "quirks" ?
I work hard on editing myself so that I don't appear to be coming from a place of judgement when I write. Problem with writings is that TONE or INTENT doesnt convey. And one need to knoe me to understand my sens of irony and humor. (It's the left-handed thing, too!)
I wish us all light, love, peace and blessings. And this is not directed and anyone in particluar. Letting go of past hurts and infractions only helps the holder of such feelings heal.
Life is so short. Who did what to whom and how they will retaliate is not my game. I just try to see the joy in living each day.
Soryy am I pontificationg again on a Sunday? I missed my calling!
I hold nothing against anyone, even those who have wronged me PURPOSELY on this site. And believe me darlings, it all comes out in the wash!
