OT: Will a loan be enough to turn GM around?

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I'm no fan of GM, Ford, and Chrysler . . .

but it is a huge shame to spend billions of dollars to bail out the finance industry and not spend a nickel on smokestack industries like automakers. Do they need some attitude and management changes? You bet, but the very same thing can be said for the finance industry. It shouldn't be forgotten that American industry was once the envy of the world, and that American carmakers in many respects tought the world how to make and market cars. I've mostly always driven European cars because I prefer smaller cars with manual transmissions and sharp handling chassis, something Detroit mostly ignores. So, I'm not writing as a fan-boy for their American made products, but I do know a lot about automotive history and could make a big list of advances which came from GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

Each year, there are fewer and fewer companies here that manufacture anything, and the message we receive is that it is natural that manufacturing will move to China and India while we concentrate on information technology and financial products. That's all fine except many of those jobs don't pay ordinary workers well, and from an ecological standpoint it makes no sense to transport cars half way around the world if you don't have to. Ford and GM have plenty of good relevant products, they just don't make them here in the US. I say give them a chance, but attach enough strings so that when a profit is made the Treasury gets paid back for the loans.

For many of us there is just no way mass transit will ever be able to provide the flexibility we need to do our jobs and so we'll be buying cars from someone. It would be a pleasure to see some relevant cars in GM, Ford, and Chrysler showrooms instead of a bunch of big over-powered V8 sedans and humongous SUVs. American quality isn't uniformly bad; my sister has a Mazda truck built by Ford in New Jersey. It's nothing but a Ford Ranger with a Mazda badge and it's been very nearly 100% reliable for four years. I wish I could say the same for my VW TDI diesel!
 
Big Three will get their money, the Democrats are not keen to have potentially thousands out of work on their hands. However if one looks carefully, Mr. Obama is keeping a low profile in this matter and almost totally out of it.

Democrats will do the bail out and hope it "works", and or things on the ground economy wise improve, or they will have to go with plan "B".

The 500lb gorilla in the room, and something everyone knows but says nothing about, is that any sort of government action merely prolongs what must happen. If Congress doles out funds, and one or more of these automakers goes into bankruptcy and or comes back in the spring, with their hands out, it is not going to look good for the Democrats,or Mr. Obama. This time they cannot blame GWB.

Barney Frank is itching to turn the US into Soviet Russia, so either way something is going to get done.

L.
 
Meh

I think the Dems have done the right thing so far. They've demanded a loan application, almost a business plan, from the Big Three to delineate just exactly what they are going to do to help prevent another return for more cash.

I think Ford and Chrysler might be able to turn around and made good on the loans. I don't know about GM. So big it can't get out of its own way.

The flap over the private jets was well taken, as well. These execs seem to live in a dream world where it's luxury and perks as usual as they lay off thousands of workers who may lose their homes and more.

As for Barney Frank wanting to turn America into Soviet Russia. A bigger load of BS never has been stated.
 
> As for Barney Frank wanting to turn America into Soviet Russia. A bigger load of BS never has been stated. <

Amen. After 2000, when Foreclosure Phil Gramm successfully gutted virtually all government oversight in the investment services industry, Barney Frank tried for 6+ years to get this regulation reinstated. By all accounts, doing so would have certainly prevented this housing/subprime catastrophe. But a Republican-led U.S. House (Gingrich, Armey, Delay etc) consistently vetoed Frank's efforts.

When Democrats regained control of the House in January 2007, it was one of the first things they did. By May 2007 these regulations were back in place, but the damage had already been done.
 
let them eat sh**t and die!

They have made their own cars let them drive it off the cliff. With their money hungry big bosses in them and the unions in the backseat .. So long assholes!
 
Please don't give money to Bullies... and... Does anyone

One thing I am struck by and other people noticing is the conduct of the domestic auto companies. If they were a person they would be considered a bully. It's not just a matter of the plane rides to Washington, it is the conduct of the companies through American history:
20's - 30'2: Plot to destroy transit systems, they had something to do with it, making America more car dependent.
60's: Resist adding any safety features to cars that could have saved a lot of lives and lessened injuries.
70's: Resist adding emission control.
80's, 90's: Build gas guzzling SUVs, resist building anything efficient, making us more vulnerable to the International Bully, the oil companies and the mid eastern countries who don't like us much.

Japanese and European cars have to meet the same emission and safety standards, yet that did not seem to be a problem for them.

Yet, people continued to buy becuase they believed it when The Bully said it was unpatriotic to buy anything but an American car - and only low lifes take a bus!

Now the threat is give us money or people will lose their jobs. Meanwhile, think about it, does anyone actually WANT to work on an assembly line? It would drive me crazy! People might actually rise to the occasion and figure out what they really want to do and get careers in a job that they really like after all.

I read a post of how a sharecropper from the South came up to Detroit to work on an assembly line, and how he ended up with a large family and big expenses and eventually ended up in an "insane asylum" this was back in hte early 20th century. He missed the fresh air and had to be stuck on an assembly line all day. It sounds like he would have been a lot happier if he had stayed a farmer, I know I would.

The high union wages also enabled many of these workers to have too-large families, where money is never enough and life is always a struggle. I just hope that people today would know better than to fall into that trap: WOrk, work, work, all the time, to drive a big truck, so you feel miserable, so you go to the bar, then have another kid, so you work, work, work, all the time, to go to the bar,------ Stop the cycle!

Congress, it is time to stand up to the National Bully and say no to him - People will rise to the occasion.
 
Imagine if, tomorrow, we stopped trade with all other countries on Earth. I mean everything. This is just a hypothetical, I'm not saying we should do it.

Can anyone claim the U.S. does not have the capability to feed, clothe and house our population? Would we drop dead, rather than make our own shoes and pick our own lettuce?

The Great Depression taught us a lesson I think we've forgotten and need to relearn. The sooner we as a people walk away from our Blackberrys, our microwave ovens and our prostitution to the corporate state, and rediscover what's really important in life, the better IMO.
 
Can anyone claim the U.S. does not have the capability to fe

Actually, yes such claims have been made, by some very respected persons, and are for the most part true.

From the collapse of family farms to massive shifting of various manufacturing overseas (from garments to widgets), the United States produces much less than it did say before WWII. Just in the realm of produce much of what we consume, especially out of season fruits and veggies are imported.

Just look at what happened at the start of WWII, all manner and number of factories, from laundry appliance builders to steam locomotive shops all switched to "war time production", and made items for the war effort. Look around places like the Mid-West,Mid-Atlantic and Northeast states and you will plainly see those factories are long gone.

Even for plants still located in the United States, many parts are supplied from overseas, including things for such "American built" products like Boeing planes.

While in theory it all could be put back together, but it is much easier to turn a factory over to other production, versus building a new one from scratch. Farmland in many areas, has been either allowed to go fallow, or turned over for development. Either way farming and or raising livestock is not easy, it's not like you can move persons from one area, give them land and have them go at it... Farming is like anything else, one has to know what one is doing.

Point of all this palaver is that much of the world was sold a bill of goods, that says because all our economies are so inter-related, war and such isn't possible because each needs the other. Without a stable manufacturing and farming base, a country can hardly turn out war machines, much less feed it's military (and everyone else for that matter), and thus wage a war.
 
I believe the USA is a net exporter of agricultural products. We most certainly can feed ourselves.

The importation of out-of-season fruits and vegetables is simply for the convenience of those who can afford the higher prices involved. Smart people buy produce grown locally - it has a lower carbon footprint because it doesn't have to be transported as far as, say, grapes grown in Argentina in February.

The demise of the family farm has to do with subsidies and taxes that favor large agribusinesses. The outrage is that these agribusinesses use front men to act as small farmers so that they can collect subsidies intended to preserve smaller farms. Never underestimate the ability of a large corporation to find and exploit any loophole no matter how tight it is. The great ripoff of California electricity consumers by Enron et al in 2000 should be ample notice of that trait.

Farming IS hard work but so is manufacturing. I happen to work in light manufacturing, and I am a bit dismayed when I see comments such as "who would want to work on an assembly line, anyway". I've worked also in high tech (IT) and biotech, and I can tell you that these fields have more than their share of tedious and boring, repetitive tasks. Those with the intellectual ability usually are able to rise to levels where the work is more mentally engaging, but there are those among us who prefer to just do the same thing over and over so that they can go home at the end of the day and not think about it, but enjoy their homes, families, friends, etc. We may have outsourced a lot of the tedium to other countries, but automation and shipping costs tends to return it to our shores in different forms and methods.

I recall a lot of talk during the 70's and 80's about the advantages that industries in Japan and Europe had over US industries because the devastation of WWII had necessitated the complete rebuilding of their industrial bases. This meant that their newer factories used more modern technologies and therefore were cheaper to operate and produced better products than our older factories. Well, there's a saying that when you're handed a lemon, make lemonade. Sure, we've exported a lot of our older technology to China and elsewhere. But if we have a need to ramp up our own industrial base, it can be with newer, more modern technologies and factories, and that may well just give us an edge in future international trade. This might be wishful thinking but it's something that may well pan out.
 
As far as the US automakers are at this point---I am for letting them go--as one other Applianceville member put it-"they made their bad-now they get to sleep on it!"Just yesterday morning while going home from my mid shift was listening to the NPR newscast-and they announced that Representitives from GM where FLYING to DC on THEIR
private planes to try to get the 25BILLION dollar loan from the TAXPAYERS.Hell if you are flying to DC on your own planes--you don't need that loan.Now if they showed up some other way-Lets see DRIVE one of your NEW GM Hybrids to DC to try to appeal for your loan maybe you might get better attention.While reading one of my magazines-noticed that GM is really stepping up on building Hybrid vehicles.Better now than never.You can now get an Escalade Hybrid that can get to 20MPG-a luxury full sized SUV-again the SUV platform.For so many years the big three have been building cars that were basically OBSELETE compared to what the Asian and European car builders were producing.So far don't see Chrysler trying to build Hybrid cars.They are still building their outdated junk.Yes times are tough-but companies have to ADAPT to the times to survive.Yes Toyota is getting hit too-A good freind of mine that works at the local Toyota dealer in Greenville was saying NOT ONE customer has walked into the store to shop for a car.They come in to have maintenance done on their present cars.So he hasn't gotten any commision pay.Two car dealers in my area have shut down-one in Rocky Mount area-and another in Kinston.about 60 jobs lost to each shutdown.
Tobacco farming is really slowed in my area-used to be the prime tobacco growing area.Now only one crop-Years ago saw THREE crops harvested per season.Many tobacco farmers in my area are growing Hay,soybeans,and peanuts.And sometimes corn.You see more of those than the "golden leaf"I don't smoke-but the tobacco was the major industry in this area.the leaf was grown and dried here-auctioned-then shipped to the cigarette factories in Richmond.And with droughts out here from the year before-farming here has been tough.Also textile plants here have shut down-textiles was another MAJOR industry in the South.I knew someone that did maintenance on the weaving equipmwent-most of it was 100Years old-but had new modern PLC and VFD motor drives.He was saying the old textile equipment was not that difficult to maintain-they fabricated their own parts!Would have been interesting.And oh yes much cotton is grown out here.The South has the proper climate conditions for cotton crops.After harvest you see cotton fibers blowing in the fall winds.The cotton is harvested with machines-no more hand picking.Its an interesting operation to watch.same with the tobacco.Yes as one other Applianceville member pointed out-we have exported manufacturing equipment abroad-the old equipment was "recycled" by selling it and shipping to a company overseas.Then that older equipment is used to make goods shipped to US!!I have seen and heard of this as US companies upgrade equipment-they sell the old and ship it to someone else.That someone else could be a factory overseas.I just hope Obama can turn our manufacturing and other industries around-but HUGE loans at the taxpayer expense is not the answer.I think if GM and other companies get those loans they will just squander the money and go from there.And then beg for more.I think its time to call the "bigshots" that operate these places to the table!Either operate your company properly or--GO UNDER!
 
The scary thing is,

back a few years ago - I think it was in 2005 - I posted a comment that the American decision to forgo value added production was a serious mistake, I got jumped on and torn to shreds by the so-called experts who knew the post-industrial economy was America's one and only future.

The US is capable of anything, but it will require some serious government intervention in order to jump start some of the necessary programs.

For one thing, the bureaucratic hurdles to starting a new business have to be re-evaluated. Those businesses which would contribute to employment and reduce American dependency on foreign goods should be forced. Those businesses which take every tax credit they can, export jobs and profits abroad should be discouraged.

Of course, this is the exact opposite of the Laffer Curve mentality which, for decades, has replaced solid economics in the republican circles.

A while back, there was a serious fight in Fort Collins, Colorado. Influential people (read rich republicans) were upset because some thrifty folks (read poor republicans) who, technically, lived within the city limits were, gasp!, home farming. A few chickens, a pig or two, a milch cow...

Well, the whole fight ended up (as always) in court, finally the city decided, what the hell - if people whose great-great-great grandparents had homesteaded wanted to continue to raise their own food and make a few bucks on the side, the world would not end.

Reason and cooperation are possible, but you have to be willing to think socially to achieve them. This "I've got mine, fcuk you' mentality of the last years isn't getting us anywhere.

Personally, loathsome as I find the thought, there is no way around bailing out the GM. By refusing to bail out Lehmann Brothers, shrub made a bad situation worse. Let GM die and things may settle into a permanent slough of despondency.
 
I was also somewhat mystified by all the economic experts of the 90's who swore up and down that America's future was as a "service economy". Very short sighted, I thought. Someone has to make the stuff we live in, drive, eat, wear, etc. Why send all those dollars overseas when we have plenty of workers here to make those things? And the whole "service economy" argument went out of the window as soon as companies found they could outsource a lot of that service to nations like India. This is one reason why, after getting laid off IT jobs twice in two years, I went to vocational school and got trained to be a machinist so I could actually make useful tangible things. A lot of my work has been prototype parts - stuff that is simply not economic to outsource overseas because of the distances, time lag, etc.

If we were a pure service economy then we'd be like a nation of salesmen - all ready to "service" each other... a quick downward spiral if you ask me.

With regard to Chrysler - they've been working on various fuel efficient technologies for years. For a while it was gasoline fed fuel cell electric vehicle. Now I read that they are working on a plug-in hybrid in concert with some other companies. We'll see if they actually manage to produce something before they go under. However I agree that Chrysler has lagged in that field - they've relied too heavily on their Jeeps and minivans and big cars, and they have nothing that will compete even with the Ford Focus in terms of fuel economy and fun driving. Their closest entry is the Caliber which is routinely panned as gawd awful in auto and consumer magazines. It's embarrassing.
 
Sorry about what I said, Rich...

I just feel that if I had to work on an assembly line with 1 part in 1 place I would go crazy after about half an hour, wouldn't you? An auto plant does not seem like a very social or friendly place and you work there only for the money.

I think that some people get sucked into the cycle where they are so dependent on a factory and then have a hard time doing something else if it closes:

First you graduate from high school and marry your high school sweetheart and then go work at "the Ford plant" doing a repetitive job you can't stand, so you go to the bar to get drunk and forget it, then next thing you know, your wife is pregnant, so you work, work, work, don't forget to get drunk at the bar, now you buy an SUV to cheer yourself up, but now there is another kid, so you work, work, and then the next thing you know you have too many kids and the factory closes and all you did was work in a factory,trying to keep from going nuts, and have this big family and what have you done with your life? It just sounds so miserable!
 
No problem

Oh, I don't know. I guess I haven't worked an assembly line per se. What repetitive work I've done has been on small lots. And much of my work has been done programming the machines and making one-off prototypes. With the multiple lots, one gets into a certain rhythm - I regard it similar in feeling to playing music - so the work is not all that bad. I suspect those who do very well at it may eventually be promoted to other more challenging work. Those who are just average at it probably wind up doing it for the rest of their time for that employer.

As far as work driving one to drink - there are alcoholics in most every type of work. Lawyers are notorious drunks and they seldom get within a city block of an assembly line. And some people regard having a big family as life's goal in the first place.
 
I'm Sorry

That comment regarding factory work, sounds like something out of the turn of the century.

Has it ever occured to you that persons actually preferred and or sought out "factory" work for various reasons? Not everyone can or even should take a degree from college, and certianly there is something to be said for "working" in terms of producing something tangible, rather than pushing paper, or some other such means of employment.

Many persons in factory and or "union" towns sought those positons as it was all some knew (with several generations often having worked for the same company), and if it was good enough for their parents, grand-parents and so forth, it was good enough for them.

Problem is times have changed, men and women looked at their parents lives and thought they would be fine as well, working for the same company, are now in for some shocks.

As for producing children and martial troubles, that can hardly be blamed on factory work. There are all sort and manner of persons in "jobs" they perhaps hate and or even despise, but stay because of obligations. Family planning is easily available to most, especially those with good health insurance. What normally happens is persons have children with certain economic expectations in mind, and sadly when things do not work out the children are still there. However, that is nothing new either, nor restricted to the working classes.

Yes, factory work isn't for everyone, but then neither is being a nurse, or fireman. There are men and women out there who like doing things with their hands, sadly for the United States, there are fewer and fewer places left that provide that sort of work.
 
Maybe I feel this way becuase my father, who was a dentist at the VA hospital, did work in a steel mill (Allegheny Ludlum, one of the few that is still around) and did not want that to be his career or our career, and did not want any of us taking a job where we might lose a finger. That, and when you hear someone talk about their factory job on the news you hear "I got 4 kids and another one on the way" or something like that. They never give any other reason (like they like the work they do or the people they work with, or anything like that) It has to be for the money and the benefits becuase of the too-large family.

Sometimes I wonder if the reason college is promoted is to prevent these early marriages where couples have a lot of kids for at least four years. I guess I am saying that people should not create such large expenses in the first place, but I must be soooo mean to suggest that!.

As for being a nurse, I was in school for nursing and those courses are Hard and nurses "eat their young". As for a fireman, I tell them I'm just too much of a fraidy cat when they try to recruit me!
 
By Jove, I've Got It!

Here is exactly what Congress needs to stipulate before giving General Motors a lifesaving loan.

As part of the deal, General Motors must agree to a business plan that includes repurchasing the Frigidaire line of appliances, and retooling to begin making the Unimatic 1140 again!

It's a win-win!

We should all write our Congressmen and Congresswomen to make sure this happens!

Laundress, I'm depending on you to twist Barney Frank's fat little arm!
 
Seems to me

that without people willing to do manual and repetitive labor, a lot of us would be up shit creek without a paddle.

There is a sign on the cupboards in our little Teeküche, right off the faculty lounge which translates roughly:

You're smart enough to teach them how to build one, but can you use one? Load the damn dishwasher! Your mama stopped cleaning up after you 20 years ago!

Unfortunately, real income for the middle class has declined over the last years (hint: under us socialist-fascist-marxist-pinko-communists both employment and income rose). That is the biggest cause of trouble, not heterosexuals having children. Oh, well, that and the fact that idiots of both parties actively contributed to shipping value addition jobs overseas. Bill Clinton's NAFTA shit was a big mistake, but the trend was already underway.

Let's hope Obama and Co. succeed in bringing some common sense back into the economy.

Still can't understand, tho', how any blue collar worker can vote republican. Talk about voting against your interests...
 
You know the Chinese have a popular curse: "May you be born in interesting times."

From their perspective, menial labor is where it's at, and they got the long end of the stick in this trade with the West. I've known dozens of people who were not only happy doing the exact same menial jobs (some of them were assembly line workers) for 40 or 50 years, they thrived from it.
 
I am another one that feels the US isn't really and never will be ready for a service economy.The short sided economists that thought of this forgot---You need the higher paying manufacturing,management jobs to SUPPORT the service ones!I don't know what catagory my job is-running and repairing shortwave transmitters-we use them to broadcast to other parts of the world.Something is always going wrong-some of these rigs are 60,40,and 20 years old.Just replaced a blower motor that smoked up the place in one.And the new motor was made in Mexico!Also keep in mind that the US has been building things for OVER 200years!Should we give that up-FOOLISH if we do!
The factory and building jobs are good for those people that like to build and make things and work with tools and their hands and skills of making things.Putting parts in cars isn't a completly mindless skill-you have to know how and what to do.And I bet the duties are rotated-we do that here.I don't picture myself as working in the real service and medical sectors-not for me!
You know would be nice if GM could revive the Unimatic-but at this point aren't all of the policians and green folks ganging up on the TL washer?even to the point of banning further building of them.Silly I think--REVIVE THE UNIMATIC and other classic TL machines-GIVE US A CHOICE!!!!I feel the water and energy rules for appliances should be SCRAPPED-get the overworked gov't out of that.Let folks buy what machines they like-If they want a FL-fine-if they want a TL fine-even if its a water hog.I PAY for the water and energy use my machines use.
 
We can't let them die---

But, there should be some oversite to make them perform. I bought my last GM car in 1984, this little POS was in the shop and behind a tow truck more than it was on the road. When I could afford to get rid of it I couldn't bring myself to go foreign, so I went with Iacocca and have never been sorry. My Chrysler products have never let me down, and I have been lucky that I have not had major repairs.

Since switching to Chrysler, we have owned three mini-vans, a truck, a car and two Jeeps. I am worried the most about Chrysler now that they are owned by a private company that was only interested in breaking them up and selling them off. They suffered badly under Diamler, I am afraid they won't recover.
 

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