Overly Kneaded Yeast Dough

[sarahperdue]

I searched the web, and all I found was that it is virtually impossible to do it.

Well, I'm here to tell you that it can be done because I did it. Using my Kitchen Aid, the beautiful ball that formed around the paddle was springy and elastic one moment and dissolved into a shiny, gluey ball the next. Paddle? Yes, you read that correctly. In a moment of pure brain death, I accidentally used the paddle. I'm pretty sure the paddle was the culprit because I didn't knead it any longer than usual.

So, it can be done. If you are an experienced baker wondering how you would know, don't worry, it will be completely obvious.

My question is, can it be saved? I did find an article that said over kneading causes a change in the flour proteins, so I tossed this batch. Just curious.

Thanks,
Sarah

 

[mixfinder]

Gone Slack

The term in bakery vocabulary is "dough gone slack". It doesn't happen often and almost never in a commercial setting because special higher protiens flour, higher gluten counts, diatastics and dough conditioners are all used that help to develop copious amounts of gluten. Home bakers using an "all-purpose" flour have a greater chance of running into slack doughs. The heat and friction of kneading finally breaks down the elasticity of gluten strands. Think of baking bread as blowing up a balloon. You have a stretchy dough with gluten strands linked, (well kneaded) living, growing yeast cells (proofed) and as the yeast cells breathe they give off carbon dioxide which inflates the balloon (dough). There isn't much that can be done to ressurect slacked dough which takes on a grey or putty look and puddles on the counter like Silly Putty. You might thin it out and let it begin to ferment on the counter to make a biga (starter) but thats a lot of time and expense to save 50 cents worth of flour. There is a current school of thought that espouses shortened kneading times with a premix, autolyze period (rest and hydrate) and then a quick finish to a shaggy dough.

 

[maytagbear]

What Kelly said!

I measure, do a short mix, just until combined, and then let it rest- which is what Kelly called an autolyse, and after about 15 minutes, do the rest of the mixing.

I like to make bread dough in my 12 cup KitchenAid processor. 45 seconds total mixing time does it nicely. I let the dough rise in the covered work bowl, and punch it down with two fast pushes of the pulse button.

Right now, I have a half whole wheat dough in the processor.

Lawrence/Maytagbear

 

[mattl]

Thanks Kelly for the insight. It may be the onset of cool weather, we've had some downright cold nights here in MI, but I decided to try my hand at what is for me the most difficult bread --sourdough Jewish Rye.

I made the starter, fed it for three days, and made the bread. The recipe called for clear flower, none to be had around here, so I used the suggested substitute of all purpose with a portion replaced with cake flour. The recipe also had an option altus but since ot was my first loaf I had none. Any way I'd give my first attempt a solid C. Main issue is as a freestanding loaf it spread too much, I'm guessing due to not enough flour. With my standard sweet dough I know just by look if there is enough flour, but I've been making that for 30 years. The flavor was good, and it was fairly heavy and moist just as I wanted.

I know it will be a slow process, between the sour and eating the bread I made, it will take many months to get it right. Any tip you care to share would be much appreciated. This is the recipe I used:

http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/rfcj/BREAD/Rye_Bread_True_NY_Sour_-_pareve.html

 

[iheartmaytag]

Not an professional, but have done my share of baking.
Your Cake flour did not have enough protein to form the gluten and hold the ball. This is why it works so well in cakes as it allows a fluffy light texture.

It is possible to over knead with a dough hook in a home setting as Kelly stated, It is almost impossible to do so by hand because you would tire out before the dough did. I have one recipe where you actually "over knead" that is when you are making English Muffins. The dough is kneaded until it goes slack and then is used for the squat muffins.

 

[petek]

You can always bolster all-purpose flour by adding some vital wheat gluten ( I use bread flour but keep some on hand in the fridge). Bob's Red Mill or something,, available at almost every grocery store either near the baking stuff or the spices.
As well adding a tablespoon or so of "Real Lemon" juice out of the bottle or squeeze some from a lemon adds a little bit of citric acid, another dough conditioner. You can buy citric acid in powder from at health food stores or ask for it at the pharmacy counter if you don't see it on the shelf.
Another natural product I use a bit of in bread is liquid lecithin. Good for you too.. I think it makes the bread stay fresh a wee bit longer.

 

[mattl]

Thanks guys. I do have some vital wheat gluten, I use it in my chickpea cutlets, so next time I'll add some to the mix. I need to order the proper four, but would rather depend on mostly off the shelf stuff.

 

[petek]

Don't use too much of the wheat gluten, maybe a heaping tablespoon for 4 cups of all purpose flour otherwise you'll get a rubbery glob.

 

[mattl]

Yes, I'm aware.  My original chickpea cutlet recipe called for 1/2c., way too much.  Now I use just a table spoon to bind it, often I just skip it.

 

[mattl]

Just an update on my bread making experience.  I made 2 more loves yesterday, added wheat gluten and a much better starter and got a bigger loaf.  Still not what I'm after, but progress.  Part of the problem may be that I had to go out while it was in the final rise and it spread too much.  I wonder if I got it in the oven before it got to that stage if it would have been better.

 

[petek]

Rising

Not sure what you mean by "not what you're after" was it mushrooming over the sides? Then yes you let it rise too long before baking.

 

[bajaespuma]

<ul>
<li>For almost any bread I'd recommend King Arthur All-Purpose Flour. A naturally refined flour; neither bleached nor bromated. Very close in specs to French and Italian Bread Flour in terms of<span style="text-decoration: underline;"> quality</span> of gluten produced. It's not strictly organic, but it's milled largely from organically-grown wheat.</li>
<li>If you're making a Sourdough Jewish rye, use the King Arthur Bread Flour or High Gluten flour. Most of these unusual flours can be found from the King Arthur catalog or on their website (they should pay me I promote them so much). Clear flour, the flour milled from the portion of the wheat right under the Aleuron layer (right below the bran)which is what old-timer Jewish bakers might have used, is hard to find and not necessary. Nowadays most of the Clear flour produced is fed to livestock.</li>
<li>Yes, it is possible with an electric mixer to over-knead dough. Using the paddle can only damage your mixer, not the dough. With small batches of dough and weird doughs like Brioche, I frequently used the paddle so I don't have to waste lots of time watching the hook try to move the dough around the bowl. Just be careful not to use the paddle with a large enough portion of dough that will strain the motor or/and damage the drive mechanism. As a general rule, when making a yeast-dough, the volume of dough shouldn't be more than half of the bowl.</li>
<li>Kneading dough for a long period of time isn't necessary; some bakers only give the dough 1 minute of knead to mix all the ingredients well. More important is a good, long, cool (dough shouldn't be more than 75 degrees F), slow first fermentation (the yeast does most of the gluten development); not less than 3 hours, de-gassing (punching-down) the dough every time it doubles in size. </li>
<li>Doing an Autolyse is pointless unless you're using an Unbleached and Unbromated Flour, like King Arthur. You mix the flour with <span style="text-decoration: underline;">only</span> the water until a dough forms and let it stand for 15-20 minutes then add the yeast and the salt. The natural enzymes in the wheat flour, in the absence of salt and yeast, start to break some of the starches down and start to work on the gluten and "condition" it for more elasticity and strength. </li>
<li>The wetter the dough, the better the bread.</li>
<li>A great book to use if you're really serious about this is Maggie Glezer's "Artisan Baking". </li>
</ul>

 

[mattl]

Pete, "by not what I'm after" I meant it spread out more than I wanted -- out not up.  I'm using it free form, no pan just on a cookie sheet.  I noticed my starter really took off this time around.  I had saved about 1/2 c. in the fridge, as recommended with a bit of water on the top.  When i fed it it grew very nicely, and made quite a stiff sour.  I might have added more flour this time around though.

 

As I mentioned it's a learning process for me.

 

Ken, thanks for the tips - again.  I do have King Aurthur flour available in the store, have used the bread flour for years.  I'll pick up a bag for the next round, maybe next week.

 

[jamiel]

A note for King Arthur aficionados...their HQ in Norwich, VT has just been expanded greatly into a real temple of bread...a store, baking school, cafe, etc etc. Just opened about a month ago...Brian and I were there over the weekend. A lot of fun, if you're in New England.

 

[lordkenmore]

I am far from an expert, although I have baked my share of bread. That said I will echo what was said above: King Arthur is good flour. Probably the best I've used, period. Although I will admit that I'm not a diehard.

 

[lordkenmore]

"King Arthur All-Purpose Flour. A naturally refined flour; neither bleached nor bromated. Very close in specs to French and Italian Bread Flour in terms of quality of gluten produced. It's not strictly organic, but it's milled largely from organically-grown wheat."

Does this "largely from organically-grown wheat" apply to their whole wheat and "white" whole wheat flours, too?

 

[bajaespuma]

Yes, as far as I know. Whole Wheat flours in this country are very problematic. There's very little consistency with different brands and different types of whole wheat flour and most of it is milled to appeal to the "crunchy" crowd and isn't very panifiable flour. Freshness is a big issue and it really helps if you have a good retailer or good source. When I use Stone Ground Wheat flour I pass it through a large sieve to get the big honkin' flakes of bran out and will use them to dust the tops of the loaves so they don't interfere a lot with the gluten.

 

In Europe they use a different milling system altogether and their whole wheat flours, especially in Southern Europe tend to be reduced to a powdery consistency, so you get more nutrition from the flour, all the benefits of the bran and germ and it makes better bread. You don't need so many "boosters' like VWG and other improvers. With all whole grain flours no matter where they are from you must remember that they are much more likely to turn rancid under dry storage than are refined "white" flours so they should be kept tightly sealed and in the freezer, ideally, if not used quickly. Also they are an excellent source for mealy moths and other critters. Get over it; it just comes with the territory.

 

[lordkenmore]

Thanks for the response about whole wheat flour!

 

[lordkenmore]

excellent source for mealy moths and other critters. Get ove

One could just bake anything creepy-crawly into the final loaf of bread to add protein!