Phosphate Free DW Detergent - The Furore Continues
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washernoob
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My oh my have we been having this problem as well.
We have always been cascade users. I LOVED the stuff. Works the best. Yet before when the new stuff came out I didn't even notice it. Just thought maybe it was a different scent or something.
After a few loads I realized a horrid white residue on everything started appearing. My mom said it must be the detergent. Bought some other stuff. Same darn thing!
This stuff sucks. I want my old good cascade back!
We have always been cascade users. I LOVED the stuff. Works the best. Yet before when the new stuff came out I didn't even notice it. Just thought maybe it was a different scent or something.
After a few loads I realized a horrid white residue on everything started appearing. My mom said it must be the detergent. Bought some other stuff. Same darn thing!
This stuff sucks. I want my old good cascade back!
launderess
Well-known member
Better Start Hoarding
Old formula's of Cascade, if you can find.
Otherwise another solution is to purchase a bucket of STPP and put back what P&G took away from Cascade.
Interesting to see P&G states (per article), they are reformulating certain versions of Cascade. Guess they got the message. To be fair it took years before laundry detergents got back anywhere near the cleaning power before phosphates were removed. Still the result is the same, it takes several chemicals to do what phosphates do on their own.
Old formula's of Cascade, if you can find.
Otherwise another solution is to purchase a bucket of STPP and put back what P&G took away from Cascade.
Interesting to see P&G states (per article), they are reformulating certain versions of Cascade. Guess they got the message. To be fair it took years before laundry detergents got back anywhere near the cleaning power before phosphates were removed. Still the result is the same, it takes several chemicals to do what phosphates do on their own.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
The difference being that it's one thing to put toxic chemicals in laundry detergent to aid in cleaning in the absence of phosphates.
It's quite a different matter regarding toxic chemicals in dishwashing detergent, since the objects being washed will come into direct contact with food and with people's mouths.
Someone didn't think this whole cockamamie idea through.
It's quite a different matter regarding toxic chemicals in dishwashing detergent, since the objects being washed will come into direct contact with food and with people's mouths.
Someone didn't think this whole cockamamie idea through.
I just cracked open the first box from the stash I got when Cascade was the only phosphated stuff left on the shelves. I sure hope they have figured out the right formula by the time I run out of the old stuff.
I've heard testimonials from one local member that with super hot water the non-phosphated formula does the job, but I don't want to have to deal with potential scalds from the sink tap.
I felt bad about dissing the Thundering Thermador after realizing it wasn't to blame for the white film on glasses and dishes. I fed it the phosphated stuff and it went right back to working like a champ, on glassware in particular, and really kicks ass on any of the steam cycles.
I've heard testimonials from one local member that with super hot water the non-phosphated formula does the job, but I don't want to have to deal with potential scalds from the sink tap.
I felt bad about dissing the Thundering Thermador after realizing it wasn't to blame for the white film on glasses and dishes. I fed it the phosphated stuff and it went right back to working like a champ, on glassware in particular, and really kicks ass on any of the steam cycles.
I have been checking every stop for d/w detergent with phosphates and they're all gone - *POOF* Just gone.
It's going to be a good time to be in the dishwasher repair biz now. And selling new ones.
It's going to be a good time to be in the dishwasher repair biz now. And selling new ones.
passatdoc
Well-known member
What the article didn't specify...
Was the formula changed for all 50 states, or are they selling low-phosphate versions in 17 states and conventional versions in the other 33? My guess is that it would not be economical to produce two versions based on prevailing state laws.
I have four or five jumbo (Costco) containers of Finish 4-in-1 tabs stockpiled (hoarded if you will) at home. When I peruse the container, there is no information about phosphate content on the package, nor is there any info on the Finish website. Two of the jumbo packs were purchased in August 2010, after they began selling low phosphate detergent.
I live in California which I believe was not one of the 17 states with new laws. Still, I wonder if my Finish stockpile was produced before the ban (as a close-out) or is low phosphate produced after the ban. The box I am using now was purchased last year: no intention to stockpile, rather I was running low and bought a 100-count pack at Costco. As a result, there is no change in my dishes at home, since I am using 2009 tablets.
With respect to the additional packages hoarded in August, I have no idea if it's original Finish or low phosphate Finish. Has anyone in a low phosphate state tried "new" Finish tabs yet?
Was the formula changed for all 50 states, or are they selling low-phosphate versions in 17 states and conventional versions in the other 33? My guess is that it would not be economical to produce two versions based on prevailing state laws.
I have four or five jumbo (Costco) containers of Finish 4-in-1 tabs stockpiled (hoarded if you will) at home. When I peruse the container, there is no information about phosphate content on the package, nor is there any info on the Finish website. Two of the jumbo packs were purchased in August 2010, after they began selling low phosphate detergent.
I live in California which I believe was not one of the 17 states with new laws. Still, I wonder if my Finish stockpile was produced before the ban (as a close-out) or is low phosphate produced after the ban. The box I am using now was purchased last year: no intention to stockpile, rather I was running low and bought a 100-count pack at Costco. As a result, there is no change in my dishes at home, since I am using 2009 tablets.
With respect to the additional packages hoarded in August, I have no idea if it's original Finish or low phosphate Finish. Has anyone in a low phosphate state tried "new" Finish tabs yet?
nmassman44
Well-known member
The new Finish Powerball Tabs do very well without phosphates but thats the only detergent that I know of that does as well as the phosphated stuff. But that said the 17 states that have mandated that all phosphates be removed from dishwasher detergents caused manufacturers to just stop making them all together. Massachusetts is one of those states. Here in Mass if a retailer doesnt pull the stuff off the shelves its a fine of $200 per box on the shelf.They had this "consumer advocate" on TV and he was saying that its better for the enviornment overall. He shops at the store my other half works at...I am curious if he has a dishwasher and if he uses it.
For me I am still able to find phosphated Cascade in Maine so when I go up I get some. The nonphosphated stuff works OK for me in my Miele but where I notice performance issues is with pots and pans. It leaves this layer of white powder on them. I have been hearing from friends that their dishwasher doesnt clean anymore and I tell them its the detergent. Once they switch to the Finish Tabs then the issue is cleared up.
For me I am still able to find phosphated Cascade in Maine so when I go up I get some. The nonphosphated stuff works OK for me in my Miele but where I notice performance issues is with pots and pans. It leaves this layer of white powder on them. I have been hearing from friends that their dishwasher doesnt clean anymore and I tell them its the detergent. Once they switch to the Finish Tabs then the issue is cleared up.
launderess
Well-known member
PassatDoc
New Finish tabs do not contain phosphates, or very small trace amounts. You have to find the old Electrasol or early Finish tabs for the good stuff. Key is to read the box, if the product contains phosphates it has to be labeled somewhere on the container.
Older stock of Electrasol/Finish tabs are out there, especially on fleaBay, but am here to warn you those things turn hockey puck hard upon storage.
When local supermarkets closed out of Electrasol tabs, stocked upon canisters. Well not half way through my stash noticed one couldn't break apart the tabs (used only 1/2 in my 18" Kenmore as a whole tab caused all sorts of excess frothing issues), and by the time one had got down to the last containers was using a mallet to bash the contents of the packet.
Regarding phosphates and dishwasher detergents via state, *ALL* domestic dishwasher detergent is now "STPP free" if you will. At least those produced by the main few makers such as P&G and so forth. They all got together and agreed to remove the stuff together so one product wouldn't have an edge over the other.
New York state's ban goes further in that both domestic and commercial dishwasher detergent must be phosphate free, along with lawn care products.
New Finish tabs do not contain phosphates, or very small trace amounts. You have to find the old Electrasol or early Finish tabs for the good stuff. Key is to read the box, if the product contains phosphates it has to be labeled somewhere on the container.
Older stock of Electrasol/Finish tabs are out there, especially on fleaBay, but am here to warn you those things turn hockey puck hard upon storage.
When local supermarkets closed out of Electrasol tabs, stocked upon canisters. Well not half way through my stash noticed one couldn't break apart the tabs (used only 1/2 in my 18" Kenmore as a whole tab caused all sorts of excess frothing issues), and by the time one had got down to the last containers was using a mallet to bash the contents of the packet.
Regarding phosphates and dishwasher detergents via state, *ALL* domestic dishwasher detergent is now "STPP free" if you will. At least those produced by the main few makers such as P&G and so forth. They all got together and agreed to remove the stuff together so one product wouldn't have an edge over the other.
New York state's ban goes further in that both domestic and commercial dishwasher detergent must be phosphate free, along with lawn care products.
whirlcool
Well-known member
I have noticed that the Cascade Action packs and the Cascade Complete gel packs have started to harden even though they are kept in another sealed bag. But when put in the DW they dissolve just fine.
Last night I had to wash a Cuisinart skillet which had burned on Chinese food. I just put it in the DW with 1 tsp STPP and filled the cups with Walmart Great Value detergent)non-phosphate). Set the DW to high temp wash and pots & pans cycle.
This morning when I opened the machine, the skillet was absolutely clean and shiny. Not a speck of dirt.
Last night I had to wash a Cuisinart skillet which had burned on Chinese food. I just put it in the DW with 1 tsp STPP and filled the cups with Walmart Great Value detergent)non-phosphate). Set the DW to high temp wash and pots & pans cycle.
This morning when I opened the machine, the skillet was absolutely clean and shiny. Not a speck of dirt.
vacfanatic
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Cascade Action Pacs
I'm down to my last 10 or so, and then I'm going to try Finish Tabs. This non-phosphated cascade is so not working very well. Our Whirlpool dishwasher worked great on my last box of Cascade powder that was phosphated, and now things really arent cleaning as well.
Might order me a pail of STPP soon.
Andrew
I'm down to my last 10 or so, and then I'm going to try Finish Tabs. This non-phosphated cascade is so not working very well. Our Whirlpool dishwasher worked great on my last box of Cascade powder that was phosphated, and now things really arent cleaning as well.
Might order me a pail of STPP soon.
Andrew
dogboy44
Well-known member
We are 2 boxes into this nightmare
And it is hard to describe, but all the dishes and glasses are starting to feel very fragile, at the same time not very smooth either. A couple glasses had a white film starting. If I get that STPP, how much do you add to the load? We have a Bosch. Yes the jet dry is full.
And it is hard to describe, but all the dishes and glasses are starting to feel very fragile, at the same time not very smooth either. A couple glasses had a white film starting. If I get that STPP, how much do you add to the load? We have a Bosch. Yes the jet dry is full.
whirlcool
Well-known member
Just wait until your aluminum pans turn orange......
We add between 1/2 teaspoon and 1 teaspoon per load, depending on water hardness.
We add between 1/2 teaspoon and 1 teaspoon per load, depending on water hardness.
jerrod6
Well-known member
Passatdoc:
I started using Finish non phosphate All-in-1 tabs in June, so they were out for sale then, at least in my area. I have a stash of phosphated detergent but I rotate DW detergents each week, so I switch between Finish non phosphate tabs, Finish non phosphate powder, Cascade Complete non phosphate powder,Cascade All-in 1-Gel non phosphate, Finish Quantum Tabs with phosphate, old Electrsol 3 in 1 tabs, and Miele DW powder. The Cascade powder does an OK job but is not as good as Finish. Cascade Gel works OK but has a strong scent. Last week I used Quantum tabs with phosphate, this week I am using Miele tabs with phosphate. Next week I will use Finish non phosphate powder. I Don't know how Cascade Action pacs peform. I tried them last year but the scent in them was so strong that I could smell it on the dishes after the cycle so I hesitate to try them again.
My box of Finish All-in-1 tabs non phosphate has a series of green colored squares on the back of the box. The squares are labeled "Our Home Our planet" and within one of these squares is the phrase "Phosphate Free!", written so small you would miss it if you aren't looking for it.
I started using Finish non phosphate All-in-1 tabs in June, so they were out for sale then, at least in my area. I have a stash of phosphated detergent but I rotate DW detergents each week, so I switch between Finish non phosphate tabs, Finish non phosphate powder, Cascade Complete non phosphate powder,Cascade All-in 1-Gel non phosphate, Finish Quantum Tabs with phosphate, old Electrsol 3 in 1 tabs, and Miele DW powder. The Cascade powder does an OK job but is not as good as Finish. Cascade Gel works OK but has a strong scent. Last week I used Quantum tabs with phosphate, this week I am using Miele tabs with phosphate. Next week I will use Finish non phosphate powder. I Don't know how Cascade Action pacs peform. I tried them last year but the scent in them was so strong that I could smell it on the dishes after the cycle so I hesitate to try them again.
My box of Finish All-in-1 tabs non phosphate has a series of green colored squares on the back of the box. The squares are labeled "Our Home Our planet" and within one of these squares is the phrase "Phosphate Free!", written so small you would miss it if you aren't looking for it.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
To the guy that said the phosphate free was "ok" but noticed that the pots and pans had a white film on them (SAME THING HERE)........That and the interior of the dishwasher looked a little more stained than usual.......Otherwise it seemed ok to me....But when I added STPP to the phosphate free cascade.....Problem solved..........Can't they just upgrade treatment plants to filter out phosphates? It must be pretty difficult or I'm sure they would have done it.
I still think if they ban phosphates, they should ban them from EVERYTHING, not just detergents......What good is it going to do if they allow farms to continue to use them?
I still think if they ban phosphates, they should ban them from EVERYTHING, not just detergents......What good is it going to do if they allow farms to continue to use them?
Ban phosphates (fertilizer) from farms?
Not if you like reasonably priced food to cook in your clean pots and eat off of your clean dishes
Not if you like reasonably priced food to cook in your clean pots and eat off of your clean dishes
jerrod6
Well-known member
Mark
I read a forum posting someplace that contained a map showing rivers and lakes and their phosphate levels - or something like that. Some treatment plants do remove phosphate...I think my city treatment plant does process phosphate and the river that the treatment plant dumps the waste into is not loaded with phosphates ...even so..my state banned it.
I am billed each month for water and last month I used 5,900 gallons of water and was charged $65 for it, $35 went to wastewater treatment. We had a 5.7% rate increase this year and will have a 6% increase next year. I guess the plants could be upgraded to remove it and I wish all of them were, because I don't think it is fair to limit phosphates for household use only in our state, but I bet people would not want a tax increase or increase in water rates to pay for it.
I read a forum posting someplace that contained a map showing rivers and lakes and their phosphate levels - or something like that. Some treatment plants do remove phosphate...I think my city treatment plant does process phosphate and the river that the treatment plant dumps the waste into is not loaded with phosphates ...even so..my state banned it.
I am billed each month for water and last month I used 5,900 gallons of water and was charged $65 for it, $35 went to wastewater treatment. We had a 5.7% rate increase this year and will have a 6% increase next year. I guess the plants could be upgraded to remove it and I wish all of them were, because I don't think it is fair to limit phosphates for household use only in our state, but I bet people would not want a tax increase or increase in water rates to pay for it.
dj-gabriele
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Jerrod, lucky fella! I wish my water was that cheap! 
On average we pay around 4 euros per 1000 liters plus waste treatments!
On average we pay around 4 euros per 1000 liters plus waste treatments!
launderess
Well-known member
Building New Waste Treatment Plants
Or upgrading older ones is *VERY* expensive. Local and state governments are already facing huge budget problems and no one has that kind of money lying around. Rate (tax) payers aren't in any mood to either pay more or see more debt issued which in theory is a form of tax, only payment is deferred til a later date.
The federal government has been making lots of noises lately regarding local water quality, using the "Clean Water Act" amoung other laws/rules to get states in line with regards not only to the quality of their drinking water, but the effects of waste water as it moves "down stream".
Banning phosphates in dishwasher detergents as the above linked article states, is pretty small beer. But the tree hugging movement felt it was something worth pushing.
Or upgrading older ones is *VERY* expensive. Local and state governments are already facing huge budget problems and no one has that kind of money lying around. Rate (tax) payers aren't in any mood to either pay more or see more debt issued which in theory is a form of tax, only payment is deferred til a later date.
The federal government has been making lots of noises lately regarding local water quality, using the "Clean Water Act" amoung other laws/rules to get states in line with regards not only to the quality of their drinking water, but the effects of waste water as it moves "down stream".
Banning phosphates in dishwasher detergents as the above linked article states, is pretty small beer. But the tree hugging movement felt it was something worth pushing.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
I think they estimate mine. Every other month my bill says I used 3,750 gallons EXACTLY, while other months will say I used like 3250 etc. My water bill which includes trash pick up is around 48 to 53 dollars.
launderess
Well-known member
Shouldn't Worry About Commercial Dishwashing
Afterall in settings that serve food to the public, dishwashers are mainly for sanitising and removing food residue mostly after dishes are pre-washed/rinsed.
Commercial dishwashers can also be set to run at much higher wash and rinse temps than many current domestic offerings. Given their heaters run on 220v or even gas power, they probably can reach those temps faster as well.
Much of NYS has naturally soft water, especially in NYC, so the water softening aspects of STPP aren't in dire need as say someone living where the water is rock hard.
NYS gave commercial automatic dishwashing detergents a bit longer to stay on the shelves than domestic versions. My guess is clever suppliers will find a way to keep certain customers happy. I mean don't know if commercial dishwasher detergent makers such as Ecolab signed onto the "no phosphate" bandwagon like P&G et al did.
Afterall in settings that serve food to the public, dishwashers are mainly for sanitising and removing food residue mostly after dishes are pre-washed/rinsed.
Commercial dishwashers can also be set to run at much higher wash and rinse temps than many current domestic offerings. Given their heaters run on 220v or even gas power, they probably can reach those temps faster as well.
Much of NYS has naturally soft water, especially in NYC, so the water softening aspects of STPP aren't in dire need as say someone living where the water is rock hard.
NYS gave commercial automatic dishwashing detergents a bit longer to stay on the shelves than domestic versions. My guess is clever suppliers will find a way to keep certain customers happy. I mean don't know if commercial dishwasher detergent makers such as Ecolab signed onto the "no phosphate" bandwagon like P&G et al did.
kqkenmore
Well-known member
I have vacuum sealed some Cascade Powder in the boxes it kinda smushed them but that is ok because I cannot stand that no phosphate crap I had to throw away dishes because of it. I just bought the thing that you can use on a vacuum sealer to vac seal mason jars I am going to put my Cascade action packs in it to see how they seal.
sudsmaster
Well-known member
In my neck of the woods, sewer fees are paid on an annual basis as part of the property tax bill.
Water is billed every two months. Currently my monthly bill averages about $21/month. This is up from the $15/month it cost ten years ago. My bill would be higher, but there is a good well on the property that I use extensively for lawn watering and irrigation. The catch there is that the electricity to run the pump probably costs some, hard to say just how much what with the variable rate tiers, or if it is more or less than muni water would cost.
Jeff, if you live within driving range of a Grocery Outlet or a Big Lots, I suggest looking there for phosphated dw detergents. Right now I can get a rather huge 11 lb box of phosphated Cascade for $7 at Grocery Outlet. It works well, also.
Water is billed every two months. Currently my monthly bill averages about $21/month. This is up from the $15/month it cost ten years ago. My bill would be higher, but there is a good well on the property that I use extensively for lawn watering and irrigation. The catch there is that the electricity to run the pump probably costs some, hard to say just how much what with the variable rate tiers, or if it is more or less than muni water would cost.
Jeff, if you live within driving range of a Grocery Outlet or a Big Lots, I suggest looking there for phosphated dw detergents. Right now I can get a rather huge 11 lb box of phosphated Cascade for $7 at Grocery Outlet. It works well, also.
jakeseacrest
Well-known member
After emptying my dishwasher this morning, I'm going to either go to Rhode Island to find Cascade with phosphates or buy SOS pads to clean my pans. They look horrible!
Dish Drops?
I too have dishwashing woes and switched temporarily to Finish Powerball Quantum tabs which are better. I go through them in a fairly rapid rate so I am doing more calculations as to value.
However, if memory serves me right there was an Amway product called Dish Drops. Have never used them. Has anyone tried this product lately and does it work well?
I too have dishwashing woes and switched temporarily to Finish Powerball Quantum tabs which are better. I go through them in a fairly rapid rate so I am doing more calculations as to value.
However, if memory serves me right there was an Amway product called Dish Drops. Have never used them. Has anyone tried this product lately and does it work well?
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
I reserve the right to retract the proceeding statement at a
I was talking to myself the other day while loading dishes. I said "self, these dishes aren't that dirty." "Maybe I should buy some of the crappy phosphate free stuff to use on 'not so grimy' days and have the good stuff when the load is really bad."
So I picked up a bag of Cascade Complete (phosphate free) on Saturday. The initial load I tried it out on was after Spaghetti and the results weren't that bad. Everything was clean, but again it was fresh and washed immediately after clearing the table.
Yesterday I ran a light load of just breakfast and lunch dishes, no heat boost, no sani-rinse. Again good results.
Our water is running about 7 grains right now because we are pulling from the resivor.
I am going to hold final judgement after a load has set a few days with dried on egg and oatmeal and see what happens, but like I said the initial results were good. No streaking, no spots, not left behind food.
BTW-The dishwasher is a Maytag 300 series (currently under recall) and I do use Jetdry Turbo in the final. I usually use the Hi-temp wash with Sani-rinse on Autoclean.
I was talking to myself the other day while loading dishes. I said "self, these dishes aren't that dirty." "Maybe I should buy some of the crappy phosphate free stuff to use on 'not so grimy' days and have the good stuff when the load is really bad."
So I picked up a bag of Cascade Complete (phosphate free) on Saturday. The initial load I tried it out on was after Spaghetti and the results weren't that bad. Everything was clean, but again it was fresh and washed immediately after clearing the table.
Yesterday I ran a light load of just breakfast and lunch dishes, no heat boost, no sani-rinse. Again good results.
Our water is running about 7 grains right now because we are pulling from the resivor.
I am going to hold final judgement after a load has set a few days with dried on egg and oatmeal and see what happens, but like I said the initial results were good. No streaking, no spots, not left behind food.
BTW-The dishwasher is a Maytag 300 series (currently under recall) and I do use Jetdry Turbo in the final. I usually use the Hi-temp wash with Sani-rinse on Autoclean.
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