Phosphates

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davetranter

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Messages
294
Location
Central England
I recently picked up a packet of 'Grease Remover Tablets' from a local thrift store. These are intended for removing baked-on grease from oven racks, deep fat fryers, etc. when used in conjunction with boiling water. The 'ingredients' are listed as:-

Phosphates >30%
Oxygen-based bleaching agents >30%
Non-ionic surfactants 5-15%
Polycarboxylates <5%

The packaging is covered in dire warnings about undissolved tablets corroding their way through alumin(i)um utensils.

I was wondering, though, about crushing 1/4 or 1/2 a tablet and adding it to the detergent in the dispenser when washing greasy workshop overalls (Is that 'coveralls' Stateside??), since nothing I have used recently seems to get them anything like clean.
1/4 tablet would be about 5 grammes or 1/6 oz.

Opinions/suggestions, please???

All best

Dave T

NOTE TO WEBMASTER:- If this post (or any part of it) may be deemed illegal in the U.S.A., please feel free to edit or delete it. I understand that 'Phosphates' may be a 'taboo' subject in some areas.
 
I'm not the webmaster but. . .

NAW!! we love Phosphates here too, it's just the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) that takes issues with them.
 
They sound as though they are based around a dishwasher detergent (non-ionic surfactants which are lower foaming than other surfactants).

The >30% oxygen bleach is different though, but might be similar to the "Finish Booster" standalone additive powder (circa 1990s), which was supposed to be added by the user depending on whether pot 'n' pans required it.

Aluminium can develop a grey roughness, depending on the alkalinity, so it might have some form of caustic ingredient added. Are there any hazard labels attached?
 
Illegal????

LOL
That's just a post!
smiley-laughing.gif

And phosphates are perfectly legal  in detergents in  all USA as long as they're sold as "institutional"....so it is not taboo!
It's just" illegal" to still  produce  household products so destinated to household  use containing them.

And absolutely it would not be a taboo or illegal anyway  to talk about them LOL...here in Italy is illegal to modify cars, I mean is illegal to pimp cars and allow them to go around like instead in USA is so common and pefrectly legal....this does not mean I can't talk about pimped cars in Italy! :D
Stay cool!!!!
smiley-wink.gif


 

[this post was last edited: 7/5/2013-18:06]
 
P.S The most important thing:
Yes I think it's safe to be used in a washer and in laundry, it does not look too caustic for laundry for the dose you'd put (typical of these kind of   stuff to be much caustic products, as you can read aluminum corrosion means caustic).... for others ingredients it looks  made of similar ingredients of a dishwasher detergent.
If possible  washer damage is you concern I think you can use them easily and freely! P.S Overall buttons may get  oxidated though! But in the dose you're going to put I think there is no danger as it is fair and not excessively concentrated and so safe for fibers also.
About the use:

Personally I would use other products though, not a product like that.
What I would use indeed is the Deepio degreaser product.... this looks to have an ingredient list that most suits the use in  laundry, excellent  to add to a crappy detergent to wash greasy overalls (if you need to add other stuff then the detergent you use is crappy).
To consider there is the foaming speech though, what type of machine you're going to use it in?  Deepio would sud in a front loader, so maybe if those tablets does not suds they would be a better alternative in your case....even though  as said I think Deepio would just be more adeguate to this use because of it's ingredients.

[this post was last edited: 7/5/2013-18:24]
 
Legality:

Dishwasher detergents with phosphates are outlawed only in certain states - this is a state, not a Federal issue. Sixteen states ban them; a list is below.

What is going on with not being able to get phosphated detergent easily in the rest of the country? Two things:

A) Manufacturers are probably figuring that other states will follow suit, AND
B) They're saving themselves the costs inherent in supplying two different products, which would mean two different distribution channels.

The states are:

Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington and Wisconsin.

In other states, phosphates in dishwasher detergent remain as legal as they ever were, but the distribution costs prevent manufacturers from supplying phosphated products to those states.

I am personally waiting for an uptick in communicable diseases caused by the truly godawful performance of some non-phosphate detergents; I have seen some things come out of dishwashers recently that looked more like they should be going in.
 
No I think that what has happened is that the detergent mfgs have found they can take out an inportant ingredent that make the DW detergents work and sell you crapy deteergent so that you also have to buy an expensive additive to make it work so they can make more money because DW detergent use to be formulated for the region that it was sold in (Finish).That is the one thing that we have going here in Memphis is that it is legal.

Dave if you want something that will get out grease use either Clear Ammonia (non sudsing)or if you can get it a product called Lestoil they both great on greasse in the wash.if you use a front loader pour it on the clothes in the drum.
 
My understanding is that Europe has backed down from banning phosphates from dw detergents... because of the lousy results...

Those tablets are probably safe for laundry, especially filthy laundry. I don't see anything in the listed ingredients that would be a problem

The corrosion of aluminum is normal for phosphates. Phosphates like to bond with aluminum, making aluminum phosphate. But unless you wear work duds made of aluminum foil, the tabs should be ok. I'd ust make sure they were fully dissolved before adding clothes to washer. And be careful about the suds level - not sure if the non-ionic detergents are high or low sudsing. You might even try a test wash with a well soiled article that you don't care too deeply about.

I am a little concerned because the label doesn't say what kind of phosphates it contains. If it's a simple phosphate like Trisodium Phosphate (TSP) it might be great for hard surfaces but not so effective on laundry. Most effective on laundry would be a complex phosphate like Sodium Tripolyphosphate (STPP) which has the advantage of keeping hard water minerals and mineral laden dirt/grease in solution so it can be rinsed away and not redeposited back on fabrics.

I can attest however that STPP, the major ingredients in older phosphated detergents, works great to remove grease stains from clothing. Especially grease with mineral content. I add it to a non-phosphated laundry detergent at a ratio of 1 part STPP to 2 parts detergent powder, by weight. Volume probably would be close enough as well.

Your suggested dosage is a little light, though. I'd suggest starting at 1/2 oz, and going up from there.

I'm a little puzzled by the addition of polycarboxylates to the tabs. These are generally added to make up for the loss of complex phosphates in modern detergents. So it may be an indication that the tabs contain simple and not complex phosphates, but it's still worth a try.
 
The European Union is still looking at how the ban on phosphates in laundry detergent works out. In regard to dishwasher detergent, they have decided that phosphates will have to be reduced from December 31st 2016 unless the phosphate levels in the environment are acceptable. Apparently a few big rivers, like the Danube, have high phosphate levels. The ban on phosphates in laundry detergent was based on research. Apparently 16 - 24% of the phosphates in those rivers was due to phosphates in laundry detergent. Apparently the reason the blue Danube isn't so blue anymore.
 
Don't want to derail into a debate about phosphate pollution, but I do wonder how at most 25% coming from landry detergents is the major problem... when at least 75% comes from "other" sources. Let me guess: human waste, agricultural waste, probably the major contributors. For human waste there should be improved waste water treatment facilities to remove not only phosphates but also nitrogenous compounds from any effluent released into the river systems. For agricultural, a move towards more sustainable, organic forms of agriculture would help a lot. Typically famers over-apply fertilizer and the excess runs off and pollutes water. Here in the southern US a major water pollution problem are huge hog farms that generate equally huge amounts of hog waste. This is generally collected into holding ponds but occassionally the pond walls break and release the gunk into the water system. And I'm sure it doesn't smell too good even on the best of days.

Anyway my point was that phosphate is one of the essential minerals for human, animal, and plant survival. It's been given a black eye because if it is eliminated then algal growth is retarded even in the presence of excessive amounts of nitrogen compounds. But realistically all pollutants should be reduced as much as possible before the waste effluent is released into the environment, including nitrogen. And, since it's projected that easily obtained sources of phosphate are limited and expected to run out in the not so distant future, recovering and recycling phosphates from the waste stream seems like a very sensible course of action.
 
I didn't want to debate either, just sharing here what I found about the European guidelines in regard to dishwasher detergents.

As for recovering and recycling phosphates, I don't know how far that technology is and how expensive it is to get some back. If that would be possible, it might even be more friendly for the environment than the alternatives.
 
Information I gathered on the subject a few years back indicates that not only is it feasable, but it's being done as part of tertiary waste processing. The recovered phosphate can be incorporated into chicken feed and fertilizer.

As for cost, I don't know. I suppose when it become cheaper to recover phosphates from the waste stream than to mine increasingly scarce natural deposits the tertiary phosphate recovery will take off.
 
Sudsmaster

I've always considered you the in house expert regarding STPP. And don't wont to hi jack the topic, but you mentioned STPP and Aluminum... Was just curious about the use of it when using a vintage washer, specifically a Maytag E. good idea, or bad?
Thoughts
 
Phosphates Are Present In Human Waste

So to an extend most sewage systems must deal with a certain amount normally. It is when current systems cannot produce product low enough to meet government standards that things become expensive.

New York City was under heavy pressure from the federal government over it's waste treatment systems and faced the prospect of being forced to upgrade. That would have cost billons the City does not have. One *thinks* this was behind NYS banning all phosphates in laundry and dishwasher products both commercial and domestic.

http://www.phosphatesfacts.org/resource.asp
 
Glad to see discussion

Thank you all for your many informed answers to my original question. It appears that the consensus is that my overalls are unlikely to dissolve into mush at the first wash, and neither is my washing machine, and that the addition of a bit of dishwashing detergent may have a similar 'boosting' effect :-)

Please feel free to discuss the topic of Phosphates in the widest sense - Hijacking of this thread is not only expected, but encouraged ;-)

Re: 'legality' I was (and still am) unsure about the legal status of 'free speech' when it's in text form (printed or 'virtual'). I just wanted to minimise the risk of causing 'trouble' for this wonderful site and/or it's administrators.

I now also know what 'STPP' is, which I've seen mentioned in threads before.... Thanks, Sudsmaster. :)

All best

Dave T
 
That's a list you did put...and you're just talking about as  many of us always do on here...you didn't sell ( as a licensed merchant, shop, business for these  products) or produced any detergent in the US areas where it is forbbiden so no problem about that...
smiley-laughing.gif

Anyway sticking  to the fact, I'm not even sure that the product you mention is a much alkaline thing<a name="start_47327.687444">, as you can read is all about Oxigen bleaching stuff, Phosphates and nonionic surfactans...and zeolites (used as a subsitute for STPP).
I think the warning for aluminum was due to the bleaching stuff in it rather than an alkali component like sodium hydroxide (which would actually "fry" on  and pass from side to side  on an alluminum item), ingredient which is sometimes present in some products like that (that would actually have the potential to ruin both your clothes and perhaps contribuite to ruin already compromised parts of the machine due to the age, like old dried boots or seals),  or weaker like sodium carbonate-Washing soda,  (that is safe for clothes and machine, and has been used for ages for laundering uses as an addition to wash water, but that  has the caratheristic to be evil for aluminum as it oxidate and corrode it, absolutely not in the way that sodium hydroxide do of course, it just oxidate and corrode the surfaces), this last  ingredient  is present in most of dregreasers like that, and other kinds of detergent, aluminum is one of the easier metals to be oxidated and cannot stand oxy bleach stuff also, same reason why also in Vanish packages for example you'll read it must not be used on aluminum, again no danger for your machine or clothes naturally, machines are just meant to stand chemicals with oxygen bleaches  which are also present in many detergents, as for all the ones you reported  in your post about these tablets you're going to put... then you're going to put a small amount of it.
Gotta admit that's a weird ingredient list for the kind of product that is... I can understand Phosphates, the non ionic surfactans but I can't just understand the presence of that much of oxi bleaching agents (the ones that would corrode the alumimum in this case) if not for the only and kinda unusual  purpose of mild dirt and grease lifter (due to oxigen created with boiling water)  which IMO would not  be much effective if there is not any anionic surfactan to "soak" weaken & loosen the dirt,  baked grease and food  for  istance...needless to say I would have expected at least some sodium carbonate in it  and surfactans both anionic and nonionic in greater percentage for this purpose.</a>




[this post was last edited: 7/7/2013-08:12]
 
There are lots of different aluminum alloys and they vary in their corrosion resistance to various chemicals. Some alloys have additives (like copper) that improve their strength but decrease their corrosion resistance. Native aluminum naturally forms a corrosion resistant oxide layer (aluminum oxide) that is very hard and helps to protect the metal below from further corrosion. This is sort of a paradox, because the aluminum oxide is actually a type of corrosion. Phosphates are added to boiler and cooling systems to help prevent metal corrosion, and are typical of older automotive antifreeze formulations. For a vintage washer with exposed aluminum parts, I'd stick with whatever soaps and detergents were commone when the machine was manufactured. My understanding is that phosphates were not added to laundry detergents until after WWII. I would definitely avoid acidic conditions with aluminum parts. I don't know that oxygen bleaches present any extra corrosion challenge to aluminum parts. However corrosion may be accelerated by pockets of higher concentration of corrosive constituents as well as by physical abrasion which removes the protective aluminum oxide layer. We're probably all familiar with the effect of dishwasher detergents and high water temps on aluminum utensils - which generally will turn a bright, polished aluminum surface into a dull gray surface. This may or may not be considered a problem.

When my Maytag Neptune drum aluminum alloy spider needed to be replaced, I noticed that it had turned black. The repair guy said this was normal and nothing to be worried about. The spider had cracked from a manufacturing defect. I've since continued to use phosphated detergents in the machine without any problems - for ten years now.

Your mileage may vary.
 


<a name="start_47327.687796">"I would definitely avoid acidic conditions with aluminum parts."
</a>


Well, you ain't get acidic conditions with phosphates or Sodium Carbonate that's for sure....rather basic ones...but both  stronger acid or base sides may result bad.


 

[this post was last edited: 7/7/2013-14:29]
 
You're right under certain aspects...

The speech about vintage machines with alumimum parts is different though, of course  is safe to use stpp, not strong basic stuff, so  basic solutions .  Vintage machines that used to be made before the" modern" detergents, so the ones that used to be made with exposed  aluminum vital parts like agitators or  even shafts etc (that were anyway made with alloys standing well medium basic conditions)  are not the best to be used with stronger basic/alkali solutions or additives creating such  stronger basic conditions,  as they were not meant to do so due to formulations of old detergents...the new ones may provide bad oxidation of said aluminum parts  and may also corrode them in the long run,  use after use ( with stronger alkaline wash waters solutions), I could just see my  vint age Servis' twin tub shaft getting slightly marked with the white patina and  by white points by using some perborate added to regular detergent,  perborate which created a stronger alkali solution when has been  added to a  crappy detergent that was already full with alkalis (much washing soda) that I ignored it was... infact now that I know I will only use certain types of powders...I also didn't realize it's shaft was made with that delicate aluminum alloy.. if i have to be honest, so didn't even worry about that.
Infact back then as you mention, the most common type of detergent was plain "soap" flakes or powdered form,  and some time later new syntetic detergents came out, from what I know though initially were not loaded with as much  alkali as are now getting newer powders, they had more active stuff  (surfactans) and less "boosters" like washing soda , this changed during years and especially now after that many  ones tries and tried to replace STPP function with a greater amount of sodium carbonate, adding anyway slightly more zeolites supposed to act also like  STPP for metal protective caratheristics, but not just as well and as effective.
I can though confirm  you at least from what I could read that oxy bleach stuff ( I mean the  non perborate  oxybleaching stuff, perborate is actually a basic/alkali ) can oxidate it,  this is why I can read even on color safe bleach (hydrogen peroxide main ingredient) bottles to do not use it on aluminum.
I get what you said about my speech.....of course a stronger alkali solution may be bad for a vintage machine like would be a beatty wringer or an old vintage speed queen with aluminum agitator...so you have to be careful what you use in, that must not be necessarily a detergent of the era in which it was made...you just have to be careful about the powders and the alkali percentage they contain to avoid irreversible oxidation of it's vital parts.
I think newers like the Neptune you mention do have another alloy for their components and what you get is just an oxidation and not a danger of corrosion even in strong alkali solutions (just do not know about this, but would be really weird if  not so) ..but vintage ones with such parts were just not meant to deal like that with  stronger bases, here why you have to be more careful.
From what I know machines made after,  were just meant to stand  basic solutions....came after the newer syntetic detergents boom.
Probably some would not even suffer if you hypoteticaly use pure lye as wash water... but that would reduce your clothes like toilet paper  so that's not the case at all....
They all can deal  with sodium carbonate,perborate etc.... and these  kind of alkaline stuff in fair doses and concentrations without any harm..... not  the vintage machines with aluminum parts, there is always the risk to permanently ruin (for ruin I mean even a darkening oxidtion)  a vital part, agitator etc...not to mention if you're usual to wash in stronger bases, for example by adding  perborate to everyy wash with a powder already containing carbonates in modest quantity, that may even give life to corrosion (meant as progressive thinning and "holing", not the  oxidation you said) in the long run.
All I know is that acid like basic solutiuons are dangerous for aluminum, ....and usually basic/alkali solutions are the conditions detergents creates...some more and some less....
I know what you meant, the aspect of a vintage machine with aluminum is important also..... I just said it wrong by saying any machine before, I left this matter of vintage machines and their aluminum parts for granted, but better to make the point about that! :) You're right!

[this post was last edited: 7/7/2013-15:42]
 
Thanks Sudsmasterter for the info and thanks Laundress for s

I've just about given up trying to keep the Maytag E tub looking bright and shiny. With the exception of my own soap formula, and a couple of liquid detergents, everything dulls the E.
Powdered detergent, AKA sodium carbonate, STPP, Borax, Oxi/clean, all cause a oxidation (dulling) on the old girl. So I'm glad to know that the STPP has not cause any damage to your machine.
Also want to thank you for sharing your mixing ratio of STPP, as I think we share the same water source here in CA ?
(May be treated different locally though) ours is about 5 to 6 grains last time I checked.
 
The water here is around 4-5 grains.

But I use STPP not to soften the water (unless I'm using pure soap), but rather to help break dirt from fabrics and hold it in suspension so it can be rinsed away.

The difference, which I noted back in the 80's and early 90's when Costco kept switching its Clout! powdered detergent between phosphated and non-phosphated, is like night and day. Used to wear white jeans for race track safety work. Since I rode a motorcycle, they'd invariably get black greasy soil on them. The phosphated Clout! would get them clean. The non-phosphated Clout! would fail miserably. It took a while to research the type of phosphate that was responsible; that's how I "discovered" that adding STPP separately to a non-phosphated detergent would result in the good old sparkling white results again.
 
Interesting

Sounds like that works (obviously)
but I'm curious to know chemically, how a non precipitating softener/ builder, works mixed with a precipitating softener builder
(sodium carbonate) thats usually in a main ingredient in powdered detergent ?
 
Easy, the non-precipitating builder, such as STPP, has a high affinity for hard water minerals as well as mineral laden soiling/stains. It will compete with the precipitating builder such as washing soda, for the minerals, to the extent that it eliminates appreciable precipitation. The washing soda still has a role to play since it helps raise the pH more than STPP does and therefore helps with breaking and saponification. No, I don't know the binding energy of STPP vs. Sodium Carbonate but from my own experience I would say it's higher.
 
This isn't entirely related to the thread but I found it humorous.

Spotted this weekend at the local home store, Phosphate free TSP, Shouldn't is just be called TS then? (Ok they do call it "TSP substitute")

Next week I'm sure I'll run across some fat-free Margarine!

kb0nes++7-8-2013-10-31-0.jpg
 

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