Plane Crash: this one not so feel good
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whirlcool
Well-known member
Not that's not the one.
The one that crashed was a Continental Q400, operated by Colgan Airlines, one of Continentals regional partners. This plane was only about 1 year old.
Contributing factors as I was told when I asked someone I know at Continental was such things as very windy conditions and low level icing. Lots of planes in the area were reporting it.
According to latest news reports, no survivors, 49 dead.
Here is a link to the history of this type of aircraft. They are rather ungainly looking birds. But very economical and lots of airlines use them. You'll see a lot of them in the Seattle area, Horizon has a ton of them.
www.wgrz.com
The one that crashed was a Continental Q400, operated by Colgan Airlines, one of Continentals regional partners. This plane was only about 1 year old.
Contributing factors as I was told when I asked someone I know at Continental was such things as very windy conditions and low level icing. Lots of planes in the area were reporting it.
According to latest news reports, no survivors, 49 dead.
Here is a link to the history of this type of aircraft. They are rather ungainly looking birds. But very economical and lots of airlines use them. You'll see a lot of them in the Seattle area, Horizon has a ton of them.
404 Not Found | wgrz.com
www.wgrz.com
whirlcool
Well-known member
Horrible accident, sorry this flight went so bad with loss of life. We were so thankful for the Flight Crew and passengers that went into the Hudson last month, with only injuries. You just never know. I hope all here are safe and sound. alr2903
rocketwarrior
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"Female Pilot" FOX feed
I heard, from a FOX feed (and on the website), reference to a "female pilot" - like the Berlin Airlift never happened. I don't recall Sully being referred to as a "male pilot." Too many people just don't get it.
I heard, from a FOX feed (and on the website), reference to a "female pilot" - like the Berlin Airlift never happened. I don't recall Sully being referred to as a "male pilot." Too many people just don't get it.
whirlcool
Well-known member
Mark:
I understand your point. It wasn't too awful long ago that female F/O's and Captains were considered pretty rare. It was the 1970's before airlines would even consider hiring them. I would say until the 1990's the flight deck was still a male dominated environment. Since then, that has changed. But to the general public it still is pretty unusual. And of course the media often gets things wrong when talking about aviation anyway. Sometimes one type of plane crashes and they show a photo of yet another type.
I fly with quite a number of female F/O's, and personally I don't care what sex they are as long as they can do their duty and perform to expectations.
Now I admit we do have a few that are extreme feminists which can even considered being "butch", but the majority of them are most likely to be loving soccer moms as well.
I understand your point. It wasn't too awful long ago that female F/O's and Captains were considered pretty rare. It was the 1970's before airlines would even consider hiring them. I would say until the 1990's the flight deck was still a male dominated environment. Since then, that has changed. But to the general public it still is pretty unusual. And of course the media often gets things wrong when talking about aviation anyway. Sometimes one type of plane crashes and they show a photo of yet another type.
I fly with quite a number of female F/O's, and personally I don't care what sex they are as long as they can do their duty and perform to expectations.
Now I admit we do have a few that are extreme feminists which can even considered being "butch", but the majority of them are most likely to be loving soccer moms as well.
rocketwarrior
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Butch?
What does "butch" mean in this context? (not trying to pick a fight) Am truly interested in what characteristics you are describing and how they are significant/relevant/noteworth vis-a-vis "male" pilots?
What does "butch" mean in this context? (not trying to pick a fight) Am truly interested in what characteristics you are describing and how they are significant/relevant/noteworth vis-a-vis "male" pilots?
whirlcool
Well-known member
When I mean "butch" I am mean women that have more masculine traits than feminine ones. And I think you know what I mean.
It's not so much how manly some of these women can be, it's the feminist side of them that can cause problems. You have to walk on eggshells with some of them. What I mean by this is that say we are enroute and having some small talk. I may mention that the satellite guy is coming out to put in some new wiring in my house. SOME of these women may quickly correct you and tell you right out that you are wrong. They'll question you to death about why do you think the service rep is going to be a man? Have I ever considered it could be a woman? Things like that.
It's like they have a chip on their shoulders and it makes for a rather uncomfortable work environment. I don't have this problem with male F/O's. And I am not saying that all women pilots are like this. But you get to know who they are and you try to bid other lines that they do, so you never see them. And that's the catch, you start getting pilots that don't like to fly with you and sooner or later the company will start investigating why quite a few other pilots don't like flying with you.
To me this behavior can be quite childish. In this day and age we can't really determine which sex ANYBODY you are going to be dealing with is these days. When I say the Satellite guy, I mean the satallite PERSON. It's just a habit I use to refer to people as guys.
There are some mighty fine female pilots out there. There is no question that they all can meet or exceed the standards for the certificates they carry.
It's not so much how manly some of these women can be, it's the feminist side of them that can cause problems. You have to walk on eggshells with some of them. What I mean by this is that say we are enroute and having some small talk. I may mention that the satellite guy is coming out to put in some new wiring in my house. SOME of these women may quickly correct you and tell you right out that you are wrong. They'll question you to death about why do you think the service rep is going to be a man? Have I ever considered it could be a woman? Things like that.
It's like they have a chip on their shoulders and it makes for a rather uncomfortable work environment. I don't have this problem with male F/O's. And I am not saying that all women pilots are like this. But you get to know who they are and you try to bid other lines that they do, so you never see them. And that's the catch, you start getting pilots that don't like to fly with you and sooner or later the company will start investigating why quite a few other pilots don't like flying with you.
To me this behavior can be quite childish. In this day and age we can't really determine which sex ANYBODY you are going to be dealing with is these days. When I say the Satellite guy, I mean the satallite PERSON. It's just a habit I use to refer to people as guys.
There are some mighty fine female pilots out there. There is no question that they all can meet or exceed the standards for the certificates they carry.
rocketwarrior
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Cool, Whirlcool.
Yeah, I think we are pretty much in tune on that. My point is that the stuff you are pointing out has nothing to do with the FOX morning after story and no relevance whatever (except for nonjournalistic spice)to the story. What is relevant to the story is your last sentence, "There is no question that they all can meet or exceed the standards for the certificates they carry" - which also does not have to be said by FOX because it is simply a given.
Yeah, I think we are pretty much in tune on that. My point is that the stuff you are pointing out has nothing to do with the FOX morning after story and no relevance whatever (except for nonjournalistic spice)to the story. What is relevant to the story is your last sentence, "There is no question that they all can meet or exceed the standards for the certificates they carry" - which also does not have to be said by FOX because it is simply a given.
whirlcool
Well-known member
I didn't see the FOX story you are referring to, but it sounds like they are playing into the "women are not as good pilots as men are thing". Just sensationalist reporting.
It's not too uncommon these days to see and entire female crew. Or women up front and men in the back. Sometimes passengers will ask questions about this, and we just joke with them. One story I heard about one of our female captains was when a passenger was boarding she saw the female captain standing by the cockpit door. She said, "Where is the GUY who is going to fly us?", the captain responded "My husband was late getting up so I put on his uniform and I'm going to fly us today!"
And as for qualifications it used to be women could get hired with less hours than men, but that has changed in the last decade. Women now need the same experience men do to be hired. And the pilot checkout and type currency recheck is pretty tough. So just by demonstration you can say that women pilots are totally equal and sometimes even better than their male collegues.
It's not too uncommon these days to see and entire female crew. Or women up front and men in the back. Sometimes passengers will ask questions about this, and we just joke with them. One story I heard about one of our female captains was when a passenger was boarding she saw the female captain standing by the cockpit door. She said, "Where is the GUY who is going to fly us?", the captain responded "My husband was late getting up so I put on his uniform and I'm going to fly us today!"
And as for qualifications it used to be women could get hired with less hours than men, but that has changed in the last decade. Women now need the same experience men do to be hired. And the pilot checkout and type currency recheck is pretty tough. So just by demonstration you can say that women pilots are totally equal and sometimes even better than their male collegues.
According to an NTSB spokesman, the CVR discussion during let-down includes comments about airframe ice. CDR shows anti-ice selected on before this comment was made.
Gear selected down and on final exagerated pitch and roll as flaps extended. Gear and flaps selected up and in transit at time recordings stopped.
Sounds icy to me. Especially the containment of wreckage to such a small area, consistent with little forward movement.And the nearly immediate change in handling characteristics when the flaps were extended. (Speculation on my part.)
Gear selected down and on final exagerated pitch and roll as flaps extended. Gear and flaps selected up and in transit at time recordings stopped.
Sounds icy to me. Especially the containment of wreckage to such a small area, consistent with little forward movement.And the nearly immediate change in handling characteristics when the flaps were extended. (Speculation on my part.)
CORRECTION:
In the last post I typed in CDR and meant FDR.
Also failed to mention the pitch and roll began after flaps 15 extension.
In the last post I typed in CDR and meant FDR.
Also failed to mention the pitch and roll began after flaps 15 extension.
pturo
New member
I think Gyrfoam is right, but to add to it, wings and flaps can accumulate ice that a pilot cannot see,and do so quickly, as the weather up here in CNY was changing on a front of about 50 degrees to 30 degrees on the ground and probably more dramatic at 2500 feet. Conditons on the ground even driving were shitty.
So, if their wings were designed for a minimal speed aloft of say 120 knots for landing and they had lets say 160 knots then the landing gear going down slowed them down to a perceived 120 knot level, and with the increasing ice on the wings, to an airspeed way below that acutally, it was a pitch and roll. The mass was too heavy for the forward motion to sustain it above the pull of gravity. It seemed the landing gear was the slow down that with included with the weight of ice, was not calculated in the airspeed,or could not be,based on how fast the freezing rain was falling.
It was sad. That airport should have been shut down. Many prior landings reported significant "rind", and it was a windy night.
So, if their wings were designed for a minimal speed aloft of say 120 knots for landing and they had lets say 160 knots then the landing gear going down slowed them down to a perceived 120 knot level, and with the increasing ice on the wings, to an airspeed way below that acutally, it was a pitch and roll. The mass was too heavy for the forward motion to sustain it above the pull of gravity. It seemed the landing gear was the slow down that with included with the weight of ice, was not calculated in the airspeed,or could not be,based on how fast the freezing rain was falling.
It was sad. That airport should have been shut down. Many prior landings reported significant "rind", and it was a windy night.
twinniefan
Well-known member
So much tragedy the last 2 weeks
Boy oh boy, 2009 is not off to a good start we have possibly as many as 300 people dead in Victoria's bushfires down here and now these poor folk on the plane,so much tragedy in the last 2 weeks.
Condolences to all the families of the crash victims and I sincerely hope no one from here was involved or any of your families.
Steve.
Boy oh boy, 2009 is not off to a good start we have possibly as many as 300 people dead in Victoria's bushfires down here and now these poor folk on the plane,so much tragedy in the last 2 weeks.
Condolences to all the families of the crash victims and I sincerely hope no one from here was involved or any of your families.
Steve.
whirlcool
Well-known member
You got the idea right.
What happens with icing, especially rime ice, is that it distorts the airflow over the wing resulting in loss of lift as well as adding weight to an aircraft.
Say a wing will stall at 90knts, so you keep your speed up to about 1.5% of stall speed on final approach. You pick up ice. Then due to the loss of lift, the 90knts stall speed can suddenly become 120knts. The more ice you have the higher the stall speed becomes. When you detect ice you activate the anti-icing systems. They should clear the ice off of the plane. But in heavy icing conditions they may not get rid of it all. So while you are setting the plane up for landing (flaps, gear, etc) so then you start to slow that aircraft down for landing and suddenly you find that due to ice you are stalling. The fact that the gear was up points to the fact that the pilots were trying to reconfigure the aircraft for a go around and climb out, but the aircraft stalled on them and they were too low for recovery.
From what I can guess is that the crew on this aircraft did everything right and still crashed. They had their icing systems on at the first hint of ice. They discussed the icing conditions so both the captain and the first officer were on the same operational page. They most likely didn't see this coming. I think that we are going to find that this aircraft couldn't cope with the icing conditions they were flying in.
What happens with icing, especially rime ice, is that it distorts the airflow over the wing resulting in loss of lift as well as adding weight to an aircraft.
Say a wing will stall at 90knts, so you keep your speed up to about 1.5% of stall speed on final approach. You pick up ice. Then due to the loss of lift, the 90knts stall speed can suddenly become 120knts. The more ice you have the higher the stall speed becomes. When you detect ice you activate the anti-icing systems. They should clear the ice off of the plane. But in heavy icing conditions they may not get rid of it all. So while you are setting the plane up for landing (flaps, gear, etc) so then you start to slow that aircraft down for landing and suddenly you find that due to ice you are stalling. The fact that the gear was up points to the fact that the pilots were trying to reconfigure the aircraft for a go around and climb out, but the aircraft stalled on them and they were too low for recovery.
From what I can guess is that the crew on this aircraft did everything right and still crashed. They had their icing systems on at the first hint of ice. They discussed the icing conditions so both the captain and the first officer were on the same operational page. They most likely didn't see this coming. I think that we are going to find that this aircraft couldn't cope with the icing conditions they were flying in.
Thanks Whirlcool
First for spelling "rime" ice, i did not understand what they were saying on TV. If you see propellers on a plane i think the airline calls them jet props, does that mean you get that pneumatic boot set up? Its very scary, I was so relieved when they started using "jet" service into Spf/branson.alr2903
First for spelling "rime" ice, i did not understand what they were saying on TV. If you see propellers on a plane i think the airline calls them jet props, does that mean you get that pneumatic boot set up? Its very scary, I was so relieved when they started using "jet" service into Spf/branson.alr2903
whirlcool
Well-known member
Deicing boots are used on small to medium sized turboprop planes and normally aspirated aircraft.
Another thing about using deicing boots is not to use them too often. What they are like is a condom along the leading edge of the wing. When ice starts sticking to the wing you activate them and air is pumped into the boots and then the boot inflates, cracking and pushing the ice off of the wings. You cycle them rather than leave them on. If you leave them inflated too long the ice will stick to them inflated and then you no longer have any ice protection and they can no longer fracture the ice.
Those Q400 planes are rather large aircraft. Horizon Airlines has been flying them for years without incident. I think investigators will be looking at the FDR to see if they were being properly used in this incident.
Another thing about using deicing boots is not to use them too often. What they are like is a condom along the leading edge of the wing. When ice starts sticking to the wing you activate them and air is pumped into the boots and then the boot inflates, cracking and pushing the ice off of the wings. You cycle them rather than leave them on. If you leave them inflated too long the ice will stick to them inflated and then you no longer have any ice protection and they can no longer fracture the ice.
Those Q400 planes are rather large aircraft. Horizon Airlines has been flying them for years without incident. I think investigators will be looking at the FDR to see if they were being properly used in this incident.
mother nature
red of tooth and claw, always wins.
She not only makes the rules, she is the 'house' to borrow a phrase from Casino.
I was driving up I-25 yesterday. Went from 75 miles an hour, clear and frost free to seeing 14 wrecks (not caused by the same wreck) on one side of the road, four on my side and total white out within less than 20 seconds. I slowed down as fast as conditions would allow, as did the trailer-truck swaying in front of me, got passed on the right by young assholes who flipped my off for going slow...then rolled their car right off the road.
That is the way things are - I feel sorry for those folks (in the plane, if those breeders broke their necks, no hu-hu). We need to improve our weather predictive technology.
red of tooth and claw, always wins.
She not only makes the rules, she is the 'house' to borrow a phrase from Casino.
I was driving up I-25 yesterday. Went from 75 miles an hour, clear and frost free to seeing 14 wrecks (not caused by the same wreck) on one side of the road, four on my side and total white out within less than 20 seconds. I slowed down as fast as conditions would allow, as did the trailer-truck swaying in front of me, got passed on the right by young assholes who flipped my off for going slow...then rolled their car right off the road.
That is the way things are - I feel sorry for those folks (in the plane, if those breeders broke their necks, no hu-hu). We need to improve our weather predictive technology.
