Gone is the tower through the middle, but the Calrod heating element has yet to appear and we now have Spray Rub action. My father's mother used to say that she had put a load of laundry "in to rub" in the washer, but GE's use of the word rub for dishes is rather singular in dishwasher terminology AFAIK. The Calrod only was used in this machine a couple of years, I think, before the undercounter roll out models appeared.
POD 3/16/12 GE post WWII top loading DW
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Help Support :
"Spray Rub" washing???
Who are they kidding by flinging hot water at dishes that you MUST clean before you put them inside!
Just another one of those talking points for sales staff I say! We had the 1961 Roll Out with "intensive splashing action" most useless DW ever! I don't know why we kept it till 1974!!! My Mother scrubbed dishes for 13 extra years! I should have been more forward with them regarding my appliance-abilities! Would have saved a lot of work! Hindsight is 15-20!
Who are they kidding by flinging hot water at dishes that you MUST clean before you put them inside!
Just another one of those talking points for sales staff I say! We had the 1961 Roll Out with "intensive splashing action" most useless DW ever! I don't know why we kept it till 1974!!! My Mother scrubbed dishes for 13 extra years! I should have been more forward with them regarding my appliance-abilities! Would have saved a lot of work! Hindsight is 15-20!
arbilab
Well-known member
I only expect the DW to remove grease film. I take the chunky stuff off beforehand. And guess what? On the short cycle, with 120F water and today's weakened detergents, I get perfect results.
Even restaurants with horsepower Hobarts scrape and spray dishes before handing them to the DW. Why do domestic users expect their machine to do things industrial users don't?
Even restaurants with horsepower Hobarts scrape and spray dishes before handing them to the DW. Why do domestic users expect their machine to do things industrial users don't?
macboy91si
Well-known member
Pre-rinsing
To me at that point why bother with a dishwasher? I'll scrape remaining food off of the plate, but anything else is in the machine. We have 140 degree water heat and I always use the "water-heat" option, even on an 18" Frigidaire I get good results (and it's a crappy dishwasher). The machine has a macerator in it and does several water changes.I was always told that pre-rinsing shortened the life of the seals in a home DW. wouldn't rinse my clothes in the sink before I washed them, that's why I have an appliance to do it (or several in my case).
A friend has a B&B and has what I think is one of those under counter Hobarts and I'm pretty sure the stuff just goes in as is. But I don't know about commercial stuff, I gather commercial vs. home is apples to oranges.
-Tim
To me at that point why bother with a dishwasher? I'll scrape remaining food off of the plate, but anything else is in the machine. We have 140 degree water heat and I always use the "water-heat" option, even on an 18" Frigidaire I get good results (and it's a crappy dishwasher). The machine has a macerator in it and does several water changes.I was always told that pre-rinsing shortened the life of the seals in a home DW. wouldn't rinse my clothes in the sink before I washed them, that's why I have an appliance to do it (or several in my case).
A friend has a B&B and has what I think is one of those under counter Hobarts and I'm pretty sure the stuff just goes in as is. But I don't know about commercial stuff, I gather commercial vs. home is apples to oranges.
-Tim
Jon, many of us had experience with the bow tie impeller GEs and we found that they were fantastic at cleaning and drying. Yours is the first negative report I have heard on them. Our neighbor had a set meal for each night of the week. My favorite was country fried steak with beans and smashed potatoes. The 2.5 quart MirroMatic still containg streaks of the potatoes, she served with a spoon and did not use a rubber spatula to get the last bits, went in the GE and emerged spotless as did other pans and dishes. Maybe you had hard water or poor detergent if you did not get great cleaning out of that machine.
toploader55
Well-known member
Tom...
I'm with you on the BowTie. We had one from 1961-1970 and that machine did very well without prerinsing or prewashing.
(90%) Positive results unless I through something in there as a Child and Mom didn't know about it.
I'm with you on the BowTie. We had one from 1961-1970 and that machine did very well without prerinsing or prewashing.
(90%) Positive results unless I through something in there as a Child and Mom didn't know about it.
arbilab
Well-known member
I was operator-in-chief for 2 bowtie Hotpoints in the 50s. Ya use warm water and a Fuller brush to get the chunks off and the machine to get the grease off.
Restaurants use a needlepoint HOT water spray before loading their Hobarts. Which have 6 times the power an energy-star home machine has. Their industrial detergent is likely superior to what grocery stores sell. Their cycle times are MUCH shorter. They don't dry. They wash 200 racks in the same time a home machine might finish one. They cost up to $10,000.
So no you can't directly compare an industrial machine to a home machine. But I can use my home machine like an industrial if it works for me. Actually I seldom use it for more than a dripdry rack. One person doesn't generate enough dirty dishes to justify the machine. Thanksgiving maybe. I run it twice a year anyway just to get the cobwebs out.
Restaurants use a needlepoint HOT water spray before loading their Hobarts. Which have 6 times the power an energy-star home machine has. Their industrial detergent is likely superior to what grocery stores sell. Their cycle times are MUCH shorter. They don't dry. They wash 200 racks in the same time a home machine might finish one. They cost up to $10,000.
So no you can't directly compare an industrial machine to a home machine. But I can use my home machine like an industrial if it works for me. Actually I seldom use it for more than a dripdry rack. One person doesn't generate enough dirty dishes to justify the machine. Thanksgiving maybe. I run it twice a year anyway just to get the cobwebs out.
I was not aware that Hotpoint ever used the bow tie impeller. Do tell us more. Shortly after GE started using the bow tie, Hotpoint introduced their wash arm on the upper end machines.
arbilab
Well-known member
Two new houses, built 1953 and 1957 with all Hotpoint builtins. 1/4hp motor direct driving bakelite impeller in tub. Biggest diff between them was the 57 had one-piece water valve and 53 was an assembly of valve, dashpot, and open solenoid.
Dishwasher cleaning performace
To arlab why do I expect DWs to clean food away, because every DW I have ever had does so, if the food doesn't fall off the plates etc it goes in the DW. My DWs dispose of pounds of food every month, commercial machines need food removed because they all have filters where most of the food would stay and they have very short cycles. Home DWs usually have cycle times of 45 minutes to over two hours. With a good home machine you can finish a meal and set the food covered dishes out in the sun for a week or in a 250 degree oven for a few hours and everything will come perfectly clean without wasting one cup of water pre-rinsing, and best of all my kitchen sink stays clean.
To arlab why do I expect DWs to clean food away, because every DW I have ever had does so, if the food doesn't fall off the plates etc it goes in the DW. My DWs dispose of pounds of food every month, commercial machines need food removed because they all have filters where most of the food would stay and they have very short cycles. Home DWs usually have cycle times of 45 minutes to over two hours. With a good home machine you can finish a meal and set the food covered dishes out in the sun for a week or in a 250 degree oven for a few hours and everything will come perfectly clean without wasting one cup of water pre-rinsing, and best of all my kitchen sink stays clean.
arbilab
Well-known member
It's OK to operate your DW as you see fit. I'm appliance OCD. I jump up every time it drains, to run hot in the sink so the fills aren't half cold and so the cycle doesn't stretch waiting for the calrod to heat it. Love to know how many users go to that extent.
Arbilab, the Hotpoint Bakelite impeller is not the bow tie impeller which was stainless steel and of a very different shape. We have put forward the hypothesis that the metal impeller cleaned better principally because the leading edge of the impeller remained sharper than that of the Bakelite which dulled over time from the wear to the plastic which is softer than the metal and because of its shape. The sharper edge allowed the metal impeller to pick up more water. Robert still has, I believe, a Westinghouse DW which has a metal impeller shaped differently than the Bakelite impeller in most WH dws (the only model so manufactured it seems) and he reported great cleaning from it, even with the cycle of one wash and two rinses.
Dishwasher cleaning performace
To Arelad I operate my WP Power-Clean DWs exactly as the users manual suggests and the machine is going strong after almost 25 years. Jumping up to run and running the hot water tap every time the machine won't hurt anything [ it may wear out your kitchen faucet ] but its a great waste of water and energy and likely does no good at all.
To Arelad I operate my WP Power-Clean DWs exactly as the users manual suggests and the machine is going strong after almost 25 years. Jumping up to run and running the hot water tap every time the machine won't hurt anything [ it may wear out your kitchen faucet ] but its a great waste of water and energy and likely does no good at all.
arbilab
Well-known member
Tom, I admit I didn't know the nomenclature. These impellers had two pitched blades and two flat blades and were bakelite. I must never have encountered the "true" bowtie.
Combo, I think I said above my hot water is only 120F which saves substantially over time but is insufficient to allow the DW to fill with half cold water as the pipes clear and still operate properly. 90F won't even dissolve powdered detergents, eh? So it's OCD with a purpose, not just for its own sake.
Combo, I think I said above my hot water is only 120F which saves substantially over time but is insufficient to allow the DW to fill with half cold water as the pipes clear and still operate properly. 90F won't even dissolve powdered detergents, eh? So it's OCD with a purpose, not just for its own sake.
Hotpoint had bowtie impeller top-loading portable dishwashers for a while. As you would imagine, they were simply re-badged Mobile Maids. I have some literature on them somewhere which I will dig out as I clean the house. It'll only take me a couple of years.
I can't vouch for the cleaning ability of our wonderful GE Custom-4 cycle built-in which was also in use from 1961 to 1972 because, as I've said many times before, my Mother hand washed every piece before it went in. But I can tell you that there wasn't one living organism on anything that was washed in that machine; those dishes came out of that pink tank piping hot and we were using the old Dishwasher ALL. And remember, the Medical School of the University of Louisville Kentucky stands by that claim. And I bet they washed a ton of "Hot Browns" in those machines.
The reason most restaurant flesh and blood dishwashers pre-rinse everything that goes in a restaurant dish machine is because those machines are mostly for sanitation; the wash cycles are only a couple of minutes long. And even then they get most of everything off of glasses and china. Flatware usually sits in a soaking solution until the end of the night or until the manager runs out. In my dream kitchen I will have an undercounter Hobart or Jackson; I see no virtue in hand dishwashing.
I can't vouch for the cleaning ability of our wonderful GE Custom-4 cycle built-in which was also in use from 1961 to 1972 because, as I've said many times before, my Mother hand washed every piece before it went in. But I can tell you that there wasn't one living organism on anything that was washed in that machine; those dishes came out of that pink tank piping hot and we were using the old Dishwasher ALL. And remember, the Medical School of the University of Louisville Kentucky stands by that claim. And I bet they washed a ton of "Hot Browns" in those machines.
The reason most restaurant flesh and blood dishwashers pre-rinse everything that goes in a restaurant dish machine is because those machines are mostly for sanitation; the wash cycles are only a couple of minutes long. And even then they get most of everything off of glasses and china. Flatware usually sits in a soaking solution until the end of the night or until the manager runs out. In my dream kitchen I will have an undercounter Hobart or Jackson; I see no virtue in hand dishwashing.
Dishwasher cleaning performace
I see no virtue in hand dish washing, Amen Ken
arbilab, what brand and model DW are you using? all US machines since the early 1980s are required to operate properly on 120 degree water temp if you select the correct cycle for such use. In my weekend and my partners house [ which are both all electric ] we keep the water set around 120 and we get great results out of all four DWs in those two homes by using the correct cycle, etc.
I see no virtue in hand dish washing, Amen Ken
arbilab, what brand and model DW are you using? all US machines since the early 1980s are required to operate properly on 120 degree water temp if you select the correct cycle for such use. In my weekend and my partners house [ which are both all electric ] we keep the water set around 120 and we get great results out of all four DWs in those two homes by using the correct cycle, etc.
arbilab
Well-known member
It's a GE Potscrubber 640. Yes, if 'potscrubber' is selected it will heat its own water from whatever temp enters it, if you're willing to wait that long. But only for the main wash. Every other fill operates at the temp at which it enters. Not to be stuffy, but trust me, I've read the schematic, I know EXACTLY what it does.
Purpose of the metal bow-tie impeller
I saw an ad for a GE bow-tie machine in an old magazine. GE claimed it's new bow-tie impeller, with the knife-blade edged tip, was designed to chop-up food wastes so dishes did not have to be pre-rinsed.
I don't recall the exact figure, but I believe it said the machine could dispose of up to two cups of solid food wastes.
Like Combo John, I do not generally scrape dishes, but just tip off the solids. Why, because that's the way the machines are designed. Running excessive water to rinse dishes or dispose of wastes in the disposer, when the dishwasher is quite capable of doing this, seems a bit wasteful of resources, not to mention money. Almost literally money down the drain.
Engineers designed soft and hard food waste disposers in dishwashers to do just that. If a dishwasher cannot dispose of food wastes, it is not a dish "washer" but just a machine that splashes water on dishes.
It seems like every few months I get on my soapbox about some (but not all) of these modern "dishwashers" that have no built-in disposer. These are "displashers", not "dishwashers."
Personally, I do not want my dishes washed and rinsed in water filtered through putrifying garbage. This is what happens in some of these modern machines when dishes are not rinsed by hand. Every drop of wash and rinse water is being filtered through food remains trapped in the filter.
So when you add in the cost of rinsing your dishes, running water to dispose of wastes down the disposer, and the cost of the electricity to run the disposer which, I suspect invalidates the U.S. Department of Energy energy use rating of the machine.
I saw an ad for a GE bow-tie machine in an old magazine. GE claimed it's new bow-tie impeller, with the knife-blade edged tip, was designed to chop-up food wastes so dishes did not have to be pre-rinsed.
I don't recall the exact figure, but I believe it said the machine could dispose of up to two cups of solid food wastes.
Like Combo John, I do not generally scrape dishes, but just tip off the solids. Why, because that's the way the machines are designed. Running excessive water to rinse dishes or dispose of wastes in the disposer, when the dishwasher is quite capable of doing this, seems a bit wasteful of resources, not to mention money. Almost literally money down the drain.
Engineers designed soft and hard food waste disposers in dishwashers to do just that. If a dishwasher cannot dispose of food wastes, it is not a dish "washer" but just a machine that splashes water on dishes.
It seems like every few months I get on my soapbox about some (but not all) of these modern "dishwashers" that have no built-in disposer. These are "displashers", not "dishwashers."
Personally, I do not want my dishes washed and rinsed in water filtered through putrifying garbage. This is what happens in some of these modern machines when dishes are not rinsed by hand. Every drop of wash and rinse water is being filtered through food remains trapped in the filter.
So when you add in the cost of rinsing your dishes, running water to dispose of wastes down the disposer, and the cost of the electricity to run the disposer which, I suspect invalidates the U.S. Department of Energy energy use rating of the machine.
Tom
You are right we had very hard water and then when we got a water softener Mom disconnected it from the sink line as she read the lack of minerals and higher sodium content was not good to drink. So that GE bow tie always ran with hard water. When we got the KA 17 that cleaned better. But the glassware still ended up etched after a few years.
The bow tie was noisy too, it ROARED when operating.
You are right we had very hard water and then when we got a water softener Mom disconnected it from the sink line as she read the lack of minerals and higher sodium content was not good to drink. So that GE bow tie always ran with hard water. When we got the KA 17 that cleaned better. But the glassware still ended up etched after a few years.
The bow tie was noisy too, it ROARED when operating.
I think the built-in bow ties had to be quieter than the mobile maids. The inside walls of the installation cabinets of the built ins had panels of black insulation material (asbestos) as was the inside of the front panel. Ours was very quiet
toploader55
Well-known member
GE Bow Ties
My Mother used to describe our Princess as "A Mack Truck idling in the kitchen".
My Mother used to describe our Princess as "A Mack Truck idling in the kitchen".
On nights when our Mobile Maid was really full mom used to remark about how much quieter it was. It was loud, but it washed dishes. Even thought it was a portable without a surrounding cabinet to help muffle noise, it was not as noisy as the impeller model built-in Hotpoint some friends had. It roared.
To Barry's comments about hand rinsing: Did anyone notice how thoroughly the owners of the KA & WP dishwashers that got in trouble for smoking in the kitchen rinsed all traces of food off the dishes before loading them? Sometimes I think that wonderful appliances shoud be priced to keep them out of the hands of "stupidians" who don't believe that dishwashers can clean dirty dishes.
To Barry's comments about hand rinsing: Did anyone notice how thoroughly the owners of the KA & WP dishwashers that got in trouble for smoking in the kitchen rinsed all traces of food off the dishes before loading them? Sometimes I think that wonderful appliances shoud be priced to keep them out of the hands of "stupidians" who don't believe that dishwashers can clean dirty dishes.
Mom had the snoftened water disconnected from the kitchen
Jon how could she have done that for the DWs water supply without installing a 2nd water heater?, Normally when people are concerned with getting too much sodium from the water they drink or cook with they just disconnect the cold water from the softened water supply from the kitchen cold water tap. This is what my parents did in Minnesota because of my fathers high blood pressure.
Jon how could she have done that for the DWs water supply without installing a 2nd water heater?, Normally when people are concerned with getting too much sodium from the water they drink or cook with they just disconnect the cold water from the softened water supply from the kitchen cold water tap. This is what my parents did in Minnesota because of my fathers high blood pressure.
arbilab
Well-known member
running water to dispose of wastes down the disposer, and the cost of the electricity to run the disposer....
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sorry, but that's sheer imagination. The cost of water to run a disposer is something like three-thousandths of a nickel. The cost of running a 1HP/8A disposer for one minute @$0.15/KWh is $0.0025. A quarter of a cent. 7.5c/month. Anyone that hard up ottn't be running a 300W computer.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sorry, but that's sheer imagination. The cost of water to run a disposer is something like three-thousandths of a nickel. The cost of running a 1HP/8A disposer for one minute @$0.15/KWh is $0.0025. A quarter of a cent. 7.5c/month. Anyone that hard up ottn't be running a 300W computer.
One thing that I think was revolutionary about the Bow Tie GE DWs was the flush away drain. It was, I believe, the first application of a reversing motor to power an integral drain pump. All of the impeller dishwashers up to that point used a separate, small drain pump which had a strainer to keep debris out of the pump. The GE ground up food particles and flushed them away, not only with a complete emptying of the drain pump chamber, but also with a sub interval switch in the timer that gave a 3 to 5 second purge by activating the fill valve near the end of the drain period to move along any left behind stuff, but not left behind people. Enough water was admitted that the pump sent additional water out through the Unicouple's drain hose.
easyspindry
Well-known member
I knew a lady who . . .
. . . had a 1956 built-in Hotpoint dishwasher. It was her first, and she loved it. It cleaned beautifully. She was an excellent cook, and that was during the time that families had a dinner meal all gathered around the table together. That dishwasher did a wonderful job for many years.
Our first dishwasher was a GE Mobile Maid with the metal bow tie impeller. It was wonderful!!! But NOISE!!! My lord, you couldn't hear yourself think when it was running. AND, as it washed, it actually shook because the water currents were so strong.
We used that dishwasher many years until my parents decided to get a built-in one which was the first Maytag reverse rack machine. That was a fine cleaner also, however somewhat limited as to what size pots would fit.
The bow tie was a great cleaner. We don't pre-wash our dishes, but they get scraped and quickly rinsed under running water. I have never expected my dishwasher to act as a garbage disposer.
Jerry Gay
. . . had a 1956 built-in Hotpoint dishwasher. It was her first, and she loved it. It cleaned beautifully. She was an excellent cook, and that was during the time that families had a dinner meal all gathered around the table together. That dishwasher did a wonderful job for many years.
Our first dishwasher was a GE Mobile Maid with the metal bow tie impeller. It was wonderful!!! But NOISE!!! My lord, you couldn't hear yourself think when it was running. AND, as it washed, it actually shook because the water currents were so strong.
We used that dishwasher many years until my parents decided to get a built-in one which was the first Maytag reverse rack machine. That was a fine cleaner also, however somewhat limited as to what size pots would fit.
The bow tie was a great cleaner. We don't pre-wash our dishes, but they get scraped and quickly rinsed under running water. I have never expected my dishwasher to act as a garbage disposer.
Jerry Gay
pre-rinsing
Don't be sorry, Arbilab as the imagination is yours, not mine.
It's not just the water used for the disposer, but it's also the water used to pre-rinse dishes. People who rinse their dishes prior to loading, often often hold them under a running stream of water while the disposer is on.
Since most kitchen faucets can deliver about 2 gallons a minute, this can add up to more water used by the dishwasher in it's entire cycle.
Even if someone scraped very meticulously, without pre-rinsing, and only used the diposer for one minute, as you stated, 2 gallons of water is about one third of the water usage of many modern dishwashers. This additional water, if added to the true cost of using the dishwasher, would negatively alter the government energy use rating of the machine substantially.
As far as one keeping the hot water heater set at 120 degrees F, remember there is
a temperature drop as water goes through piping. Depending on the architecture of the house, there can be a sizeable temperature diferential between what is in the hot water tank and what comes out of the kitchen faucet and dishwasher water inlet. Especially for homes where the pipes are in a concrete slab or there is a long run from the hw tank to the kitchen. One can lose 10 degrees or more.
Although, I can be quite frugal at times, I don't mind spending a little money on cleanliness. I keep the hot water tank set about 146 degrees. When it reaches my kitchen, it is about 138-140 deg F. Dishes normally come out of the dishwasher sparkling and I don't worry about bacterial transmission by way of dishes especially when having lots of company.
,
Likewise, whites come out very nicely in the laundry, as I wash them in hot water, and I don't have to worry about using lots of detergent to get out body oils and perspiration, etc.
I have a super insulated GE water heater, from Homee Depot, and thus have low energy bills.
Someone asinine enough, to have water temps so low they have to run water in their kitchen sink for each fill of the dishwasher is one who probably the person who shouldn't have a dishwasher.
Don't be sorry, Arbilab as the imagination is yours, not mine.
It's not just the water used for the disposer, but it's also the water used to pre-rinse dishes. People who rinse their dishes prior to loading, often often hold them under a running stream of water while the disposer is on.
Since most kitchen faucets can deliver about 2 gallons a minute, this can add up to more water used by the dishwasher in it's entire cycle.
Even if someone scraped very meticulously, without pre-rinsing, and only used the diposer for one minute, as you stated, 2 gallons of water is about one third of the water usage of many modern dishwashers. This additional water, if added to the true cost of using the dishwasher, would negatively alter the government energy use rating of the machine substantially.
As far as one keeping the hot water heater set at 120 degrees F, remember there is
a temperature drop as water goes through piping. Depending on the architecture of the house, there can be a sizeable temperature diferential between what is in the hot water tank and what comes out of the kitchen faucet and dishwasher water inlet. Especially for homes where the pipes are in a concrete slab or there is a long run from the hw tank to the kitchen. One can lose 10 degrees or more.
Although, I can be quite frugal at times, I don't mind spending a little money on cleanliness. I keep the hot water tank set about 146 degrees. When it reaches my kitchen, it is about 138-140 deg F. Dishes normally come out of the dishwasher sparkling and I don't worry about bacterial transmission by way of dishes especially when having lots of company.
,
Likewise, whites come out very nicely in the laundry, as I wash them in hot water, and I don't have to worry about using lots of detergent to get out body oils and perspiration, etc.
I have a super insulated GE water heater, from Homee Depot, and thus have low energy bills.
Someone asinine enough, to have water temps so low they have to run water in their kitchen sink for each fill of the dishwasher is one who probably the person who shouldn't have a dishwasher.
arbilab
Well-known member
Well b, you might as well abandon the sales pitch. You're not going to alter my habits any more than I'm going to alter yours. But don't delude yourself, you're only looking at the costs/economies of your perspective. Keeping 40 gallons at 146F costs substantially more than keeping it at 120F. My tank is double insulated too. 146F is dangerous to children but I don't have any and I take it you don't either so we'll let that slide. I like 120F tapwater and in my house that's what it's going to be. If I have to dance around the DW to accomodate that then so be it. I scarcely use it anyway, as I already said.
If a DW uses 2 gallons/fill and half of that is room temp 70F, your 146F hands-off fills are 108F and the calrod is making up the difference and stretching your cycle 20-30 minutes which ain't free.
If a DW uses 2 gallons/fill and half of that is room temp 70F, your 146F hands-off fills are 108F and the calrod is making up the difference and stretching your cycle 20-30 minutes which ain't free.
Something that can be dangerous about keeping water stored at 120F is that it can allow germs to live in faucets and showerheads like the bacteria Legionella. The following table shows the effect of temperature on the bug.
Temperature affects the survival of Legionella as follows:[21]
70 to 80 °C (158 to 176 °F): Disinfection range
At 66 °C (151 °F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
At 60 °C (140 °F): They die within 32 minutes
At 55 °C (131 °F): They die within 5 to 6 hours
Above 50 °C (122 °F): They can survive but do not multiply
35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F): Ideal growth range
20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F): Growth range
Below 20 °C (68 °F): They can survive but are dormant
If you shower or use a faucet with warm water, the surviving bacteria can be aerosolized and inhaled into the lungs. Bacteria can also attach and grow in these areas that remain moist like inside a showerhead.
Temperature affects the survival of Legionella as follows:[21]
70 to 80 °C (158 to 176 °F): Disinfection range
At 66 °C (151 °F): Legionellae die within 2 minutes
At 60 °C (140 °F): They die within 32 minutes
At 55 °C (131 °F): They die within 5 to 6 hours
Above 50 °C (122 °F): They can survive but do not multiply
35 to 46 °C (95 to 115 °F): Ideal growth range
20 to 50 °C (68 to 122 °F): Growth range
Below 20 °C (68 °F): They can survive but are dormant
If you shower or use a faucet with warm water, the surviving bacteria can be aerosolized and inhaled into the lungs. Bacteria can also attach and grow in these areas that remain moist like inside a showerhead.
continuation of water temps
I am using a GE right now, also, and it only heats the water on the main wash. There are are three pre-rinses prior to the main wash. By this time, the cooler water has flushed from the lines, and the lines and interior of the dishwasher are substantially warmer than room temp or 108 degrees.
In fact, the first two pre-rinses are quite short and the cool down of the household piping in between fills, is minimal in that time. I have not put a thermocouple in the DW tub, but by the time the third pre-rinse initiates, the inlet water temp is most likely at or near its max temp, and steam is present.
The GE Potscrubber does not use 2 gallons/fill. It's approximately 1.2 gallons, with some variance due to the household water pressure.
Even so, the "calrod" heating element does come on shortly during the main wash, but my water is hot enough, it adds only about 5 to 7 minutes, based on the times GE has posted on the schematic, for the various cycle configurations.
If your water heater, Arbilab, is set at 120, you are not getting 120 at the dishwasher water inlet, nor at your faucets. I have no idea of your plumbing configuration (that is, your household plumbing, hehe), but you could easily be getting 110 deg or cooler water entering your dishwasher.
GE's are not designed to cope with water temperatures this low, and will default, after a predetermined time, if it is not able to get the wash water up to temp.
You have set parameters, such as using the disposer for "one minute" that seem to be biased if favor of your viewpoint. There are many variables to be considered that you have not accounted for, or did not state.
How many people in the household? Is the disposer used for breakfast, lunch and dinner meals? Does the person rinse each dish under a continue flow of water while the disposer runs (which I have seen many do)? Is that one minute an average and is it accounting for occasional entertaining?
On a personal level, I think its fine if you like water below 120 degrees coming out of your faucet, and I am not trying to convince you to change. I am just looking at the issue in general.
If you are truly looking at economics, all studies I have ever read indicate that handwashing, is more wasteful of water and energy than using an automatic dishwasher.
If you are looking at general health and cleanliness issues, these have been addressed in studies over the years also, and once again, dishwashers are the winner.
You can keep your water coming out of your faucets at 110 degrees and I'll keep my coming out at 138-140. Different strokes, for different folks, as they say. If we were all alike, the world would be a boring place.
I am using a GE right now, also, and it only heats the water on the main wash. There are are three pre-rinses prior to the main wash. By this time, the cooler water has flushed from the lines, and the lines and interior of the dishwasher are substantially warmer than room temp or 108 degrees.
In fact, the first two pre-rinses are quite short and the cool down of the household piping in between fills, is minimal in that time. I have not put a thermocouple in the DW tub, but by the time the third pre-rinse initiates, the inlet water temp is most likely at or near its max temp, and steam is present.
The GE Potscrubber does not use 2 gallons/fill. It's approximately 1.2 gallons, with some variance due to the household water pressure.
Even so, the "calrod" heating element does come on shortly during the main wash, but my water is hot enough, it adds only about 5 to 7 minutes, based on the times GE has posted on the schematic, for the various cycle configurations.
If your water heater, Arbilab, is set at 120, you are not getting 120 at the dishwasher water inlet, nor at your faucets. I have no idea of your plumbing configuration (that is, your household plumbing, hehe), but you could easily be getting 110 deg or cooler water entering your dishwasher.
GE's are not designed to cope with water temperatures this low, and will default, after a predetermined time, if it is not able to get the wash water up to temp.
You have set parameters, such as using the disposer for "one minute" that seem to be biased if favor of your viewpoint. There are many variables to be considered that you have not accounted for, or did not state.
How many people in the household? Is the disposer used for breakfast, lunch and dinner meals? Does the person rinse each dish under a continue flow of water while the disposer runs (which I have seen many do)? Is that one minute an average and is it accounting for occasional entertaining?
On a personal level, I think its fine if you like water below 120 degrees coming out of your faucet, and I am not trying to convince you to change. I am just looking at the issue in general.
If you are truly looking at economics, all studies I have ever read indicate that handwashing, is more wasteful of water and energy than using an automatic dishwasher.
If you are looking at general health and cleanliness issues, these have been addressed in studies over the years also, and once again, dishwashers are the winner.
You can keep your water coming out of your faucets at 110 degrees and I'll keep my coming out at 138-140. Different strokes, for different folks, as they say. If we were all alike, the world would be a boring place.
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