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Joyous occasion...

OMG Rich that is the best news I've heard all day. We need to have an AW celebration (in a new thread) and I hope you guys are having pictures done because we want to see them.

Yay x 100
 
I did not mean just you.
I realize that Mark, but I can only speak for me. My apology to you for using those terms is sincere. I would never want something as silly as words to come between us.

Oh? Really? You've been bashed by Christians, here, on your own website?
Ummmm, yeah I have, where have you been? Usually it happens around the last weekend in June ***scratches head****

Then why would you turn around and disrespect others for their own beliefs?
I think I need some education, how exactly did I "disrespect others for their own beliefs"? As far as I'm concerned I've never done that, but I'm open to hearing some examples of how I've done that.
 
"Ummmm, yeah I have, where have you been? Usually it happens around the last weekend in June ***scratches head****"

You've been bashed by Christians on your own website?

"I think I need some education, how exactly did I "disrespect others for their own beliefs"? As far as I'm concerned I've never done that, but I'm open to hearing some examples of how I've done that."

You don't need "education", as much as you need to realize that, the same tolerance you advocate for our opinions, you have to be willing to extend to those whose opinions you don't share.

And what's been done to us in the past does not need to be dredged up. There's a huge difference between protesting violence and literal bashings, open invective and hate on street corners, discrimination on the job, etc., and the political battle over marriage equality, something we've NEVER had.

If you stand up in defense of those who smear and defame peaceful, decent religious people, and you're in a position of any sort of power (i.e., this website), you're promoting that abuse, and that's not a bit different than those lemmings that support those who would hold our own collective interests back.

What you believe, what I believe, is all irrelevant. At least the pretense of respect should be upheld.
 
i am a huge supporter of same sex marriages and unions!

look at del and phyllis they prove that there is love and commitment and not some stupid notion that homosexuals are not good for marriage and have no commitment! I dont have to be gay to support the cause i mean look at the the straight couples generally we are never happy in a relationship and our divorce rates, infidelity are far higher. Straight marriages are a joke if britney spears or any of us straightees can go to vegas get married and then divorced in 55 hours! im all for gay rights!
rock on! im all for everyones equal rights because thats what america is suppose to stand on no?
 
To Oxy..

the same tolerance you advocate for our opinions, you have to be willing to extend to those whose opinions you don't share.
Actually I think I'm pretty damn "tolerant" around here, I rarely delete posts or censure posters, only in the most extreme cases. I've also taken some heat from other members for being overly tolerant of people who only post in confrontational super forum threads and rarely if ever have anything to add within the washer, dryer or dishwasher community. But I'll still be tolerant of them no mater how much "heat" and complaints I get about them.

If you stand up in defense of those who smear and defame peaceful, decent religious people,
Again I need some education, how exactly did I do that? Are you referring to what I said, or maybe what I didn't say, I have no idea what you mean. Examples please and less double talk.

At least the pretense of respect should be upheld.
At least here we agree.
 
they preach such a rant of tolerance.

I have been bashed by christians on this site, but I cannot recall if it was June or not. I was also called racist by one of them rather recently.....
 
Speaking of Education

And another thing, please read all 765+ reader comments in today's Los Angeles Times article, now here's a lesson in tolerance, not to mention why some of us might be a bit tired of the truly intolerant lately...

 
"And what's been done to us in the past does not need to be dredged up. There's a huge difference between protesting violence and literal bashings, open invective and hate on street corners, discrimination on the job, etc., and the political battle over marriage equality, something we've NEVER had."

This is double talk. Marriage equality is only one area where gay people don't enjoy equality. No straight man has ever been fired from a job because he's straight. Why is that different than marriage equality? In either case, it is the denial of rights, rights that protect. Same with gay bashing, same with the type of hate speech that occurs from certain pulpits. This equality, or protection, is something we've never had either, and many have suffered for it. So how is it different?

"If you stand up in defense of those who smear and defame peaceful, decent religious people, and you're in a position of any sort of power (i.e., this website), you're promoting that abuse, and that's not a bit different than those lemmings that support those who would hold our own collective interests back."

It's not the peaceful, decent religious people who are the problem, Scott. It's the zealots that see fit to rob "peaceful, decent homosexual people" of the very basic freedoms that they seem to take for granted. No one is promoting any type of abuse, Scott. What you describe is called censorship, and that's not what this forum is about, and never has been. It was established for discussions of any topic, and religion is just another topic, as is gay rights. No one has to participate if they don't want to.

And yes, Robert and others have been bashed by folks on this site, specifically, the thread last June regarding Gay Pride, the highest of holy holidays, in case you don't remember. It was disgraceful behavior.
 
"Actually I think I'm pretty damn "tolerant" around here, I rarely delete posts or censure posters, only in the most extreme cases."

This is true.

But, when you do, and you inadvertently hurt a substantial portion of the community that has been directed by their teachings to suffer in silence, with your words, they carry more weight, and more responsibility.

"I've also taken some heat from other members for being overly tolerant of people who only post in confrontational super forum threads and rarely if ever have anything to add within the washer, dryer or dishwasher community."

Well, I rarely post in the other two forums, because I do not "collect", per se, and I've decided to keep my Whirlpool DD for eternity, because I do not care for what is out there now, so my primary focus is on laundry products and the like, for now.

If posting in "Super" or "Deluxe" is a litmus test for membership in this community, please let me know, and I'll make myself scarce, but I don't know why this would be any other poster's concern.

"But I'll still be tolerant of them no mater how much "heat" and complaints I get about them."

Well, that's silly. I mean, if you CHOOSE to put up with such complaints, then that's your CHOICE.

My email address is featured on my profile. I'm very open to discussing anything I've written; in fact, I'd be willing to rephrase anything I've written that I worded foolishly.

I don't understand why anyone would "turn in" anyone else, on the basis of what anyone wrote here (unless, of course, someone was threatening or shady, in terms of business).

Some people, IMHO, need to get real with one another, stop running to surrogate daddies to solve their problems for them, and learn to coexist with those they disagree with, rather than call for their "enemy's" bannination.

I've NEVER complained to you about any issues regarding a poster. You don't have time, and nothing gets solved anyway.

"Again I need some education, how exactly did I do that? Are you referring to what I said, or maybe what I didn't say, I have no idea what you mean. Examples please and less double talk."

"I'm sorry to say, but a witch like me who could zap myself to Paris for lunch if I wanted... would never believe that religious nonsense..."

Double talk? First, someone goes out on the limb to admit that they've been hurt by something you've said, and you make a joke out of it.....then, you turn around and, after they've clearly stated that they hold something you can't comprehend dear to their heart, you compound your insensitivity by belitting that thing, that, frankly, no one should have been running their mouth disrespecting in the first place?

Robert, this is Manners 101, and I was shocked that you would come out with that. There was nothing in what Mark was saying that was prosyletizing or trying to win over converts. He was simply protesting what he saw as insensitivity toward ALL the person he was, not just the part you find compatible with your "world".

It's not about the marriage equality issue, or even living as a gay man in the 21st century, and acknowledging the challenges organized religions have presented to the so-called "gay agenda".

Substantial numbers of those gay men, worldwide, have spiritual lives and private beliefs that are either based on, draw heavily upon, or are carried entirely upon the organizational framework of these organized religions. What is in their hearts is as essential to their existence as what is in their head or between their legs.

Is it necessary to devalue them...us...because you choose to blame every conceivable setback the gay community suffers on their beliefs, without ever taking into account that "boy posters" and over-the-top parade floats might just play as big as a role in our struggles?

For all of this "confrontational attitude" I'm so guilty of, at least I'm direct. I don't gossip behind other peoples backs.
 
While I would not be one to consider Jefferson/Madison's writings a matter of faith - it is conveniently though the word that Governs our land.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Thomas Jefferson, 1802.

I've always felt that the best reading is that of acts within our History to help clearly define this great country we live in.

This is a great step for GLBT community - and I hope that it is just a sign of things to come, even if slowly. There is always hope.

Ben
 
"No straight man has ever been fired from a job because he's straight."

Not true. Some guy caught porking his secretary in the office supply closet will most likely find himself on the outside, looking in.

"It's not the peaceful, decent religious people who are the problem, Scott. It's the zealots that see fit to rob "peaceful, decent homosexual people" of the very basic freedoms that they seem to take for granted. No one is promoting any type of abuse, Scott. What you describe is called censorship, and that's not what this forum is about, and never has been. It was established for discussions of any topic, and religion is just another topic, as is gay rights. No one has to participate if they don't want to."

Andrew, that's like saying you're a member of a car buff site, and the inevitable "The Polesmokers Are Destroying Our Children's Schools" thread gets started, and you're just supposed to quietly ignore it.

That's behavior for people IN closets, not out of them.

You might SAY you'd be able to skim over it, but, sooner or later, you'd take a look, and you'd probably respond in some way.

(And, I might add, I've taken pains not to be hostile on this subject, even though I'm the one who's been repeatedly attacked. I realize this is a sore spot for many in the community, and I understand the reasons. But how long will this be used as an excuse, and how much worse will the vitriol get? Because, then, what you're advocating, is for the gay community to be divided, just like our political parties are.)

"And yes, Robert and others have been bashed by folks on this site, specifically, the thread last June regarding Gay Pride, the highest of holy holidays, in case you don't remember. It was disgraceful behavior."

I actually DON'T remember that. Was I, God Forbid, a participant? Is there a thread number I can reference?

And does it justify the type of rhetoric we continue to see here? How? Does it improve the situation?
 
"This is a great step for GLBT community - and I hope that it is just a sign of things to come, even if slowly. There is always hope."

I agree. And there shouldn't be so much worry.

If the votes go the other way in November, all that will happen is it'll be overturned, and go back and forth for a few years.

In the meantime, other states will follow suit, the spotlight will be off California, and it'll cease to be a political boondoggle.
 
"And another thing, please read all 765+ reader comments in today's Los Angeles Times article, now here's a lesson in tolerance, not to mention why some of us might be a bit tired of the truly intolerant lately..."

Okay....what planet do you believe we all live on, where you think you're NOT going to see this sort of thing?

It is only the elitists in our community who can ghettoize themselves in the big cities, and live in totally self-contained uber-liberal bubbles, where everybody loves one another and not one of us would ever begrudge the other a thing.

I was brought up proudly working-class. Being gay is just one part of who I am. I have to try and change attitudes simply by being the best person I know how to be. I've never had the luxury of add-water-and-stir acceptance.

Meanwhile, I see LOADS of people in those comments, wishing us well, and trying to reason with the rest of the nation, that our communities simply write off as hostile knuckledraggers.

I can't do that anymore. If it wouldn't be for my orientation, I'd BE one of those knuckledraggers. And, for all my "edumacation", I'm a lot closer to their side of the fence then I'll ever be to this one.
 
I'm too tired to respond fully to you this evening, but I will say three things, (there is always tomorrow)

A You need to lighten up, and not take everything that is said so seriously.

B I'm sorry to say, but a witch like me who could zap myself to Paris for lunch if I wanted... would never believe that religious nonsense..." Making a Joke out of it.
If you would open your eyes just a bit you would see that that was NO JOKE, that was me making a point. Don't you even begin to tell me about sensitivity.

C.
" without ever taking into account that "boy posters" and over-the-top parade floats might just play as big as a role in our struggles? "
That is part of who we all are, and I'm proud to be identified with those things. Obviously you are not. We have every right to have parades and boy posters, and if they offend others, that's too bad, they can not simply not look. We will never be silenced ever again because it "offends" others. Just like if I find religion totally offensive to me personally I don't have to go to church. But unlike so many others, I have no desire to ban their churches or tell them how to live their lives. Respect is earned on both sides, its not just automatically handed over.
 
Well said Robert

If people are offended, look away! Don't discriminate, don't hate, just accept and respect.

I happen to find you offensive for finding me offensive...

WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT??
 
<blockquote>You might SAY you'd be able to skim over it, but, sooner or later, you'd take a look, and you'd probably respond in some way.</blockquote>I'd hazard to say there are many readers following the ... uhh, discussion ... who don't respond, for whatever reason.

Oops, I responded, although it took several days and several started/abandoned posts.

Back to the shadows ...
 
>>And what's been done to us in the past does not need to be dredged up. There's a huge difference between protesting violence and literal bashings, open invective and hate on street corners, discrimination on the job, etc., and the political battle over marriage equality, something we've NEVER had. <<

I have to restate some basic facts here. First of all, in many parts of the world we STILL ARE being killed simply for being who we are. Second, we did not start this fight with christian churches and other religions, nor have we ever asked for the last 3500 years of persecution from them. And lastly, this "defense of marriage" nonsense is the first time in U.S. history where constitutional amendments are being proposed and passed not to limit government power, but specifically to target a group of 20+ million Americans and deny them a basic human right. It's no less obscene and repugnant in my patriotic view than tying us to fences and beating us to death.

>>If you stand up in defense of those who smear and defame peaceful, decent religious people, and you're in a position of any sort of power (i.e., this website), you're promoting that abuse, and that's not a bit different than those lemmings that support those who would hold our own collective interests back. <<

I've not heard anyone here defame peaceful, decent religious people. However we have begun to defend ourselves from the same religious hierarchies and groups who've been targeting us for the last 3500 years.

>>What you believe, what I believe, is all irrelevant. <<

There's that word again.
 
Wow...

I walked right into this one!

I think it all boils down to the old Church and State argument. Who gets the say? Who gets benefits of marriage? Does a church decide whether or not we can file taxes jointly? Does a state decide whether or not we can be married under the eyes of God?

In the back of my mind (way back there!) I have felt that this was kind of an "all or nothing" subject. One should have the power to decide and not the other. If that power resides with the churches then government is out and the insitution of marriage should have no legality whatsoever, gay or straight. It was would be performed and recognized strictly on a church-by-church basis.

If government is to dictate who can or cannot be married then it needs to be equal and across the board. Individuals marrying other individuals with all unions having the same legal benefits, responsibilities, etc. regardless of what any church says. Some churches will embrace it and others will not and it's up to them to decide but it would have no bearing legally.

I really think until one of these two scenarios becomes a reality there will be no equality. I can't say I'm a religious person or have any strong beliefs of that nature. I literally feel that my existence is beyond my own comprehension or anyone elses. I do however believe that there should be a deep seperation between church and state if this is to be a country of equality. Otherwise everything will be a religious battle.

Just my two cents. Thanks!

Jon
 
"It's not the peaceful, decent religious people who are the problem, Scott. It's the zealots that see fit to rob "peaceful, decent homosexual people" of the very basic freedoms that they seem to take for granted. No one is promoting any type of abuse, Scott. What you describe is called censorship, and that's not what this forum is about, and never has been. It was established for discussions of any topic, and religion is just another topic, as is gay rights. No one has to participate if they don't want to.

Andrew, that's like saying you're a member of a car buff site, and the inevitable "The Polesmokers Are Destroying Our Children's Schools" thread gets started, and you're just supposed to quietly ignore it. "

Your point was that Robert tolerates it so he promotes it, because of his authority on this site...clear and simple. It's still censorship for him to do otherwise, and as I said, that was never the purpose of this forum.

"And yes, Robert and others have been bashed by folks on this site, specifically, the thread last June regarding Gay Pride, the highest of holy holidays, in case you don't remember. It was disgraceful behavior."

"I actually DON'T remember that. Was I, God Forbid, a participant? Is there a thread number I can reference?"

No, Scott, you were not. At least not that I remember. It was another member that started it. But this was exactly Robert's point...it does happen, it has happened and it will happen again. You seemed somewhat doubtful that this was the case, but it is, unfortunately.

"And does it justify the type of rhetoric we continue to see here? How? Does it improve the situation?"

Ask a black person who was alive and sentient in the 1960s if they believe the confrontations, struggles, even riots, etc., etc., they endured to even be recognized as part of the human race was worth it to them?

I guess my point is that true freedom does not come easy. And there will always be those who want to take it away from you. If you don't dredge up the past, refuse to sit still and take it, even up to acts of civil disobedience when absolutely necessary, then we fall victim to anyone and everyone who would seek to deprive us of basic human rights.

So you may thing parade floats are silly, and these silly faggots marching down the street in June of every year are part of "our" problem. Maybe they are? Maybe they're not. But I do know one thing....other persecuted groups didn't make progress by sitting back and acting like perfect gentlemen and perfect ladies. They were very much "in your face" to get the treatment they were due, and the basic human rights that others "humans" had, but they did not. Yes, I agree with you that you should be the best person you know how to be to those around you, but that doesn't get you anywhere when others seek to deprive you of what is or should be rightfully yours. And I've been around long enough to have learned that the hard way.
 

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