Powder vs. Liquid

[whitekingd]

I recall reading that liquid laundry detergent was harder on the vintage machines than powdered detergent. Is this true? I have machines from the mid 50's to the late 60's. Thanks for any info you can give.

 

[foraloysius]

Yes, IIRC there is a component in some liquid detergents that breaks down the rubber used in older machines.

But besides that liquid detergent is bad for every machine because most liquid detergents leave back a residu in washers that can cause mold issues. Most problems with smelly washers are caused by mold, most of the time in places where you can't see it, but the smell will tell you it's there. These problems can appear in both toploaders and frontloaders.

Louis

 

[stainfighter]

re RESIDUE

anyone else notice how many of the newer machines having 'cleaning' cycles - just how is this a sign of progress - in the name of energy efficiency?!!!! Let's see - it's time for me to 'clean' my empty washer and use WATER and BLEACH to get rid of build up. What a joke

 

[mrboilwash]

Thank God most of today`s washer gaskets are made of silicone rubber.

I had a crappy Indesit washer in the late 1980`s with a real rubber door boot which became sticky and deteriorated quickly whith the use of phosphated powders. According to the repair service man I underdosed the powder leading to an invisible grease build up. Rubber is very sensitive to fats and grease.

Thought liquids are generally better at removing fats than powders because of higher surfactant content but perhaps there is also another reason why to avoid liquids in vintage washers.

 

[panthera]

Stefan,

That might also have been the result of the wonderful magnesium/calcium hard water we have in much of Germany, especially around Munich.

When I was working in the "Haushaltgeraete aus 2er Hand" shop, we often saw that problem with rubber based components from Italy. It was especially bad when someone had tried to clean with Essigessenz - that made some sort of 'soap' which was just nasty.

I do know that 'Shout' is bad news for Thumpers from the '50s, my mom killed a Unimatic that way, to her horror.

 

[sudsmaster]

Color me skeptical, but I tend to doubt there's much of anything in a liquid detergent that could be worse for old vintage rubber than is in a powder. That's because the liquids tend to use the same surfactants as the powders (to my knowledge). The main difference is the use of sodium citrate instead of sodium carbonate as a water softener, but I can't see that the sodium citrate (the sodium salt of citric acid) would attack rubber.

I'd like to see some mention of exactly what chemical component of liquid detergents is supposed to be bad for vintage rubber components. I tend to think that the problem is really in the composition of the old rubber - and that the detergent has little to do with its deterioration - more likely it's just the effect of time, air, heat.

 

[autowasherfreak]

I've also heard that liquid fabric softeners are hard on washers (TL and FL), and powder detergents are hard on washer pumps, and drain pipes. I also thought I heard that dryer sheets aren't good to dryers.

I stopped using liquid fabric softeners because my roommate is allergic to both Downey and Snuggle.

 

[ronhic]

There is a technical term that is applied here to the build up from liquids and fabric conditioners....

'SCRUD'

Refer to page 12 (fabric softener) of the Fisher and Paykel operating instructions attached.....

Basically it is a the accumulation of the remaining 'film' of conditioner that is left behind. It eventually goes a truely revolting 'grey' colour and then you see marks on the lights and whites. It mainly comes about in this country because the majority (yep...MAJORITY) of people use cold water to wash in (and possibly too much conditioner). As a result, the warm/hot washes that would get rid of it in one swoop don't get used.

I am a firm believer that the smells that people have in their washers are the results of fabric conditioner more than anything else. I can't base this on anything other than my own and my familys experience....

- I have only had front load machines and have never had a machine 'smell' and don't use conditioner at all.
- I also use warm to hot (30c-60c) wash cycles 85% of the time.
- my mothers machines have never smelt. Either her Simpson fluid drive or the ASEA/Fisher and Paykel front loaders. She doesn't own a dryer so always washes towels first 'to get them on the line' which are the only thing that get conditioner @ 1/3 dosage.
- she washes in warm water too...
- my sister has a fisher and paykel top load machine that is 12yrs old....no smell and she does the same as my mother for the same reason.

I would be interested to know of other people experience especially if conditioner is used in most cycles and if there is a mouldy smell in your machine.....

http://www.fisherpaykel.com.au/admin/pdfs/pdf_usecares/421125B_Aquasmart_UC__NZ-AU.pdf

 

[twinniefan]

Yes fabric softener causes it

Yes Ronhic,
I totally agree with you the scrud problem is causes by fab.softener and detergent residue build up this caused me a lot of problems with my old Bosch front loader(which is the reason I discovered this great site a few years ago.)the build up of scrud led to the breakdown of the seal which allowed water to seep into other areas of the machine(although there were other problems with that machine as well which I shant elaborate on.)
Nowdays I dont use fabric softener at all (although the Duo powder I am using has some built in.) not even on towels and I do not notice any real difference to our towels.
Actually one of my elderly volunteer workers once told me she puts vinegar in the final rinse and it softens and freshens up her towels never tried it myself though.

 

[ronhic]

Vinegar

Twinnie...

I have used vinegar as a softener before and it was recommended to me by a lady in a linen shop (Mansours I think).

Buy cheap white vinegar and use about half the dispenser full or 1/4-1/3 cup in a large Top Loader and about 2-3 Tablespoons in a front loader.

I have commented on the vinegar 'softener' before on here. I know that someone has used it and found it works well...I just can't find the post...

 

[autowasherfreak]

Vinegar

I just did a load of whites (still drying)and I filled the fabric softener dispenser to the maximum line with vinegar. I didn't think about it for the load of colored towels. I've also used ammonia instead of bleach for whites before. I also use ammonia during summer for sheets and pillow cases.

 

[ronhic]

Impressed...

Is that a normal softener for you ?

...and how do you find it....people will be interested to know

 

[kenmoreguy64]

A couple of interesting notes:

Yesterday I worked on a 1979 Kenmore electronic belt-drive machine which I had sold a co-worker in 1995. They've used it for almost 14 years, and my co-worker insists that his wife wash in cold water. They have had two kids during this time, so the machine has seen a lot of use, and to my knowledge they have always used a liguid detergent, such as Era, Wisk, and All Free and Clear.

One of the machine's problems was a locked-up pump. I had replaced the original pump in 1995 with a brand new FSP (Whirlpool) pump and was surprised that it would do that. Most of the locked pumps I've seen have been aftermarket. There was also about 1/2 pound, yes 1/2 pound, of thick, gray, slimey goo on the bottom of the tub. If was rather gross actually.

I have read that washing in cold water (someone mentioned that above) doesn't flush certain oils from laundry down the drain, AND that liquid detergents can leave a filmy residue, which powdered detergents will eventually remove. It took about 30 or 40 sheets of paper towel to wipe out the muck, which had a musty, unpleasant odor. I have read on other internet sites where this is even more common on newer machines which have plastic outer and/or inner tubs (easier for the scum to adhere to).

I also heard a long time ago that liquid detergents from the 90s had a lot of alcohol in them, which would dry out rubber components. I didn't notice any apparent deterioration of any of the rubber parts in the tub, in fact they looked great, almost as if the goo had protected them. Today's liquids, being used in lesser amounts, would have less alcohol, if they have any at all anymore. My only concern would be where that scum came from, and I blame cold water washing more than anything else for that.

Gordon

 

[cleanteamofny]

Total cold water washes is the cause of musty smell in washers, top loader as well as fronts....
My partner washer has that not so fresh smell because of using cold water only with liquid detergent
and it's not because of fabric softener buildup for he never uses the stuff.
So in theory, it's a cold water water issue than anything else!

 

[revvinkevin]

Nothing solid to add here other then...

For what ever the reason... I have never been a big fan of liquid detergents or liquid fabric softeners. I have used both before, but I just simply don't care for them. I prefer powdered detergent and dryer sheets.

I have also heard before, both here and elsewhere that the liquids (both detergent and softener) can leave residue or some sort of build up in the machine. I think this may be another reason I perfer not to use them.

Perhaps it's because I use powders and leave the door open when not in use, but I the nearly 12 years I've had my Frigidaire FL I have never had any issues with unpleasant smells or odors lurking within it.

 

[passatdoc]

I don't use fabric softener at all, and vary between liquid and powder HE detergent in my Frigidaire FL. I always leave the door ajar when not in use, and I wipe the gasket dry at the end of each washday. Not performing the latter two tasks in an FL can cause mold to proliferate. I do have a friend who kept the gasket dry and the door ajar and still had gunk build up inside the tub. I don't know if she did cold water washes, but she definitely was overusing both detergent and liquid softener. This was part of the learning curve for her, since it was her first FL washer after a succession of TL machines.

In winter where I live, cold tap water comes out icy cold, and I would never do a cold water wash with one exception: when washing new dark color garments for the first time. I do a cold water SOAK cycle with half the normal detergent, then follow with a normal or perm press cycle. In summer, the cold water tap runs tepid and I suppose it's safe to do cold water washes, but I always use a powder if trying to wash in cold. Most of the time I use Hot for towels and Warm for everything else. My only regret with the machine (2140) is that it did not have Auto Temp Control, which the next higher model (2940) does have. Auto Temp Control can add extra hot water to compensate for icy cold tap water in winter, so that my Warm washes are really "warm" and not "tepid".

 

[ronhic]

For those who....

....tend to wash in cooler water and use fabric softener, I can't recommend enough the occassional maintence cycle.

If you have a machine that currently has an unpleasant odour try it especially given the comments above by Gordon which confirms the Fisher and Paykel owners manual and my own comments....