Problem with Kenmore 80

[stan]

Latest observation

I decided to use the perm press cycle as suggested.. Couldn't tell the difference between this and reg cycle. However I notice that the pointer on the dial does not coincide with with the function.
The pic was taken after washer finished and stoped. If I turn the pointer where it points to "off" and pull knob, the machine goes into agitation! (No water) and is also fast agitation, regardless of where to agitation speed selector is moved to?
I'm going to get a new neutral drain assembly..(I've procrastinated taking that job on) but this has to be a twisted timer too?
Right?

 

[pierreandreply4]

stan

hello stan first I went to wish you luck on the repair and maybe you should replace at the same time the timer and check at the same time the motor just my toughs here

 

[DADoES]

 
Stan,

The dry-agitate is not a malfunction.  Notice the little flag in the Off section.  No other Off section on your timer has it.  Some direct-drive timers have a dry-agitate increment in an Off section as a diagnostic tool (although they're not all marked for it on the cycle legend).  Apparently that's the case on yours.

Many timers that don't have dry-agitate in an Off range have it instead at the last 2 mins of wash agitation on the Regular/Normal cycle.

The dry-agitate increment is a diagnostic tool to test neutral drain without having to fill the tub for agitation.  The neutral drain mechanism requires agitation (after a spin) to reset for the next neutral drain.  Set the timer at the dry-agitate, let it run for minute (should be enough, neutral drain reset should take only about 10 seconds of agitation but longer time may be needed if 1) the mechanism is worn or 2) the transmission oil is thickened from cold or age).  Stop the machine, turn the timer to spin and start it.  Neutral drain should occur.  Stop and restart again, neutral drain lock should release and spin occurs.[this post was last edited: 2/10/2019-14:44]

 

[combo52]

Dry Agitate position

Was also the suds-return position for the optional Suds-Saver accessory that WP-KM sold for DD washers, however by the time your machine was built WP had given up on the add-on SS accessory  due to problems with it.

 

John L.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

This symptom may be similar:

My Kenmore currently made around that time or likely years before has that same problem, and it seems anytime that the Speed is set for Fast Spin...

 

The clothes are around the agitator, in a completely wet and massive heap, while a groaning noise and small trickle of water attempt to be drained out...

 

I warn my wife if she ever washes the clothes (though she never does) in that speed combination never to put all that wetness right into the dryer, just to do as the solution to this is, open the lid and close it as the spin begins, or simply, as I had done since the beginning of this problem, to turn the timer dial back to the spin or to the spin on the next cycle (permanent press) our seeing as this machine has Extra Rinse for both Reg. and P.P. just use either one there...

 

 

 

-- Dave

 

[stan]

Glen

Thank you for pointing that out! For as long as Ive had this machine I've never noticed that.. hardly have ever used that cycle either.
So what say you? Timer, or neutral drain?

 

[stan]

Hi guys

Have ordered neutral drain assembly, along with the Whirlpool gear oil.
Decided to start there.. as its needed that repair for a while. I also ordered a six pad clutch..as long as the old one has to come off anyway..
Im curious as to why the neutral drain plate has to be replaced?
Since the new kit comes with a new plate, I'll replace it, and I can see why a new spin gear is included in the kit..because it's plastic, but what could go wrong with the metal plate?
I'm still suspicious of the timer, but thought I'd do the more complex repair first.

 

[stan]

So my parts are in!

But while I was waiting, I decided to do some preliminary work on the machine.
I wanted to removed inner tub in order to scrub it up and clean the outter tub, as well as the fill flume, under the tub ring, under the agitator fins ect
Two things I noticed in the included pics, was rust in the center of the outter tub, and a small pile of black dust under the center of machine. The black dust felt.. rubbery.
Could the tub seal be disintegrating? I observed the tub seal from the top, but didn't see or feel anything unusual.
Is the rust normal for its age, or has water gotten somewhere is shouldn't have.
Have never found water on the floor in the years I've had it.
Thoughts

 

[combo52]

Robert dust under washer

It’s just wear from the drive coupling inspect the drive coupling when you take it apart you might want to replace it.

Rust on basket is about normal for a machine at that age.

 

[stan]

Thanks John

I did order a coupler along with other parts..figured on replacing while I'm there. Glad to know it's not a tub seal.and rust is normal

 

[stan]

After

I crack open the tranny and replace drain kit, reseal and close, is it advisable to leave trany upright for 24 hours before tipping/reinstalling and using.
Dont want a oil leak, and sealent Pak says wait to dry 24 hours.

 

[stan]

Hi guys, I installed new neutral drain kit

When opening the transmission, I looked carefully at what was there, but didn't find anything wrong?
Spin gear looked good, no broken teeth, and neutral drain pak looked to be good..I went ahead and drained the oil as it looked pretty dark, (Inclosed pic) cleaned everything out with kerosine..and installed new parts, including new spin gear and along with fresh Whirlpool gear oil. My old clutch was still in good shape, but since I ordered a new 6 pad clutch, I put it on as well. Also a new motor coupler.
Intalled back into machine and ran a empty load.
Problem still partially exists!
It goes through fill and agitation, pause and will start to neutral drain, get about half way drained, then it stops.. like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds, then starts to spin And adds water.. Even though the water from wash isn't out yet..Finishes spin, then goes on to fill for rinse, agitates normal time, pause's then starts to neutral drain and countinues until it times out but dose not spin at all, unless I push in knob and pull out again.

Have I installed the neutral drain incorrectly?
If I did.. why would I get neural drain for part of the drain?
This has to be a faulty timer?

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>It goes through [wash] fill and agitation, pause and will start to neutral drain, get about half way drained, then it stops.. like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds, then starts to spin And adds water.. Even though the water from wash isn't out yet..Finishes spin, then goes on to fill for rinse, agitates normal time, pause's then starts to neutral drain and countinues until it times out but dose not spin at all, unless I push in knob and pull out again.</blockquote> Is this behavior consistent on every run? On both Regular and PPress? Or only in Regular if you don't typically use PPress?

<blockquote> ... like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds</blockquote> That's exactly what the pause between agitate and drain, and between drain and spin, is supposed to exhibit.

How long does it drain after the wash agitation until the motor pauses again and spin begins before drain is complete?

Sequence should be:
- Wash agitation (for however long the timer is set) (or rinse agitation)
- Pause a few seconds
- Neutral drain for 2 minutes
- Pause a few seconds
- Spin

If it's running neutral drain for two mins but the water isn't completely out, then something may be obstructing the pump-out flow rate.  The water level switch is out of the circuit for drain and spin so it will spin with water in the tub if drain is incomplete after two mins.

If it's not draining for a full two mins before the second pause, then the timer probably is the problem.  Ditto if it's not pausing a second time after the rinse neutral drain.

You said way up above that you've known for a few years that your neutral drain is worn.  Maybe it's both a flaky timer and neutral drain mechanism.

You can test neutral drain function by
1) setting the timer to the dry agitate position (the index mark in the Off referenced in Reply #19) and letting it agitate, 30 seconds should be enough (it'll probably run for two mins then turn off if you don't otherwise stop it)
2) stop the machine and set the timer to spin (doesn't matter which spin, final spin on Regular cycle is fine) and start it
3) should engage neutral drain
4) push the timer to stop, pull to start, should engage spin

You can do those four steps repeatedly to check that neutral drain works consistently.  If it does via that procedure but doesn't when the timer advances through a cycle by itself (the pauses don't function properly) then the timer is bad.

 

[combo52]

The machine should drain in one to two minutes max, if the pump is doing this you have a bad timer.

When you look at the old neutral drain parts you will not see anything wrong with the parts, it is also VERY rare to see teeth worn or striped off the spin gear, if that was the case the transmission would have made a terribly loud noise.

John

 

[stan]

Thank you John and Glen

Performed Glen's suggested test with the dry agitate and it did in fact neutral drain.
Yesterday when it went into neutral drain there was no idication that anything was wrong with the pump. But it certainly did not neutral l drain for 2 min. (Glen's question) I only had a small test load. And 2 min would have emptied it.
I had another issue with the parts that came for motor coupler, but will explain that later..
John was right about the black dust on the floor! It's was the insulator around the coupler that was disinagrating.
And it appears he also called a bad timer early on.
Now where to get a reliable timer?
Not seeing anything wrong with neutral drain parts is right? In or out, they looked to be exactly like new?
I saved the old clutch, and spin gear, along with neutral drain parts because they do not appear to be faulty?

 

[pierreandreply4]

hello stan

hello stan if you can afford shiping ever tough of buying a spare washer as a backup here is a link for you just in case lots of old fashion direct drive machines

and also here a link that sell parts for washing machine they are expert with older machines located in Beloeil Canada this mean you would need to have the part ship they might have the type of timer you need for your machine

http://www.couture-electro.com/

they might also have the part you need for your timer

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-laveuse-secheuse/ville-de-montreal/econoplus-liquidation-ensemble-laveuse-secheuse-a-partir-de-399-99/c1219005?channelId=1101&td=IhuhT8qLDUhbGtqMWGfhcXwC3RUyU04tNYBMPiQO38Nd1JcZWbXm3AUCkUrMmgBzOYFVqut4CJrflXIsJmIZYvZoR1zCqP4jrt8Vn1

 

[stan]

Hi guys

Ordered a new timer from Amazon.
I'm fairly confident that the new neutral drain oak is working. Today I've run two loads using the PP cycle, and it performers as it should.p, but dose not in Ultra Clean Cycle. PP is is a cycle that I never use, and can't tell the difference beteen the the two, other than the PP only goes as high as 10 min.
Had I know this last, night I may not have ordered a $150 timer and just used the PP cycle from now on, but it's on it's way.
Is it possible that using the one cycle all these years wares out that part of the timer only?
I have other questions as to how the neural drain works mechanically. I wish when I had the trany open I'd have turned by hand one direction and the other to see how it operated. The engineering is a mystery to me.

 

[stan]

Thanks Pierre

For the links

 

[DADoES]

 
Perm Press may have a cool down (partial drain, refill, agitate) before the first spin.

Or it may have sprays in the first spin (as a sort-of cool down) whereas Regular/Ultra Clean doesn't (that's a difference between Regular and Casual/PP on my 2003 Whirlpool).

 

[pierreandreply4]

your welcome stan sorry if the link I posted is from a montreal seller kijii that is