Problem with Kenmore 80

[stan]

Hi guys, I installed new neutral drain kit

When opening the transmission, I looked carefully at what was there, but didn't find anything wrong?
Spin gear looked good, no broken teeth, and neutral drain pak looked to be good..I went ahead and drained the oil as it looked pretty dark, (Inclosed pic) cleaned everything out with kerosine..and installed new parts, including new spin gear and along with fresh Whirlpool gear oil. My old clutch was still in good shape, but since I ordered a new 6 pad clutch, I put it on as well. Also a new motor coupler.
Intalled back into machine and ran a empty load.
Problem still partially exists!
It goes through fill and agitation, pause and will start to neutral drain, get about half way drained, then it stops.. like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds, then starts to spin And adds water.. Even though the water from wash isn't out yet..Finishes spin, then goes on to fill for rinse, agitates normal time, pause's then starts to neutral drain and countinues until it times out but dose not spin at all, unless I push in knob and pull out again.

Have I installed the neutral drain incorrectly?
If I did.. why would I get neural drain for part of the drain?
This has to be a faulty timer?

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>It goes through [wash] fill and agitation, pause and will start to neutral drain, get about half way drained, then it stops.. like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds, then starts to spin And adds water.. Even though the water from wash isn't out yet..Finishes spin, then goes on to fill for rinse, agitates normal time, pause's then starts to neutral drain and countinues until it times out but dose not spin at all, unless I push in knob and pull out again.</blockquote> Is this behavior consistent on every run? On both Regular and PPress? Or only in Regular if you don't typically use PPress?

<blockquote> ... like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds</blockquote> That's exactly what the pause between agitate and drain, and between drain and spin, is supposed to exhibit.

How long does it drain after the wash agitation until the motor pauses again and spin begins before drain is complete?

Sequence should be:
- Wash agitation (for however long the timer is set) (or rinse agitation)
- Pause a few seconds
- Neutral drain for 2 minutes
- Pause a few seconds
- Spin

If it's running neutral drain for two mins but the water isn't completely out, then something may be obstructing the pump-out flow rate.  The water level switch is out of the circuit for drain and spin so it will spin with water in the tub if drain is incomplete after two mins.

If it's not draining for a full two mins before the second pause, then the timer probably is the problem.  Ditto if it's not pausing a second time after the rinse neutral drain.

You said way up above that you've known for a few years that your neutral drain is worn.  Maybe it's both a flaky timer and neutral drain mechanism.

You can test neutral drain function by
1) setting the timer to the dry agitate position (the index mark in the Off referenced in Reply #19) and letting it agitate, 30 seconds should be enough (it'll probably run for two mins then turn off if you don't otherwise stop it)
2) stop the machine and set the timer to spin (doesn't matter which spin, final spin on Regular cycle is fine) and start it
3) should engage neutral drain
4) push the timer to stop, pull to start, should engage spin

You can do those four steps repeatedly to check that neutral drain works consistently.  If it does via that procedure but doesn't when the timer advances through a cycle by itself (the pauses don't function properly) then the timer is bad.

 

[combo52]

The machine should drain in one to two minutes max, if the pump is doing this you have a bad timer.

When you look at the old neutral drain parts you will not see anything wrong with the parts, it is also VERY rare to see teeth worn or striped off the spin gear, if that was the case the transmission would have made a terribly loud noise.

John

 

[stan]

Thank you John and Glen

Performed Glen's suggested test with the dry agitate and it did in fact neutral drain.
Yesterday when it went into neutral drain there was no idication that anything was wrong with the pump. But it certainly did not neutral l drain for 2 min. (Glen's question) I only had a small test load. And 2 min would have emptied it.
I had another issue with the parts that came for motor coupler, but will explain that later..
John was right about the black dust on the floor! It's was the insulator around the coupler that was disinagrating.
And it appears he also called a bad timer early on.
Now where to get a reliable timer?
Not seeing anything wrong with neutral drain parts is right? In or out, they looked to be exactly like new?
I saved the old clutch, and spin gear, along with neutral drain parts because they do not appear to be faulty?

 

[pierreandreply4]

hello stan

hello stan if you can afford shiping ever tough of buying a spare washer as a backup here is a link for you just in case lots of old fashion direct drive machines

and also here a link that sell parts for washing machine they are expert with older machines located in Beloeil Canada this mean you would need to have the part ship they might have the type of timer you need for your machine

http://www.couture-electro.com/

they might also have the part you need for your timer

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-laveuse-sec...UrMmgBzOYFVqut4CJrflXIsJmIZYvZoR1zCqP4jrt8Vn1

 

[stan]

Hi guys

Ordered a new timer from Amazon.
I'm fairly confident that the new neutral drain oak is working. Today I've run two loads using the PP cycle, and it performers as it should.p, but dose not in Ultra Clean Cycle. PP is is a cycle that I never use, and can't tell the difference beteen the the two, other than the PP only goes as high as 10 min.
Had I know this last, night I may not have ordered a $150 timer and just used the PP cycle from now on, but it's on it's way.
Is it possible that using the one cycle all these years wares out that part of the timer only?
I have other questions as to how the neural drain works mechanically. I wish when I had the trany open I'd have turned by hand one direction and the other to see how it operated. The engineering is a mystery to me.

 

[stan]

Thanks Pierre

For the links

 

[DADoES]

 
Perm Press may have a cool down (partial drain, refill, agitate) before the first spin.

Or it may have sprays in the first spin (as a sort-of cool down) whereas Regular/Ultra Clean doesn't (that's a difference between Regular and Casual/PP on my 2003 Whirlpool).

 

[pierreandreply4]

your welcome stan sorry if the link I posted is from a montreal seller kijii that is

 

[stan]

Hi guys

The new timer came in last weekend and I've installed it. The machine now works like new.
I had two problems
1 Faulty timer.
2 Worn neutral drain.
The neutral drain had been functioning intermitantly for quite some time, when the timer started to fail, one problem confused the other (for me)
I believe the reason for the machine stoping when it was not suppose to for 1 to 10 seconds the resuming spin was the faulty timer.
Since I started the repair with the neutral drain (parts that came first) I'll share my observations with that part of the repair first.
The new parts came with a new spin gear, 2 new plates, the latch, trip lever, and spin pawl, two screws.
I couldn't see why I needed new plate (rack retainer) what would be wrong with it? And as it turned out none of the screws including my old one fit the hole on either of the new plates sent. My old plate appeared to have a threaded hole that the screw threaded through. So I reused my old plate and screw for that. (I believe the screw is referred to as a shoulder pawl stud) and a Allen wrench is use for it.
Installed new trip lever, spin pawl, latch. Since I can't see ware on my old parts, I'm wondering if just the oil getting thick with age interferes with them doing there job?
If thats true, then I can't see the point of changing the parts, and not changing the oil, as illustrated in one of the above videos?
Unless the plastic spin gear hub is not supposed to tun like mine old one dose??
I also ordered a new motor coupler from Amazon that came in at the same time.. however the $7.99 part comes with only a new insulator a one coupler. You have to order the $12.00 one to get the one that has 2 couplers, metal reinforced one that goes on the electric motor side. As these things go.. Of course mine broke on the motor side...after transmission and motor reinstall during my testing! (Inclosed pic)
The new six pad clutch I put on is fine, but I don't think it was really necessary to have a commercial clutch for my machine
(so I have a spare) The extra $ would have been better spent on a heavy duty coupler with all three pieces.
I may post a new thread titled "New Neutral Drain" and share my observations possibly to help someone else that may take on this repair,
I included pics of my old parts cleaned up, and the worn insulator that was cause of the black dust under the machine.

 

[DADoES]

 
All the FSP coupler packages I've seen include two coupler halves (both with the metal inserts).  You may have bought an after-market item.

Be sure to press the couplers onto both the motor and transmission so the end of the shafts are flush with the inner surface of the coupler.  Use a hex socket of appropriate size to fit between the fingers and mate to the metal insert so you're pounding on the metal insert, not on the plastic around the insert (which can cause the insert to separate from the coupler).

A photo comparing your old/existing rack retainer plate to the two new plates would been interesting to see.

 

[stan]

Hi Glen

Metal socket worked well. Can't remember was size fit perfect.
Can't show you the old plate, cuz I ain't taken it out now LOL but the old one looked like the new, but mine looked threaded none the the studs fit through the hole except the stud provided that was too small.
Machine was smooth and quite before all this but is even better now.

 

[stan]

Do you know

If the spin gear hub is suppose to turn, or is it supposed to be afixed?

 

[stan]

This is what broke

This little metal hub. Took me a while to finally see it after cleaning it
Mystery solved
None of the other parts had failed.
Machine still works perfectly