rocketwarrior
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Through a social circle I am in a dialogue regarding "Progressive Christianity" - and TCPC - anyone here involved in or aware of this phenomenon?
"Progressive Christianity"
- Thread starter rocketwarrior
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Mark, many similar movements have been started over the last several hundred years, in various places around the world. All of them have had the same goal: to return the religions *about* Jesus (Catholicism, Protestantism etc) back to the religion *of* Jesus.
I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, but by high school I had become so disillusioned by their judgmental horseshit dogma, absolute hypocrisy and false "holiness", I began participating in the Newman Center at Cal State Northridge, and attended Charismatic masses during the week instead of Catholic masses on Sundays. The differences in attitude and purpose were like night and day. Like the TCPC, the Charismatics were concerned with attaining Jesus and not raising him onto a pedestal that nobody was ever allowed to climb up on.
Whenever someone asks why I'm such a harsh critic of Catholics and most other Christian denominations, the simple reason is that, IMO, they're fundamentally castrated and therefore false religions.
The TCPC have gone a step further than the Charismatics, by explicitly defining what they mean by "progressive". I applaud them for that, but I also think it will turn out to be their eventual downfall. When push comes to shove, as it always does when new religious sects are created, they'll be rejected as heretics or crackpots by mainstream Christianity. The reason the Charismatics have been able to successfully integrate into established Christian churches is precisely because they haven't hard-coded their beliefs:
en.wikipedia.org
I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, but by high school I had become so disillusioned by their judgmental horseshit dogma, absolute hypocrisy and false "holiness", I began participating in the Newman Center at Cal State Northridge, and attended Charismatic masses during the week instead of Catholic masses on Sundays. The differences in attitude and purpose were like night and day. Like the TCPC, the Charismatics were concerned with attaining Jesus and not raising him onto a pedestal that nobody was ever allowed to climb up on.
Whenever someone asks why I'm such a harsh critic of Catholics and most other Christian denominations, the simple reason is that, IMO, they're fundamentally castrated and therefore false religions.
The TCPC have gone a step further than the Charismatics, by explicitly defining what they mean by "progressive". I applaud them for that, but I also think it will turn out to be their eventual downfall. When push comes to shove, as it always does when new religious sects are created, they'll be rejected as heretics or crackpots by mainstream Christianity. The reason the Charismatics have been able to successfully integrate into established Christian churches is precisely because they haven't hard-coded their beliefs:
Charismatic movement - Wikipedia
rocketwarrior
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TCPC
An emerging 'pc' group in my wife's Lutheran Church is reading all the stuff, and at a wine tasting I heard one of them describe his pc change to seeing Jesus as a teacher instead of a deity, etc. as 'maturing in the faith.' That got me going because in my study of this phenomenon I see little difference between this PC thing and what we were doing in the 60’s. Simple hippies (smile) questioned creed and dogma, saw Jesus as a teacher (questioning his deity), saw the obvious propriety of inclusion and the folly of presuming one’s faith to be the one true path.
So, I say to my wife that I thought that is what we believed when we met. She doesn't want to talk to me about it, so, Jeff, thanks for being there (smile) - and for sharing the link.
An emerging 'pc' group in my wife's Lutheran Church is reading all the stuff, and at a wine tasting I heard one of them describe his pc change to seeing Jesus as a teacher instead of a deity, etc. as 'maturing in the faith.' That got me going because in my study of this phenomenon I see little difference between this PC thing and what we were doing in the 60’s. Simple hippies (smile) questioned creed and dogma, saw Jesus as a teacher (questioning his deity), saw the obvious propriety of inclusion and the folly of presuming one’s faith to be the one true path.
So, I say to my wife that I thought that is what we believed when we met. She doesn't want to talk to me about it, so, Jeff, thanks for being there (smile) - and for sharing the link.
I don't know about the hippies or TCPC, but as far as the Charismatics go it was never about questioning Jesus' divinity, it's about striving for the human potential for this same union with God that Jesus enjoyed. To deny this potential renders any religion impotent and pointless IMO.
At this point in time,
Anything, absolutely anything which will put an end to the hatred of the christianists towards gays and transgender is worth pursuing.
Personally, I wish Caligula had listened to me. I told him the lions would catch their death of cold if he left them out in the Coliseum overnight, but would he listen? Of course not. Senator Incitatus knew best, as always.
Anything, absolutely anything which will put an end to the hatred of the christianists towards gays and transgender is worth pursuing.
Personally, I wish Caligula had listened to me. I told him the lions would catch their death of cold if he left them out in the Coliseum overnight, but would he listen? Of course not. Senator Incitatus knew best, as always.
Said it before, saying it again:
Whoever you are, wherever you are on Life's Journey, you are welcome here. (link attached)
Lawrence/Maytagbear
ucc.org
Whoever you are, wherever you are on Life's Journey, you are welcome here. (link attached)
Lawrence/Maytagbear
Home - United Church of Christ
United in Spirit and inspired by God’s grace, we welcome all, love all, and seek justice for all. We are the United Church of Christ. Keep up with how God
ucc.org
rocketwarrior
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UCC
It was unclear from a brief look at the site - but, do UCC members believe in Christ's deity?
It was unclear from a brief look at the site - but, do UCC members believe in Christ's deity?
The fourth word in our name---
United Church of Christ.
However, I do admit that in some congregations, like my university town congregation, the joke is "Unitarians Considering Christ."
From our "God is Still Speaking" campaign:
"We believe in Quantum Mechanics.....and regular ones, too."
The UCC ordained its first woman in the 50s. The 1850s!
We ordained our first openly gay minister in 1972.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
United Church of Christ.
However, I do admit that in some congregations, like my university town congregation, the joke is "Unitarians Considering Christ."
From our "God is Still Speaking" campaign:
"We believe in Quantum Mechanics.....and regular ones, too."
The UCC ordained its first woman in the 50s. The 1850s!
We ordained our first openly gay minister in 1972.
Lawrence/Maytagbear
lordkenmore
Well-known member
I have had no experience with the UCC, so I won't comment about their beliefs.
However, it's always worth noting that beliefs can vary within an organization. You won't see this happen within a fundamentalist "you see it OUR way or YOU HAVE A FIRST CLASS TICKET TO HELL!!!!!" But more liberal churches do have wild variation from person to person.
I do know of one person who was apparently with the UCC who did, at least for a while, disagree with Jesus' deity. I refer to Dr. Dale Turner, who was a minister for University Congregational United Church of Christ in Seattle. He wrote a column for The Seattle Times. I have a copy of a book that compiles some of his late 80s columns. From what I read in this book, he questioned the deity of Jesus (at least at the time of writing these columns in the late 1980s). In one column (titled "Fundamentalism: It sees the Bible narrowly but with admirable fervor."), he said:
<blockquote>
The study of the Scriptures reveals to me that Jesus did not believe himself to be God. Jesus consistently prayed to God, the Father. A person does not pray to himself. Jesus was approached by one who addressed him, "Good Master," and Jesus replied, "Why callest though me good? There is none good but God"--a clear distinction between himself and God.
</blockquote>
Judging from the next column in the book, he evidently got a huge pile of mail that, er, disagreed.
However, it's always worth noting that beliefs can vary within an organization. You won't see this happen within a fundamentalist "you see it OUR way or YOU HAVE A FIRST CLASS TICKET TO HELL!!!!!" But more liberal churches do have wild variation from person to person.
I do know of one person who was apparently with the UCC who did, at least for a while, disagree with Jesus' deity. I refer to Dr. Dale Turner, who was a minister for University Congregational United Church of Christ in Seattle. He wrote a column for The Seattle Times. I have a copy of a book that compiles some of his late 80s columns. From what I read in this book, he questioned the deity of Jesus (at least at the time of writing these columns in the late 1980s). In one column (titled "Fundamentalism: It sees the Bible narrowly but with admirable fervor."), he said:
<blockquote>
The study of the Scriptures reveals to me that Jesus did not believe himself to be God. Jesus consistently prayed to God, the Father. A person does not pray to himself. Jesus was approached by one who addressed him, "Good Master," and Jesus replied, "Why callest though me good? There is none good but God"--a clear distinction between himself and God.
</blockquote>
Judging from the next column in the book, he evidently got a huge pile of mail that, er, disagreed.
rocketwarrior
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PC
Here's what I am getting at. Since my first exposure to it in the 70's, my wife's church (an ELCA Lutheran Church)indicated to me (and proposed new memberrs) they believed that Christ was their savior and use a creed of belief pronouncements. In effect, like many religions, it claimed that 'salvation' depended on embracing Christ as one's savior. The emegering Progressive Christianity group would believe there are many 'paths to god' - which would include eastern religions, etc. I presume they still condemn so-called atheists.
My point is that why would a gay person, or an atheist, etc. want to join any church that claims to be the true path to the exclusion of others?
Here's what I am getting at. Since my first exposure to it in the 70's, my wife's church (an ELCA Lutheran Church)indicated to me (and proposed new memberrs) they believed that Christ was their savior and use a creed of belief pronouncements. In effect, like many religions, it claimed that 'salvation' depended on embracing Christ as one's savior. The emegering Progressive Christianity group would believe there are many 'paths to god' - which would include eastern religions, etc. I presume they still condemn so-called atheists.
My point is that why would a gay person, or an atheist, etc. want to join any church that claims to be the true path to the exclusion of others?
My point is that why would a gay person, or an atheist, etc.
Good question, Rocketwarrior.
Given the absolute hatred and the passions behind the fury which the religious conservatives in the gay online community unleash upon any who dare to disagree with their "my way or the highway" christianist churches - whether Roman Catholic or otherwise boneheaded, I think the answer is very simple:
Fear.
Incapable of true faith, they must be told what to believe.
Good question, Rocketwarrior.
Given the absolute hatred and the passions behind the fury which the religious conservatives in the gay online community unleash upon any who dare to disagree with their "my way or the highway" christianist churches - whether Roman Catholic or otherwise boneheaded, I think the answer is very simple:
Fear.
Incapable of true faith, they must be told what to believe.
Mark, any organized religion has two sides, dogma and business. The point of claiming "our God is the real one, and yours isn't" has nothing to do with dogma and everything to do with business. It's to keep members dropping money into their collection basket every week, instead of somebody else's collection basket.
I suspect there is a third wing
to organized religion, especially in the US:
The political arm.
Conservative Christians don't believe in separation of church and state. They directly support hatred and oppression of women, gays and transgender by funding rethuglican politicians who share their hate.
It's time to strip the christianists of their tax exemptions. Their agenda is the same as the Nazis: First, strip gays of the few civil and human rights we possess in the US, second murder us.
to organized religion, especially in the US:
The political arm.
Conservative Christians don't believe in separation of church and state. They directly support hatred and oppression of women, gays and transgender by funding rethuglican politicians who share their hate.
It's time to strip the christianists of their tax exemptions. Their agenda is the same as the Nazis: First, strip gays of the few civil and human rights we possess in the US, second murder us.
Someone said that organized religion and organized crime have many things in common.
If you look at the Judaism of the Bible and the sect of Judaism that became Christianity, you will see the rise of Christianity's emphasis on the need for salvation from sin and the concept of Original Sin, which was as much John Milton as anything else, along with the emphasis on mankind's sinful nature was as much a marketing ploy as theology. Some use had to be made of the death of Jesus so he became the sacrificial lamb for mankind's sins. You had to get saved from your sins through Jesus as your savior so that you could go to Heaven after you died. Judaism has no concept like this. Our Creator knows mankind is not perfect and that mankind falls short of perfection in many ways. There are mechanisms to atone, both personally and as a community, but there was not a great emphasis on an afterlife. Judaism remains a religion with the emphasis on life, not death; this world, where we are supposed to work as the Creator's partner to improve life, and not the world to come. Judaism certainly does not deny that we are immortal souls in mortal bodies, but does not go into detail on the afterlife. When the Creator speaks to Moses about his death in Deuteronomy 32:50 the English translation of the Hebrew account is, "and die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered to thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor and was gathered unto his people." This term is explained in commentary as "being joined in soul to the souls of thy people which have preceded thee." It is certainly an affirmation of the immortality of our souls. It is true that we pray to live and not die, but no one escapes death. It is other religions that exercise power over their adherents by keeping them in fear of going to hell, some even after members have been "saved".
I bring up the following incident as a question by which I am puzzled. A neighbor died. We all attended her funeral at the local Catholic Church. As I recall this after many years with my faulty memory, the priest kept saying something about that since she had died in Christ, she would rise in Christ and join him soon but then said something about her not going to Heaven but purgatory, after which she would go to Heaven. What struck me immediately was that her salvation, as depicted in her funeral mass, was not complete. It was like pulling something out of the washer that needed more attention because it had not come clean. In my near death experience, in the one I witnessed in the hospital and most I have read about, the spirit is almost instantly in paradise so I did not understand what the priest was saying about our friend and neighbor's soul.
I am not throwing this Catholic funeral sermon in anyone's face like a smartass nor am I demeaning anyone's faith, but it was troubling to those of us who were not Catholic, especially those of us who are Jewish. She went to Mass each week and was a kind person. We did not understand why her church said that she did not go to Heaven.
If you look at the Judaism of the Bible and the sect of Judaism that became Christianity, you will see the rise of Christianity's emphasis on the need for salvation from sin and the concept of Original Sin, which was as much John Milton as anything else, along with the emphasis on mankind's sinful nature was as much a marketing ploy as theology. Some use had to be made of the death of Jesus so he became the sacrificial lamb for mankind's sins. You had to get saved from your sins through Jesus as your savior so that you could go to Heaven after you died. Judaism has no concept like this. Our Creator knows mankind is not perfect and that mankind falls short of perfection in many ways. There are mechanisms to atone, both personally and as a community, but there was not a great emphasis on an afterlife. Judaism remains a religion with the emphasis on life, not death; this world, where we are supposed to work as the Creator's partner to improve life, and not the world to come. Judaism certainly does not deny that we are immortal souls in mortal bodies, but does not go into detail on the afterlife. When the Creator speaks to Moses about his death in Deuteronomy 32:50 the English translation of the Hebrew account is, "and die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered to thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor and was gathered unto his people." This term is explained in commentary as "being joined in soul to the souls of thy people which have preceded thee." It is certainly an affirmation of the immortality of our souls. It is true that we pray to live and not die, but no one escapes death. It is other religions that exercise power over their adherents by keeping them in fear of going to hell, some even after members have been "saved".
I bring up the following incident as a question by which I am puzzled. A neighbor died. We all attended her funeral at the local Catholic Church. As I recall this after many years with my faulty memory, the priest kept saying something about that since she had died in Christ, she would rise in Christ and join him soon but then said something about her not going to Heaven but purgatory, after which she would go to Heaven. What struck me immediately was that her salvation, as depicted in her funeral mass, was not complete. It was like pulling something out of the washer that needed more attention because it had not come clean. In my near death experience, in the one I witnessed in the hospital and most I have read about, the spirit is almost instantly in paradise so I did not understand what the priest was saying about our friend and neighbor's soul.
I am not throwing this Catholic funeral sermon in anyone's face like a smartass nor am I demeaning anyone's faith, but it was troubling to those of us who were not Catholic, especially those of us who are Jewish. She went to Mass each week and was a kind person. We did not understand why her church said that she did not go to Heaven.
Tom, no Biblical foundation exists for the concepts of original sin or purgatory, and the debate over so-called original sin has raged within the Catholic Church for almost as long as the church has existed. Google "Pelagianism" for details.
My personal favorite goofy Catholic concept is "Limbo", another fantasy state created out of thin air by Roman Catholics to accomodate their belief that unbaptized infants who die don't make it to heaven. Not surprisingly, this position shocked and disgusted most people, so the church came up with this absurd concept of "Limbo", which they claim is something like an eternal waiting room.
Really, how some grown adults can talk themselves into believing this crap is astonishing to me.
My personal favorite goofy Catholic concept is "Limbo", another fantasy state created out of thin air by Roman Catholics to accomodate their belief that unbaptized infants who die don't make it to heaven. Not surprisingly, this position shocked and disgusted most people, so the church came up with this absurd concept of "Limbo", which they claim is something like an eternal waiting room.
Really, how some grown adults can talk themselves into believing this crap is astonishing to me.
Oh, that's simple enough
By creating the institution of "Pergatorium", the Catholic church could sell dispositions and rake in the money.
Right now, the Roman Catholic pigs in Washington DC are withdrawing from social help programs for the homeless and destitute to 'protest' gays being treated as human beings. Their hypocrasy cries to the heavens - the still permit divorced people who have remarried to work for them.
Pigs. Swine. Hypocritically monsters. That is what Christianity as become in American.
By creating the institution of "Pergatorium", the Catholic church could sell dispositions and rake in the money.
Right now, the Roman Catholic pigs in Washington DC are withdrawing from social help programs for the homeless and destitute to 'protest' gays being treated as human beings. Their hypocrasy cries to the heavens - the still permit divorced people who have remarried to work for them.
Pigs. Swine. Hypocritically monsters. That is what Christianity as become in American.
Pentecost
The Holy Spirit appeared to the disciples in the Upper Room as a Mighty Rushing Wind. A burning "tongue" of flame appeared above their heads. Their speech was confused and they were told to go out into the world and spread the Gospel. Christian holidays parroted and spun off from traditions long held before the death of Christ. In my early days I would have branded any discussion that strayed from Baptist as false. It makes sense that as the disciples went out into the world to preach a Gospel of Christ there would be a local spin placed on the events and celebration. I no longer to exacting details. I am in Love with God and God is with me. Good things manifest in my life that border on miraculous. I am convinved God created me, my flaws and abilities and is as proud of me as I am my own children. Christ died so we can live free. As a Christian at Easter, I believe we should be celebrate the "new" life in Christ and not become so entangled in the death. If it were so, Christ died for nothing.
The Holy Spirit appeared to the disciples in the Upper Room as a Mighty Rushing Wind. A burning "tongue" of flame appeared above their heads. Their speech was confused and they were told to go out into the world and spread the Gospel. Christian holidays parroted and spun off from traditions long held before the death of Christ. In my early days I would have branded any discussion that strayed from Baptist as false. It makes sense that as the disciples went out into the world to preach a Gospel of Christ there would be a local spin placed on the events and celebration. I no longer to exacting details. I am in Love with God and God is with me. Good things manifest in my life that border on miraculous. I am convinved God created me, my flaws and abilities and is as proud of me as I am my own children. Christ died so we can live free. As a Christian at Easter, I believe we should be celebrate the "new" life in Christ and not become so entangled in the death. If it were so, Christ died for nothing.
Jeff, we all know how pleasant waiting rooms are. What a stinkin' thing to do to babies.
Keven, the Catholic Charities just quietly and without any disruption to the care of those in the program, transferred administration of 38 children in foster homes to another charity to preserve the purity of the Church's teachings about marriage (note: nothing about caring for the Creator's less fortunate ones). When they first announced that they would have to end care for the poor souls in programs administered by city contracts with the Catholic Charities, they evoked (and did nothing to dispell) visions of hordes of homless people on the curbs in the snows of winter because of the District granting human rights to gays and lesbians. It is amazing and disgusting that instead of making people aware of the great love showering down upon us from Heaven and teaching all of the ways we could use that love to unite to make life better for everyone, so many religions teach hatred, instill fear and foster judgement. It's not just Lucy who's gonna have some 'splainin' to do.
Kelly, yes it is awe-inspiring to those of us who are aware of and grateful for even some of our blessings just how richly we are blessed and how the blessings keep flowing to us. It was a little embarrasing when someone whom I had just met asked me what my dreams were as a child. I had to tell him about the all appliances I wished to have or see function and how the dreams had been brought to fruition; just a small part of my blessings. Things have happened in my life to lead me from blessing to blessing in miraculous ways, as you said. When people ask me about my retirement plans, I tell them that the job came to me unexpectedly and things have unfolded before me without my planning for them. I keep on going to work each day and when it is time to retire, I will know, unless I suddenly find myself in Heaven and don't have to bother with retiring.
Keven, the Catholic Charities just quietly and without any disruption to the care of those in the program, transferred administration of 38 children in foster homes to another charity to preserve the purity of the Church's teachings about marriage (note: nothing about caring for the Creator's less fortunate ones). When they first announced that they would have to end care for the poor souls in programs administered by city contracts with the Catholic Charities, they evoked (and did nothing to dispell) visions of hordes of homless people on the curbs in the snows of winter because of the District granting human rights to gays and lesbians. It is amazing and disgusting that instead of making people aware of the great love showering down upon us from Heaven and teaching all of the ways we could use that love to unite to make life better for everyone, so many religions teach hatred, instill fear and foster judgement. It's not just Lucy who's gonna have some 'splainin' to do.
Kelly, yes it is awe-inspiring to those of us who are aware of and grateful for even some of our blessings just how richly we are blessed and how the blessings keep flowing to us. It was a little embarrasing when someone whom I had just met asked me what my dreams were as a child. I had to tell him about the all appliances I wished to have or see function and how the dreams had been brought to fruition; just a small part of my blessings. Things have happened in my life to lead me from blessing to blessing in miraculous ways, as you said. When people ask me about my retirement plans, I tell them that the job came to me unexpectedly and things have unfolded before me without my planning for them. I keep on going to work each day and when it is time to retire, I will know, unless I suddenly find myself in Heaven and don't have to bother with retiring.
Tom,
I am overjoyed to hear it. As late as Wednesday, this week, that unholy C U next Tuesday from NOM proclaimed at the CATA Institute that they were just going to toss the poor and the destitute out into the streets because of "our" evil ways.
Horrible, hateful monsters.
I am overjoyed to hear it. As late as Wednesday, this week, that unholy C U next Tuesday from NOM proclaimed at the CATA Institute that they were just going to toss the poor and the destitute out into the streets because of "our" evil ways.
Horrible, hateful monsters.
