PROOF That H.E. Washers DON'T Save Water!

[DADoES]

 
Maytag85, the points you listed are not related to the term automatic.

Taken for what the points are:

1)  Maybe.

2) Both types can clean nicely but a frontloader that can do a profile wash by way of onboard water heating is hard for a toploader to beat.

3)  Low-end toploaders are less cost but there are low- and mid-line frontloaders that cost less than the highly-respected SQ toploaders.

4)  Not always.

5)  True.

6)  Limited to an increasingly lesser degree being that non-HE detergents seem to be disappearing from the market.

7)  Both types perform the intended function.

 

[iej]

Have I entered the religious washer war thread? Top vs Front!!

Not very many of those points hold up and a front loader with recirculation can typically do a full load in about an hour or so.

They absolutely do clean very well. There’s really no debate on that one.

Also how are they “less automatic” ?

In some ways they’re *more* automatic, as they can do things like dispense pre wash detergent, main wash detergent and softener automatically as standard. Most of them also have endless cycle options compared to typical top load machines.

My experience of both types is that top loaders are fast but don’t necessarily wash as well and definitely cannot be loaded as densely, due to the washing motion needing to suspend the clothes in water.

Also I found TL machines I’ve used (in the US and here) much rougher on clothes. I got pilling on clothes I’ve never had in a front loader.

Both systems work but I would say the only advantage of top loaders is cycle speed.
Front loaders are definitely more water efficient and definitely can wash far more effectively and gently, but use significantly longer cycles to do so.

But each to their own! I wouldn’t really like a TL machine as I find them too rough on some of my favorite items.

 

[Chetlaham]

And I think I am being misunderstood again as my posts are getting fewer likes then those below me. I will be very blunt: FRONT LOAD, AND TOP LOAD WASHERS ON HE SETTINGS, USE FAR LESS WATER. I'm on your side guys. I come in agreement

 

[yogitunes]

I know, y'all came back to read this, just for a good laugh!!!...

that wasn't an opinion, that was a FACT ! ! !.....

 

[Chetlaham]

I say a real test with a laundry tub is in order.

 

[cfz2882]

laundry tub test

I use a laundry tub,and a few weeks back swapped my '82 SQ marathon(classic traditional top load)for 2010 VMW Cabrio(topload HE washplate unit)and discovered the cabrio uses a little less than half the water as the SQ running a load that would be considered large in the smaller capacity vintage SQ.similar size load in the '01 He3 frontload discharged ~20-30%less drainwater than the cabrio.The cabrio will deliver impressive wash results as long as load large enough to get good circulation.Cabrio generates plenty of lint though,a little more than the SQ and a lot more than the He3

 

[Chetlaham]

And that is something you should have put on Youtube. I think thats what will really tell the truth.

 

[cfz2882]

Forgot to mention...

these 3 machines all ran similar wash times:53 min. cabrio,45 He3,and SQ probably ~45 min.

 

[earthling177]

Sean (Maytag85) said: "I've said this before, but top loads will always be the true and althentic automatic washer.

Yes, front loaders are automatic washers, but they aren't as automatic as a traditional top loader.

And then offered more statements:

"1. Top loaders can get a fairly large load cleaned in about 30-35 minutes, or even less time than that.

2. Front loaders don't clean as well as a traditional top load washer.

3. Traditional top loaders are cheaper to buy, and are more reliable than a newer front loader.

4. Front loaders are difficult to repair, and require a lot of labor to repair.

5. You can use any detergent you want in a traditional top load washer.

6. Detergent choices are limited when you have a front loader, or any HE washer.

7. Top loaders plain work, and do what they are supposed to do."

Not sure exactly what he means by "authentic", but let's just say that the *original* or *first* automatic washer was the Bendix front loader.

As for "you can use any detergent with a toploader", I would like to point out that no, you can't. And if you want to, ask anyone who lives in say, South America, to send you a little of their standard detergents. It will foam up so much that suds will flow between the top of the tub and the machine housing, usually causing problems with machines that have unprotected parts, like electric motors. What Sean does not know is that even "standard" "high-sudsing" detergents like Tide sold in the last 25 years in US are actually "controlled suds" detergents. When you try a detergent that has *no* suds suppression agents you will see very quickly that you need the scoop of detergent to clean clothes, but without suds suppression, even with a toploader, you won't be able to add even 1/2 a scoop. And it won't clean worth a damn.

What you have been witnessing in US is weakly controlled suds vs. heavy controlled suds for frontloaders. And to be honest, Sean, you will be even happier, top- or front-loading, when you finally try zero suds detergents. *Then* you can use enough to clean and get everything rinsed. But your "thesis" that one can use *any* detergent with toploaders is crap. I spent years in South America paying much more for a controlled suds detergent (Skip) because the "standard" detergents either caused machines to malfunction or didn't rinse, forcing you to repeat the rinse cycle multiple times. You have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

I will not address the other points individually -- I think it suffices to say that I have *many* friends who go to Pennsic every year. (See link below.) The ones that have frontloaders just do their laundry in their own homes with their own equipment. The ones that have toploaders usually ask people like me if they can come over after Pennsic and spend a day doing laundry in our home, where they not only will do half the loads, because the frontloaders are much larger than their toploaders, but also they get the clothes cleaner without *any* more work than putting the clothes in, loading detergent and pressing "start".

Sean, we're not saying that you *have* to like frontloaders, in fact you are allowed to hate them and love your toploader(s).

But if you are gonna spread misinformation, you will have a hard time, because we are tired of hearing dozens of lies everyday on the fake news and tweets that a certain citizen and his cronies are subjecting us to.

It's a scientific fact that can be proven over and over and over again, and my friends know it: toploaders were great improvement in the 40's and 50's and they are nice to have for anyone who needs clothes that are not very dirty washed clean. But if you have *very* dirty clothes, you will be *much* better off *nowadays* if you can wash them in a HE machine -- and currently they offer both top loading and front loading HE washers, take your pick.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.

http://https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsic_War

 

[agiflow2]

I said it once and I'll say it again. My Maytag Bravos I had nearly 5 years ago got my white socks clean like no other washer I ever had or used. The difference was noticeable. That low water and the impeller made like a scrub board effect.

This thing about heavy linting with an HE top loader I found to not be true. I have my father who used to Leave his tissues in his pockets and not once did any of them shred up. On a few occasions they were still folded up in his pockets.

In a regular top loader there would be pieces of paper tissue all over the clothes and basket

That was the one thing i couldn't fault that Bravos for. It was a great cleaner. Everything else about it was less than stellar.

 

[speedqueen]

What this thread became...

I had a feeling of dread and mortification whilst reading this thread, I know Sean has opposing beliefs to most here and very often voices them even if they are based on incorrect logic at times, but there is no need for everyone to be rude in their counter-arguments or to go as far as to claim to block him from appearing in threads they read.

To make a comparison that I could be set on fire for, NOBODY criticizes Hans(norgeway) for his differing opinions to everyone else or but people feel free to pile on Sean(Maytag85). I have a deep respect for both!

 

[Chetlaham]

Blocking people

There is some deep, unchecked elitism that runs rampant on this forum. I disagree with others all the time; but I don't become rude, insult their intelligence or put them on my ignore list. I agree to disagree what ever the reason may be. Somehow people mix up respecting other's feeling/opinions/observations/knowledge as agreeing with them which is not the case.

 

[speedqueen]

Eliteism indeed...

I, too have noticed it. There are times I feel as if my posts are ignored because I'm not one of, shall we say, the popular members, and I've seen it done to others too.

I can see why some have decided to abandon the forum, I stay because there is so much to like about this forum too. The are many smart people here that are glad to help and have gave so much information, these people are why I stay and regularly read.

 

[foraloysius]

Well, there really is a difference between Hans and Sean. Hans sounds like a broken record sometimes but his remarks are based on emotion and love for older appliances, the reason why this website excists. So I can understand that. Sean however continues to feed the frontloader vs toploader discussion with false arguments. I understand very well why people like toploaders or frontloaders, but the discussion of which type is better has been beaten to death hundreds of times. Every time I read that discussion I think: Please! Not again! I posted in another thread: And never the twain shall meet. I wish we could bury that discussion and respect eachother's opinion on the toploader vs frontloader preference. But I've pretty much lost my hope that that will happen.

 

[speedqueen]

I partially agree with you,

but the HE vs non HE discussion was going long before Sean showed up in this thread; just look at the title. What did happen when Sean joined the argument was everyone immediately dropped what they were doing and took aim at him. It is certainly fair to counter his claims, but it was done in such a condescending tone that was completely unnecessary and very rude.

Also, when he says things unrelated to this sort of controversy inducing debate, people are still rude to him. For example, when he posted about wanting a Maytag HOH dryer, everyone told him he was foolish to want one. And that is coming from people who themselves own 50 year old appliances. Isn't that the point of the forum?

 

[thomasortega]

I have only two words to say:

Rolling eyes.

 

[Chetlaham]

And thats the second part of the problem- some people just don't care thats its happening.

@speedqueen: Yup, and spot on. I see and feel the same way. But like you the love and appreciation for both old and new keeps me coming back as well as the smart people who post here. Smart people who I think don't get enough credit.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Just see at as in More room for clothes!

Look to today's POD: "The center-post problem, Gone for Good!", then see the water savings, either way...

-- Dave

 

[tomturbomatic]

I think some of the reaction is due to some people confusing opinions with facts and are trying to jam their personal preferences down our throats as gospel. Those of us who have been doing laundry for more than half a century tend to have a body of knowledge garnered from research and personal experience with more machines than a lot of younger people here have even seen pictures of and might feel that someone making a pronouncement like this is perceived of as someone pissing on our leg and telling us it is raining. Any washing machine that completes a full wash, rinse and spin cycle, or a selected part thereof, and shuts itself off is automatic based on the Greek "automatos" meaning self acting.

The reason not to blast fellow club members out of the water over things like this is that many of us here occupy a place on the "spectrum" and our attractions to appliances and their workings can go along with quirks in expressing our arguments making them sound more dogmatic than they were perhaps intended. There is nothing wrong, however, with demanding evidence for arguments advanced, especially when they seem to provoke a WTH? response.

 

[earthling177]

Richard:

I can certainly explain somewhat why some people get blasted and some people don't so much.

Just as a metaphor, but equally likely to trigger kerfuffle: let's say that I claim that I love strawberry pies but hate rhubarb and thus every strawberry rhubarb pie. Someone else comes and says they love rhubarb and strawberry rhubarb pies are their favorite. So far, there's nothing to say. It's personal preference, and that's exactly why I told Sean he's more than welcome to hate frontloaders and love toploaders. It's no weirder than loving coffee vs. disliking tea and vice-versa.

Now, imagine that I went further than that and claimed that the only good pies are strawberry rhubarb pies and anyone would be foolish not to like them and everything else is crap, don't you know that rhubarb is packed with essential vitamins and minerals, including vitamin K, the vitamin B complex and manganese and magnesium, not to mention fiber?

Of course, that would open the door for everyone to claim that rhubarb is *maybe* safe in medicinal amounts for up to 3 months, and can cause stomach and intestinal pain, diarrhea, uterine contractions, muscular weakness, bone loss, potassium loss, irregular heart rhythm and the oxalic acid in rhubarb can cause kidney stones.

The problem is not that Sean likes one thing and dislikes/hates another. The problem is when he confuses "I like this" with "this is the best". No one only likes the best things. Just because I like my car, doesn't make my car the best. Just because Sean hates my car (it's modern), doesn't make it the worst.

Like I told you before, I've seen this cycle many times in the website and way too many times in the internet at large. At first, and to people not paying attention, this is an interaction that is very hard to anyone to distinguish between the person is a troll and the person is in the spectrum, which lots of people here are.

That is one of the reasons I've been trying to gently nudge/persuade Sean into a slightly different mode of interaction, where he can express his preferences and avoid saying things that are vaguely true to blatant falsehoods. Because in the current climate, people here that are tired of being lied to *will* have a very hard time resisting the impulse to respond with scientific proofs.

And it's very hard sometimes to make those not sound condescending, and condescending always makes people sound elitist.

I've known a lot of people here *personally*, for almost two decades now. They are not elitist, quite the contrary.

For example, I do not have *any* high end cars, but I will recognize that some of those are *much* much better than any cars I've had over the years. This is not elitism, this is recognizing truth when one sees it. In fact, an awful lot of things my cars have had over the years, like air conditioning, anti-lock brakes, electronic stability control, all-wheel drive, power brakes, power steering, automatic transmission, air bags, seat belts etc came from high-end cars once.

I say this with sincerity: when in doubt, it's best to *ask* about details, instead of proclaiming things that may not be true. It's also best to phrase things in such a way that they are "I" statements, so, instead of "toploaders are the only authentic automatic washers", one might say "I like/prefer top loading automatic washers".

I hope this helps,
   -- Paulo.

 

[speedqueen]

Thanks Paulo,

For injecting a bit of sanity here. I do appreciate how you explain your rational. I'm still laughing at the rhubarb pie analogy.

People can counter what Sean said all they want but carrying a disdain into anything he writes on other threads is where I draw the line. I reiterate what I said regarding what others told him when he mentioned wanting a Maytag HOH dryer. They told him he was foolish to wan one and argued with him just to do that, argue.