Prop 8

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

panthera

Well-known member
Platinum Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Messages
2,825
Location
Rocky Mountains
We are down to the last eight days now and it looks bad for human rights in California.
The christianists are very close to actually stripping a minority of their human rights through constitutional revision.
The entire basis of American democracy has always been the protection of the minority against the tyranny of the majority.
The traditional, the conservative view of the Constitution has always been that it grant rights, not take them away.
Any thoughts from you folks in California on how it is going?
Is there anything non-natives can do to help you?

I wonder if all the blacks and Mexicans supporting this realise that they are next, if constitutional discrimination passes.
 
The polls I've seen still have Prop 8 losing by 5-10 points. Every major newspaper in the state has urged a NO vote, even those in conservative (some, very conservative) inland counties.

In the long-term though, it doesn't matter if this amendment passes. Same-sex marriage is being recognized by more and more countries every year, and eventually U.S. positions (both state and federal) will be completely irrelevant.
 
Thanks, Jeff

I am happy to hear that, it is certainly the opposite of what we are getting over here in Europe. Here, with the assistance of the Mexican and black votes, the amendment is said to be picking up steam.
I do think the amendment matters in the here and now. Once you start making discrimination against a group which currently enjoys human rights legal, you are going down the same path the Nazis did.
 
The christianists have been running TV ads making false alarmist claims that California public schools will begin teaching 2nd graders about same sex marriage. The Mormons have been dumping serious money into the Yes on 8 campaign. Talk about hypocrisy--the Mormon population is full of gays. The christianists are on total red alert over this and have mobilized, closing the margin that has existed for defeat of this proposition to make it a very tight contest. There isn't a more loathesome an hypocritical group than they are, and they are being lead by men who fit the classic mold of those who are frightened by their own sexual urges.

I don't have the slightest inclination to marry my partner, as marriage is a sacrament and I have no use for organized religion's stamp of approval. A civil union that provides me and my partner the same rights as breeder couples is all I feel is necessary, but those same sex couples who do want to marry should have the right to do so.

Somebody needs to enforce the whole separation of church and state thing around here. It's way out of hand. I say, deny tax-free status to any church that makes political endorsements of any kind. So many christianist groups are shams and scams anyway. Yet their sheep followers are so blind and practice such selective memory that they don't even wise up after seeing the Jim Bakers and Ted Haggert types exposed for what they really are. You can't get more Stepford than that.
 
I've heard the same thing, the proposition is losing in the polls. However that has only spurred the proponents of the ban to intensify their TV and radio ad campaign. It's interesting to see how they twist the facts, i.e., "Children in kindergarten will have to be taught that boys can marry boys", when in fact there is no requirement that marriage be taught in schools in the first place. Another claim, "Everyone will be forced to accept gay marriage, even if it's against their religious principles, and churches may lose their tax exempt status", etc etc etc, also seems to be an extreme interpretation of the result of not banning same sex marriage. Supposedly all these things have happened in Massachusetts although I figure that claim is also based on half-truths or outright lies.

Anyway, I just mailed in my mail-in ballot and voted NO on prop 8. I doubt that any of the horror stories the proponents are circulating will occur, but if they do, I'm sure they'll be back with another proposition to ban gay marriage in the future. California is a great place to live, but the referendum/initiative process is largely broken. It doesn't make much sense to me that the constitution can be amended by a simple majority vote but the state budget requires a 2/3 majority in the legislature, which has resulted in budget stalemates and late budgets nearly every year for the past decade or two. Even worse are the deceptive initiatives that claim to be for something but in fact are designed to undermine a previous initiative that was really for the same thing.

Add to that the fact that our local government is trying to disguise tax hikes in various ways, such as turning fees into taxes and then claiming that the new rate will be lower, when in fact the fees are due to expire or be invalidated by court order anyway. But I did vote in favor of the high speed railway between Sac/SF/LA. It's long overdue.
 
I sent money to the "NO" on Prop 8 group the other day. They desperately need money to keep up the ad campaign to let people know how unfair this amendment is. Hopefully they can turn the tide.

For many of us, this is a prime example of how important your vote is not only for local elections but for the presidential race as well. The next president will most likely have the ability/responsibility to re-shape the Supreme Court, structuring it for possibly several generations.

 
From an e-mail I received

This arrived in my "inbox" last week and after reading it I turned around and sent it to EVERYONE I know. While I'm pretty sure all are voting NO, but I had to send it anyway.

The guy who wrote it does work at the firm listed, I checked.

Please read and share/e-mail to anyone you think is on the fence!

Thanks!
Kevin

P.S. I added the "vote no on prob 8" below, it was not in the e-mail.
=============

This is an open letter that was written by a Senior Partner of Morrison & Foerster in San Francisco. Jim Brosnahan wrote a letter to Professor Richard Peterson , Pepperdine University, asking to debate him on Prop 8. Richard Peterson is the law professor in the "Yes on Prop 8" TV commercials.

A Debate With Myself on Proposition 8

Jim Brosnahan

10-17-2008

This is a one-sided debate that is addressed to you, Richard Peterson. You have listed yourself as a faculty member of Pepperdine University School of Law and you have, as is your right under the First Amendment, broadcast your views throughout the state in a pro-Proposition 8 advertisement.

I wrote you a polite letter and I asked you to debate the measure but I have heard nothing and I take it you're not going to respond. Therefore, if you don't mind, I would like to express to you and anybody who reads this my thoughts on the points that you make and what's wrong with them. In my view, your points are deeply flawed, misleading and, at times, an attempt to play on the fear of the viewer unfairly.

Here goes:

First, in California, when there are two people who are in love and who are committed to each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together, they should have, as declared under the law, every right to be married like anybody else.

In support of Prop 8, you have falsely suggested that churches would have a tax problem if the initiative were not passed. Prop 8 should be defeated and its defeat will not cause any problem to churches. Churches have the protection of the First Amendment. They are free to marry or not marry anyone they wish and they would not lose their tax-exempt status as you suggest. Your point is unworthy of a law professor.

In a similar vein of attempting to frighten people, you have suggested that somehow, if Prop 8 does not pass, little children will be taught about same-sex marriage in school, and that this will be bad for them. As others have pointed out, there is no requirement that schools have to teach anything about marriage, and furthermore, whatever is taught will be determined by the local school boards.

I would have thought, sir, as I assume you are a religious person, that you understand and have indeed taught that God has made all of us, not just some of us. If we are in God's image, then we must accept all of God's children. This is fundamental and you should accept it.

With regard to your religion, it has no place in the California Constitution, just as I am sure that you would not want me to enshrine my religion in our state's laws. I not only respect your religion, but have, in court, defended people's right to practice their religion. But it still should not be put into the Constitution.

You have presented yourself as a law professor and indeed you are, but the courses you've taught seem to have nothing to do with the Constitution. You are not, as far as I can determine, a person who has studied the constitutional law of this country, taught it, or litigated it in cases involving it. Perhaps I am wrong, but your school Web site's biography does not show it. Therefore, as you present yourself as an expert in the California Constitution, I would seriously question your credentials to do that.

Your commercials attack the judges of California. This is despicable for a number of reasons. One, you are a law professor and you know better. Two, they cannot answer you, they cannot fight back because it's against the rules that govern judges and you know that. More important is the fact that those judges did what they thought was right under the law and they deserve your respect and the respect of the people of California. They are learned, they are studious and they believe that people in California under the Constitution are entitled to equality and equal rights. It is one of the most fundamental constitutional principles that govern and indeed protects all of us.

Equality itself involves the rights of citizens and the rights of minorities. As many Californians are minorities, this is fundamental to any understanding of our Constitution. As a lawyer, I am sure you have been told this many times. So the suggestion that the majority should be allowed to oppress a minority or to deny a minority equal protection is one that you ought to know is not governed by the California Constitution and should not be.

Further, you should know that U.S. Supreme Court authority says that you cannot write discrimination into a state constitution. There are cases that have held exactly that, which would mean that Prop 8 would be a dead letter.

The history of marriage includes the history of using it as a weapon against unpopular or despised groups. I could give you many precedents and if we ever do debate, sir, I would be happy to suggest a few to you where certain groups were not allowed to marry as a manifestation of social opprobrium. This history has, for example, included race until it was struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court and the California Supreme Court. Before it was struck down, a white person could not marry a black person. That sad history should not be resurrected in Prop 8 and that is one of the reasons this initiative should be defeated.

The people that you attempt to discriminate against are our friends, our neighbors, our colleagues. They are people who pay taxes, they are people who fight and die in our military, they serve in our police forces and our fire departments. In every way possible they participate in our society and our culture. They do everything that they can as citizens of California, and yet you want to put it in the Constitution that they be denied a fundamental right, the important right of marriage which is so central to one's life.

Sir, there is not enough love in this world and what love there is should be nurtured and not opposed by a state government and certainly by a state constitution.

There are a lot more arguments but these will have to suffice. I am voting no on Prop 8 and I am asking anybody I can find to do the same.

If you ever want to debate this issue before Nov. 4, please let me know.

Very truly yours,
Jim Brosnahan

Jim Brosnahan is a senior partner at Morrison & Foerster in San Francisco. The views expressed are solely those of the author. As a matter of policy, Morrison & Foerster does not endorse political candidates or initiatives.

10-27-2008-16-47-42--revvinkevin.jpg
 
Two replies I rec'd after sending it out......

Just sharing their comments.....

#1 And don’t forget the giant fallacy that same-sex marriage somehow “threatens” heterosexual marriage, as if it will disallow or even discourage one by allowing the other. I have no idea why anyone would believe that. Imagine a straight man thinking, “Hmm, now I can marry a man or a woman. I think I’ll dump my fiancée and find a guy now that there’s a choice!”

And since unholy matrimony, along with loveless, childless and for that matter clueless marriage are all legal, where is the sanctity of which they speak?

Lying in the name of religion...doesn’t get much more hypocritical than that, does it?

Thanks for sending this along...

And #2 Excellent! Pepperdine in Malibu is generally a conservative and religious oriented school. It's connected to the Church of Christ and their sister schools in the South don't even permit dancing or co-ed swimming! However this is California so they just had to allow co-ed swimming and dances are held off campus.
 
Well written

Thanks, Kevin.
What is your take on things? Everything I am reading is so colored by the journalist's own bias, I don't know what to believe.
I do know that we gays have enjoyed full human rights here in Europe for some time and, so far, the sky hasn't fallen nor have straight men stopped marrying women. It is said that from my generation on down, the percentage of fake marriages to cover is declining rapidly. Gosh, the poor women. Can you imagine marriage to a man who can only feel platonic love for you?
 
Can you imagine marriage to a man who can only feel platonic

If you get a chance, and haven't already, view "Delovely" which is a biopic about Cole Porter starring Kevin Kline as Cole Porter. He had a long and loving if at times rocky marriage to a woman who was ambivalent about sex and had been brutalized by her first husband, but who truly loved Cole - and he, her. They even tried to have a child because they felt it would enhance their relationship, but she miscarried and they gave up the effort. And of course he was as gay as they, ahem, come and she seemed to be ok with his choices - as long as they didn't hurt him as a person, which they sometimes did.

I don't know how accurate the script or portrayal is, but the music alone is worth the cost of the DVD. And Kline gives his usual inspired and witty performance.

What this has to do with Prop 8, I don't know. But perhaps we need to include "marriage can be between people of the same, different, nonexistent, or multiple sexual preferences" in the discussion, and leave it at that.
 
Rich,

I certainly did see the film. The sexual tension between Kline and Barrowman on stage was electric.
Ironically, one of Kline's greatest problems was not pretending to be gay, but to cope with the singing. The problem being, he can sing and Cole Porter, famously, had a three note range. All three of which were flat...

I'm very conservative on the subject of marriage. This is probably the result of, one growing up in that happy period between the sexual revolution and AIDS...sex was free and fun and the worst you cold get was curable. At a very young age, I was blessed with a marriage to a wonderful man. A Celtic Handfasting (we were Wiccans in San Francisco before it became vogue). His death came far too soon, but I learned that it is in a monogamous, committed relationship that I am at most myself.
Not saying other people shouldn't be free to fcuk like bunnies, although it has been my experience that when one partner says he wants an open relationship, what he really means is...open for him, straight-laced and exclusive for his partner.

I have never seen nor heard of a bi-sexual/ or bi-sexual/straight woman relationship in which the non-bi partner was not the seriously, badly neglected and maimed victim. No doubt bi-sexuality exists for women, for men, there is no scientific evidence, only political correctness. I don't deny the theoretical possibility, but whereas I know of many happy gay couples and many happy straight couples, I have yet to see one conjoining of a bi-sexual with a gay man or a straight woman which has ever produced anything but unhappiness for the non-bi partner. Maybe if I had ever seen a bi-bi relationship, I would have another opinion. Obviously, someone who is 'questioning' beyond the age of 14 or so shouldn't even be considering marriage. What a horrid thing to do to the woman!
(I am, of course, talking about relationships which are purportedly exclusive.)

Should my partner honor me with his hand, then, yes, it is not only for his wit (in both senses, I like being with someone smarter than me, not that that is particularly hard to do), his attractiveness, his justice and generous heart but also because I get hard just thinking about us. I can understand age and disease reducing sex at the end of one's life. In a marriage, if that romantic component, that essential feeling: His happiness is the key to mine is not there, then, nope - 'tis perhaps friendship, but not ground for marriage.
That said, I do think civil partnerships should be open to all who wish to adopt that special person in their lives.
 
Back
Top