Question for Washertalk and Others

[panthera]

Well put, Chris and Steve -

I read Lee Iacoca's first autobiography many years ago. He mentioned that he and his family tended either towards the republicans or the democrats depending on how well they were doing financially. In times when he was fighting to save a few hundred-thousand jobs (and a few million more in third-tier industries) it was the democrats who pragmatically helped
For me, it is really a very simple question: Do I want to be part of a functioning society? If so, then I need to find a way to prevent any one group from abusing their power
US-Americans have the special situation in that most people grow up learning that their version of capitalism is the only "true" one and everything else is either communism or socialism or fascism...or something just as bad or worse
I am not advocating any of the three horrors - living in Europe I have had the chance to see the aftermath of all three "pure" systems. But this black/white way of thinking makes it very easy for nay-sayers to attack any ideas which have proven successful in other cultures. Every other major democracy/industrial country spends less per capita on health care and every single other one has healthier workers. Which are a strong basis for a strong economy. Not to mention those who, through no fault of their own, are too weak to pay for health services
The ironic thing about US "capitalism" is that it is anything but "pure lassiz faire". Whenever the US government talks about truly rescinding import tariffs and making possible the truly level playing field so many "capitalists" claim they want, the screams of anguish from the private sector echo from shore to shore. In what way has the current range crop of republicans helped the economy? Protected their country? Upheld the constitution? I find myself increasingly looking back at Ronny Rayguns, Mad Maggie and Tricky-Dicky and thinking: gosh, they weren't all that bad, after all. At least they all understood the principle: The majority may only justly rule as long as the rights of the minority are not abrogated.

 

[mulls]

Medical care

Chris,I enjoyed-and learned from-your description of how medical needs are handled there.It is a real problem here,especially for those who are not bums but work for a modest wage,or the self employed like myself.Medical insurance for myself and my wife costs me $600 per month WITH A 5200$ DEDUCTIBLE!The other side is that the premium-and contributions to my health savings account-are deductible.The bottom line is thay our health care costs me $800 per month.This is a bitter pill to swallow(pun intended),but swallow it I will before I will take money earned by others to lower my own costs.I can't speak for your country,but in mine almost everybody wants the cost of something subsidised-medical care,college costs,something-and the net effect is that everything gets subsidised to some degree.That is the reason our tax rates are so astronomical.With federal,medicare,social security,state,county,city,gas,sales,and all the others anyone having any success at all in life is paying almost half their income to government entities-literally a crime.Our problem goes back tothe Great Society programs-since then it has been just as lucrative to not work as to work.Reference was made earlier to someone making $10 per hour not being able to afford medical,and that is true.Here is where the dividing line is.Do you hold out your hand and expect someone else to pay it for you,or do you work another 10 hours a week part time and pay it yourself?I know what I would do-and in fact it IS what I do-work harder and longer
Tom

 

[MikeS]

Not All Republicans Were Bad

Speaking as a Democrat (and one who can't wait to see a Democratically-controlled Congresss after November 7th), I have to provide some sympathy to my friends across the aisle. After all, history shows each party made blunders that cost them power or success. This time, the wheel has landed on the GOP. Difference is that this time, its leader is not a person willing to compromise for the greater good. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush 41 were willing to reach across the aisle to get their goals acomplished. Bush 43 is either unwilling or simply afraid. He may have to get over it after 11/7. And ironically, increased Democrat power may be the one thing that will save this president's hide in the next two years
Finally, an aside to the GOP: Yes, you have homosexuals in your ranks. Start treating them like the human beings they are. If the Mark Foley scandal hasn't taught you anything, hopefully it will teach you that. But considering the rhetoric I've heard over the past few weeks, I'm not hoping for a miracle anytime soon.

 

[dalangdon]

"...Swallow it I will before I will take money earned by others to lower my own costs.&quot <br
Too late, you're already doing it. That's the principle behind private insurance: Pool your risk, and pay out accordingly. You're just being played by an insurance company <br
Right now, you are just paying an exhorbiant premium for (God willing) very little return on the dollar. You're actually paying for other people to get treatment for illness, and you're paying for a ridiculous amount of red tape and administrative costs. <br
The flip side is, if you or your wife were to get ill, you would receive treatment worth far more than what you are paying in. IF the insurance company will pay out on your claims. <br
Interestingly enough, Medicare is generally recognized as the most efficient insurance plan out there, and it allows for much greater choice of physician and care than most private insurance policies. The reasonable way to address healthcare would be to remove the age restriction on medicare and open it up to everybody, with the private companies handling the paperwork and offering boutique healthcare insurance (plastic surgery insurance, liposuction insurance, rest home supplamental insurance - stuff like that <br
The insurance companies fight this, of course, putting out propaganda, and enough people believe it that the more cowardly or beholden politicians won't touch it, and we will be stuck with the status quo until the whole thing collapses and we will have to reinvent it. <br
That's why we are number 24 in life expectency, and 36th in infant mortality.

 

[panthera]

Tom

I am a strong advocate of working to earn one's own way. Between teaching at a technical university and running my own small business, I frequently put in 80 hour weeks
Nothing to be proud of - but at least I have work
At the same time, affordable health care should, in my opinion, be made available in exactly the same way that affordable auto insurance and other insurance schemes are in the US
There are too many families who live on that 10$/hour wage, who can not add on another job and who see their children suffer because there is no affordable insurance in your country
I think most Americans are basically good people - but there is a very strong tendency among you to forget 43 million or so who are without even the most basic of protection. I am not saying "give it to them". But what sort of society do you want? One of increasing poverty, crime and run-away health costs? I repeat: Every single other "advanced" economy has some form of affordable health care for its citizens and residents. And all of them spend less per capita then you do in the US. That is not very capitalistic when you think about it
I apologize if this sounds overly aggressive - it is really one of those things which causes folks every where else in the western world we all shake our heads and wonder.

 

[58limited]

I think everyone should be able to obtain health care. I am not that familiar with the health care systems in other countries and I tend to not believe what politicians and the media try to tell me about it. Chris' description of Austalia's health care system sounds good <br
One thing I worry about too much government involvement is this: My mother, who passed away 4/05, had COPD (obstructive lung disease) and emphysema. She had to have an electric oxygen generating machine at all times in her house and portable tanks when shopping. She had a very close friend from Great Britain who's brother has the same condition. The government health system would not provide him with one of these oxygen machines and he couldn't afford one. My mom's friend said that it was because of his age. This kind of stuff was given to younger people because older people have already lived a long life and the money should be spent on younger people. She said this philosophy was also used in reguards to organ transplants. She also felt the doctors were not as diligent or ambitious because their salaries are capped and they have no incentive to excel. <br
Can anyone please tell me if any of this is true - in G. Britain or any other country <br
If it is, it scares me to think that our politicians might implement a system like that in the U.S. I think the insurance and pharmaceutical industries need reforming, as well as some aspects of the legal system. I believe everyone should have access to medical care and equipment based on need, not age. I do not think doctor's salaries should be capped. I think they should be paid in accordance with their expertise. I have heard some people say they think doctors make too much, but if their salaries are capped, then are we going to cap the salaries of lawyers, engineers, and other professionals? If we cap the salary of one group, it is highly unfair not to cap salaries of other highly paid professionals, and this goes against the deep seated capitalism that most Americans believe in, whether it is really true or not: The American Dream where anyone, with hard work, can be a success.

 

[panthera]

David,

This is absolutely not true for the system in Germany. Nor is it, generally, true for Great Britain. The health care system in the UK is often, sadly, presented to US-Americans as an example of what would happen should health care in the US be "nationalized." The UK system is, without doubt, the worst in Western Europe - tho' 1000X times better than the lack of care in the US. A person with money in the UK would have exactly the same care they needed as would a person with money in the US. As for the "caps", well - a dear friend of mine is a doctor here in Munich. She just finished her fourth advanced medical degree - her field of medicine changes at a very basic level every few years
She works, nominally 38.5 hours a week. In the last three years, she has never once had a week under 65 hours...and frequently those are back to backs...yup, 36 hours in one go
She makes good money - and she deserves every cent of it
I think you are right - when you start capping salaries, you begin an unfair process which never ends

 

[58limited]

Panthera

Thanks for the info. Makes me feel better. I wasn't sure if any of my information was accurate or not. I knew Germany's system was OK. I was a medical laboratory technician in the Army Reserve and I was sent to Germany twice, and I loved every minute of it. Beautiful country and beer that puts American "Kinderbier" to shame, hence the craft brew movement in America. I started homebrewing beer in College because I couldn't afford good German beer, which often costs $3.50 for one 1/2 liter bottle of hefe weisse. I found it quite humorous that, at the time I was in Germany, beer was cheaper at restaurants that coca cola <br
Anyway, you are right that Britain's healthcare system is presented to the American public as negative and therefore is used as the reason that America should not nationalize healthcare.

 

[pushtorelease]

Our system here in Canada is very similar to Australia's - we pay a certain amount a month, unless your annual earnings are below a set limit, then it's free. Pharmacare looks after prescriptions after a yearly deductible of I believe, $500. I have never heard of anyone being denied treatment or things such as oxygen cannisters because of their age and I imagine it would be a front page scandal if such a thing were to happen.

 

[petek]

Canada's national health care program is overseen by the federal government but each province has control over how they spend their money and on what. Your monthly payments do not go to the federal government, they go to your provincial (state)health department. Therefore you can have some procedures covered in one province and not the next, the level of care can also be different province to province but in the big scheme of things they're pretty similar. For example most provincial health care plans no longer cover circumcisions except for Manitoba where the procedure is free. Any other province you would have to pay for it. The basic tenent of the system is that it's affordable and it must by law be portable. i.e. a person from one province who is visiting another province gets sick or injured cannot be denied medical services.
What happens in the US is that the scaremongers dredge up horror stories about line-ups, poor quality care etc. having people believe that our doctors offices and hospitals etc look like something out of 1950's Russia or something. Nothing is further from the truth. You can go to any doctor you like, unlike in the USA where most HMO's force you to certain doctors or won't prescribe certain drugs because they are not on that particular HMO's forumlary for coverage, how wonderful and free is that.
Certainly there are some things about the Canadian system that people gripe about..for example..you may need knee surgery but it might not be life threatening, painful or sore maybe, you might have to wait a few months, maybe less, but at least you will get that surgery and not have to pay for it. No one in Canada waits for anything if they have life threatening problems, you go in immediately
How much does it cost? I was paying about $55 month for coverage in Alberta, deducted from my paycheque. A family of any size would pay about $86. I think the other provinces like here in Ontario they just take the amount from your yearly taxes rather than from your paycheque.

 

[petek]

Here's an example of a medi horror that happened in our family a couple of years ago
My elder sister now 56 was born with congenital heart defects in 1950 and beset by rheumatoid arthritis in her early teens. She has had operations galore as a baby at one of the worlds finest childrens hospitals Toronto Sick Kids. When pacemakers became available she was fitted with one when she needed it and goes in every 6 months to have it checked out at Toronto General. After she left one of those checkups a couple of years ago, she and my mother who was accompanying her took the 3 hour train trip home from Toronto and got back here about 11pm. When they got in the house the phone was ringing and it was the Toronto General telling them she had to come back immediately to the hospital because they had found something seriously wrong. Well it was 11pm and 180 miles away, so what did they do.. they told her to get to the little airport in sarnia and they'd have a plane ready to fly her and they did. Now how on earth if my sister was living in the USA on a disability that is no fault of her, she is totally unable to work, would she be able to afford health insurance to have kept her alive all these years and provide such service? That's why I said when I walk my dogs alongside the river each day and look at the US side I'm so glad I live here. <br
It's all fine and dandy as well for the naysayers to say we'll look after our own family.. well who is going to look after you children or grandkids after you've popped off and all of a sudden a horrible medical tradgedy affects one of them and they don't have insurance at the time because they've lost their job or whatever? Very shortsighted and selfish I think.

 

[agiflow]

We seem to be a system of every man for himself. I guess if we make more money,..have careers that pay top dollars we can view ourselves as being better then the guy making minimum wage or limited in skills. We deserve better treatment because we are "successful". Bullshit....i know that was a simplistic statement, but that is the nature of a capatalistic society <br
I got mine screw you. He who has the most toys....still DIES!!!

 

[gyrafoam]

The same old Republican mantra <br
If you are rich: Congratulations--you deserve it
If you are poor: Congratulations--you deserve it <br
Not all of the poor people CHOOSE to be that way and it is the responsibility of any civilized society to help them out.

 

[rickr]

I got mine and, I will take part of yours <br
o <br
You have nothing, so have part of mine.

 

[westytoploader]

I agree 100% with what Peter said. The government needs to keep to the IMPORTANT national issues that we face day-to-day, instead of getting into everyone's pants (which is what they're doing with this whole gay politics thing). Petty issues are really non-issues in my opinion. Do they have 'special politics' for heterosexuals such as myself? Of course not! Sexuality is NOT a race or ethnicity and should not be perceived that way either; we are ALL equal in that aspect <br
"So you think you can manipulate the poor little queers...&quot <br
Ahh, so when you can't make a VALID statement, you have to resort to little mind games? THAT is manipulation right there, Scotty; what irony. I know the only reason most of you are considering the GOP "homophobic" is that they will not refer to gay marriage as MARRIAGE. Sorry, but I don't find anything wrong with that...I wholeheartedly support civil unions for everyone. Please don't redefine a word in the process, though. <br
Early voting was October 23rd, so I've long since made up my mind, and for the record, except for our county judge (Democrat) and governor (Independent), I voted REPUBLICAN. I have no qualms or regrets about it either, and would do it again if I had a chance to rethink it. <br
Dan/Dingaling, I couldn't tell if you were praising Bill Clinton for causing most everything sold here to be produced in a Communist country (China), but I'm ASSUMING you are. Same with praising outsourcing too? Well, how would you like YOUR job to go to someone in Calcutta, India? Bad enough we have such horrible, low-quality foreign-made items lining the shelves at Wal-Mart. What a disgrace. That's fine, you go ahead and enjoy your Chinese-made Hoover Constellation, and I'll go ahead and enjoy my vintage AMERICAN-MADE Constellation 843 (while, thanks to the wonderful efforts of the Clinton administration, the new models aren't being made in North Canton like they should). You like communism so much, hell, just move to China, Cuba or North Korea and see how happy you are! <br
Kevin, don't leave, I respect you for holding your ground. As conservatives, it just shows that we really are part of the minority here, and how blind some people can be. Until the Democratic Party changes some of their Socialist (a TRUE statement that cannot be successfully argued) views, get ready for more Republican rule. When November 7th comes around and you wonder why there is still a Republican majority in office, just look at some of the things that were said here and you'll know <br
I've ranted enough on the subject and have no further comments on this thread, or site. <br
--Austin

 

[Unimatic1140]

Ummmmm, marry this.. <br
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[dalangdon]

Austin, did you read what I wrote? If you did, how could you think that I was praising Clinton? Or Communism? Or outsourcing, for that matter? You're a smart kid, and I expected better from you than half-baked insults. (Besides, I am proud to be a ding-a-ling ;-) <br
For the record, I was being critical of Clinton and the Congress for the trade agreements which have allowed for large scale out-sourcing, and for giving the companies that outsource a tax break. I think that was shameful of them. <br
In all seriousness you, and a few other younger members, have more on the line when it comes to voting than any of us. You may well be asked to serve this country in uniform. Or, if you voluntarilly choose a career in the military, I hope you will serve with honor and integrity, and not just mouth whatever line has been handed down to you. <br
Your generation has more opportunities, and more challenges, than mine ever had to think about. I sincerely hope for the best for all of you.

 

[rickr]

Still blaming Clinton? Too bad and so sad!..He has not been in office for 6 years now. And we were much better off under the democratic administration. Go add it up <br
btw... It was the Bush Sr. administration that came up with N.A.F.T.A. Clinton did send it on through however, so will give you that one <br
Marriage? It is a contract between two people,and has nothing to do with religion. Nothing more, and nothing less. So please stop accusing gay people of trying to "highjack" marriage. It is *religion* and weirdo politics that are trying to "highjack" marriage, and our lives. <br <br <br <br <br <br

 

[oxydolfan1]

As always, the truth is never a "valid point" with these thugs, and the loyalists that love them <br
Would the expression "Don't let the door hit ya, where the Good Lord split ya", be considered manipulative in this case <br
IMHO, I believe the original poster's last regularly scheduled tantrum showed vividly what it's all about....money, money, and MORE MONEY.....it is a personal fixation for them, their own bottom line <br
An important aspect of (successful) military training is a LIBERAL concept....that, as a team, you are only as good as your weakest link. It is up to YOU to help the weakest link, the least among us, as you will, to get up to speed. Your own survival will depend upon it <br
The evilians running this country were careful to censor any images of coffins of the returning dead this time around, for they did not ever want you to reminded of the final, demented horror of the Republicans' "never-ending war" strategy (I believe Barbara Bush, First Lady of Glenlivet and housedresses, asked why she would have wanted to trouble her "beautiful mind" with such unnecessarily intrusive images) <br
And we remember the comments regarding the New Orleans victims, sleeping in a gymnasium <br
They are not reticent about playing tom-tom drums in the background, while referring to an African-American political candidate in an ad <br
They're unrepentant about "ramming their culture down your throat" and yammer on endlessly about "Heather Has Two Mommies" when they really should be explaining why the President-select found "My Pet Goat" infinitely more mesmerizing <br
Or explaining how you very well may find yourself labelled an "enemy combatant"... <br
My question is, if they've showed you what they are, why not believe them?

 

[petek]

Why is it that it's ok to collect socialist Social Security, ok to drive on a socialist funded Interstate freeway system or a socialist Amtrak. I'm sure there are some others but why then does a national health system become dirty socialism. If there is any one only program a federal govt should be involved in it's healthcare and schooling for everyone. How many true conservatives who rail against socialism creeping into the US system systematically tear up their SS checks each month once they've retired or that of their elderly parents and grandparents telling them forget those, we'll pay for all your expenses, we're making a point here. Likely not one.