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So many excellent responces. But. <br
I'm afraid that in my good intentions of opening a line of dialogue with those I felt a certain similarity with, I actually may have caused alienation. <br
This was certainly not the intent. <br
I guess I should have known..
A group of intelligent people who have such a strong interest in such a unique hobby would also each have their strong opinions on important issues such as politics <br
My Aunt recently pointed out to me that although I often have very valid points, the way I sometimes come accross can appear rather heavy handed and that approach, not the subject, can turn people off. Which is funny because I always feared I came accross underspoken. I fear I have done that here.

While I am glad that we all could converse reasonably well here, I don't want to be thought of as a divider or feared that I would be a "trouble maker" going forward in this group. If there is a certain concenses that it would be preferred I not be part of this group, I will respectfully part <br
 
Erik,

If you go - or Kevin, I will, too. A group which can not tolerate people having differing opinions is not one I will be a member off
But that won't happen - with very few exceptions - we are all adults here who understand that each of us is entitled to his or her own opinions
I do find it fascinating to see how little some of us know about history; discouraging when younger members of the group write things which are false but they believe "cause it's so"..
One thing which shines through in this thread. The folks advocating the "republicans'" (as if Barry, Ronny or Richard would even recognize this group as such)position seem to be having a much easier time of it in their lives than the ones advocating a change of course
An interesting perspective for people to take, considering "their" republican party places such emphasis on the Christian religion. Or should I say, the Pauline Christianists...Johannian Christianity seems to have gone out of style in the current batch of republicans...
 
Now, now-----

all this discussion is SO healthy. Argument is a wonderful thing! It is so interesting to read of all the differing opinions and how STRONGLY we each feel about them <br
I am glad we have this forum <br
All of us on the website are "alley cats" but we do share much when it comes to vintage Washers and Dryers <br
Sooooo-if you can't stand the heat in the political kitchen, please don't cut and run! Just enjoy the debate and ignore what you don't like to hear <br
Sometimes I just stop looking on "Super" altogether
After a while I peek back in to see what outrageous stuff we are into next!
 
Yes, these debates are healthy and fun (and frustrating and agravating and enlightening and...). They educate and make you think deeply about your own beliefs while learning about other points of view. Appreciate diversity. (Did I just say that? <br
"Not all of the poor people CHOOSE to be that way and it is the responsibility of any civilized society to help them out.&quot <br
Let society help them out, but not the government by force. I give to charities that I believe in. I don't want the government taking that money from me at gunpoint to give it to whoever has their hand out. Tax money for legitimate government busines, OK, but not for handouts <br
There is opportunity for everyone in this country. And there is heart enough in this country to look after those that "can't" "don't" or "won't". Shoot, I got exactly where I am all by myself. And if this half-baked, low self esteem, kid can do it, anyone can <br
Hmmmmm... I has a post about healthcare, but it seemed to have disappeared. I wonder if I dreamt it.. <br
It's OK to take that social security check because all those people paid into it! Another government program that is not in the Constitution that should be privatized. Just like Amtrak. <br
 
I pay my taxes cheerfully <br
Deliberately, I make it a point to grin widely on April 15th.. <br
Understand that taxes are your dues to pay for living in this country, being a citizen and reaping (whatever) the benefits are of that, and the ability to (hopefully) earn the money you need, as much as you want or are able to earn <br
I've been poor, and to not be poor is better, and I'm grateful that I'm able to support myself and take care of others as well <br
To have lower taxes to pay is generally more an indicator of personal failure and society's failure to provide for the least of us, much more than any real personal gain <br
If you want to question where the money goes and when, that's fine <br
We do not mind paying our fair share <br
We certainly do mind paying the fair share of the Republicans'.
 
There is opportunity for everyone in this country

Oh, Peter. Surely, surely you did not mean that quite the way it came out, did you
Compared to real hell holes like Poland or China, yes, the US is a paradise. For those of us with white skin and the right breeding (ok, that was nasty, sorry: social background) it is, indeed, a land of unlimited opportunity
But what about the folks working for Maytag who all lost their jobs at the same time - thousands in one small place. What sort of opportunity do they have? And what sort of loss to the domestic economy do their jobs represent? Surely it is better for the nation's economic health to provide them with the necessary means to retrain, rebuild and become productive workers and consumers again? Isn't it better to provide incentives to companies to move into that area and hire these people than to just shrug your shoulders and say - well, that's capitalism, the Chinese can do it better. At the rate your country is exporting jobs, there will soon be very few consumers left to drive your economy. An economy which is, I think here we agree, consumer driven
I agree with you that that government governs best which governs least. At the same time - the US-American society is disintegrating in many places. The crime rate overall, the poverty, the poor health care/education/nutrition of nearly one-quarter of the population of your beautiful, strong country. Your capitalistic society is based on the assumption of a strong, productive middle class. Unless you rethink your approach, I fear you will very soon lose exactly that class which consumes and keeps your economy going
 
"It's OK to take that social security check because all those people paid into it! Another government program that is not in the Constitution that should be privatized. Just like Amtrak.&quot <br
Social Security has been a wonderful thing for both generations of older people (who we supported by putting in county "poor houses" in earlier times) and for families where the breadwinner was suddenly taken out of the equation. It kept them from being a burden on society. <br
I obviously have a bias toward Amtrak, but it exists because there was a demand for it, but it was a money losing proposition. It can't make a profit - even when it was in the hands of the private railroads. But yet for the money it costs in subsidies, it creates much more economic activity - that's been proven time and again. Richard Nixon was very wise in creating it. <br
And by your logic, we'd better get rid of the interstate highway system, the air traffic control system, the Food & Drug Administration, the USDA, etc, etc, etc. <br
It's a lot easier to be reactionary when you don't know your history.
 
Funny how that line about I support the charities I believe in, reminds me of Ebeneezer Scrouge excusing himself from giving to charity that makes a provision for the poor at Christmas. Are there no Prisons? The work houses and the tread mill, are they still in operation? Those are the institutions I support <br
Yes, but many would rather die that go there <br
Then they should do it and decrease the surplus population <br
Remember Jacob Marly's message about forging his chains in life by living only for himself. None of us does it all by himself or herself. We did not build the hospital in which we were born. We, most likely, will not dig the grave in which we are buried. We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us and are obliged to help others in exchange for the help we receive <br
A nation is judged by how well the very poor and the very old are cared for. We are not winning any ribbons, but Social Security and Medicare are blessings. If you do not believe me, wait until you are caring for an elderly parent <br
People against taxes always refer to, "your money." Why don't they ever talk about your benefits. And when they talk about giving money away to the less fortunate, why do they not also talk about the money given to corporate welfare? I would be more than willing for those who do not want to pay taxes to tell the government which services they will be glad to do without. If you will promise never to drive again, we won't make you pay for road building or maintenance or those that keep the roads safe. Of course, you realize that also means that you cannot take delivery of any goods transported by truck or van. If you promise not to fly, you will not have to pay taxes that go to heavily subsidizing the airlines & companies that make airplanes or paying for the air traffic controlers. Of course, you won't receive any more mail sent by air, either. If you promise not to use a boat, you will not have to pay the amount of your taxes that go toward protecting the coastlines, rescuing mariners and maintaining navigational charts . On the other hand, you won't be able to receive anything by boat or eat seafood again. If you feel like you do not benefit from food inspection, what little we have, you will not have to share the cost, but if you get sick, don't expect the government to investigate the food you ate. Likewise, if you don't feel that you benefit from financial protections to business & banking by the various government agencies, you can be on your own, but you cannot complain to the people like bank regulators or the securities and exchange people if a bank swallows your money or you are defrauded by some business scheme. If you promise not to take any more vaccines, you won't have to pay the part of your taxes for the public health service, the Centers for Disease Prevention and Control, the researchers that receive government money to study diseases & the FDA. You are welcome to think of other services that do not benefit you <br
Finally, if you do not feel that the extreme right would like to get rid of all of the people who do not fit their mold, remember that in the past few weeks, one of the spokesmen for these organizations called for a purge of all homosexuals who work for the legislative branch and other Republicans were upset that those homosexuals actually had connections to the Republican Party. And, do not think it has not happened before. In the early Fifties, all kinds of government employees were let go for violation of morals clauses. More than 100 gay employees were separated from the Library of Congress, many of them in one day during one such spasm of Senator Joseph McCarthy's search for un-American activities. Homosexuals were far more interesting to the population than Communists, and far more despised. If the religious right had their way, I fear that Gay and Lesbian people would be very unwelcome here, to the point where, as Robert said a while back, Canada could look very good because their electrical system would operate our vintage appliances. The Jews who fought in Germany's armed forces or converted to Christianity, or supported Hitler because of the stability he promised to bring to Germany, never thought that they would become victims of his plans, his Final Solution, any more than some Republican homosexuals feel endangered today by the people whose approval they so desire. You cannot will yourself to be blind to any plans that might include you. You need to learn from history and have alternate plans set up and thought through. You won't be able to depend on people you thought were friends, even though they are heterosexual and conservative. Those that do not actively hate us, feel that we and our situation are none of their business; you read it in earlier posts. Would that look like a back turned in time of trouble, a phone that is always on voice-mail, but no calls returned, emails without reply? Most of the Jews who survived the Holocaust got out while the getting was good, before borders were closed, before everything they owned was seized. They listened to the rhetoric of the party in charge, they realized even before the signs went up forbidding Jews to sit on park benches, swim in public pools, ride the buses or enter non-Jewish-owned stores. After Jewish property was destroyed, looted and burned on Kristallnacht, The Night of Broken Glass, November 9 & 10, 1938, the insurance companies asked the people running the country how they going to do to cover the claims for losses. The answer was that Jews were not German citizens, therefore it was not legal for them to own property in Germany, so no insurance claims had to be honored. The people of Europe had been fed a steady diet of hatred towards Jews, just as Americans hear appeals for the Defense of Marriage Amendments, but that is only the foundation upon which more hate-inspired actions can be built. Pretty soon the majority of good, religious people has heard so many dehumanizing judgements against a minority; heard that they want to take over the wealth of the world, advance the Homosexual Agenda, recruit your children to the "homosexual lifestyle" or destroy marriage as we know it, that they allow actions to be taken without even thinking about wrong and right. This is why Gay & Lesbian people always need to be on the alert, be tuned in no matter how unpleasant the rhetoric and know what those who foment hate are planning and pushing, especially when they control all branches of the government.
 
Tom,

I truly wish you were paranoid and not 100% right
Excellent analysis and comparison
My own experience in my family this past year or so has shown it: As long as I was taking care of the emergency, I was welcomed. The moment my christianist brother and his family realized I would be returning permanently, the persecution started right back up where it stopped in the 1990s. When the treats of physical harm failed to run me off, they went for the subtile approach. My folks are too heaviley medicated to pick up the nuances...so now they have been brainwashed into thinking I am doing this, that and the other against their will..
I truly wish the folks who are so adamantly pro-republican in our forae would take the time to really look at what "their" party is doing, saying and advocating. Today. If all their talk about being "true" conservatives and constitution-based Americans is for real, they will be surprised. Unpleasantly.
 
Oh, Oh, what did I stumble upon!....

But I know a man who has a solution, and he is liberal and has many good ideas and the only man running for political office I have ever supported - Dennis Kucinich! Here is his program for "Enhanced Medicare For All&quot <br
I just can't help it, I am a Kucitizen and soooo proud of it!

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/universalhealth.php
 
I think he's amazing too <br
Can you imagine a "Department of Peace"??? <br <br
(receives freezing "Twin Tub" of water smack dab in the face, and wipes with freshly laundered towel.. <br <br
I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell someone like that could be elected in the United States... <br <br
Sigh....
 
Progressive Liberal here, just in case someone might be wondering.. And I didn't even have to take the test. <:
 
"Why are people making minimum wage supporting a family? Minimum wage jobs are intended for part time workers or people starting out, as they are entry level low skilled jobs. There is nothing in this country that stops you from getting skills you need to move up the ranks. I haven't had a minimum wage job since I was 16. By 17 when in High School, I was rebuilding engines at a service station and making great money, at skills I learned in High School. &quot <br
Always late to the game, I am, but.. <br
I work in a vo-tech school district and I might point out that just what you did here is getting harder and harder for the average kid. I see a lot of negative attitudes growing twoards work like mechanic work, which is considered by a lot of parents to be far too low brow for their children. These days, every kid is brilliant and is going to become a high powered lawyer, a brain surgeon or an engineer. It seems like it gets harder for parents to be happy with a kid who finds joy in working with his hands. (Like me! <br
Parents force the schools to drop auto shop and it gets replaced with standard and low-achieving classes. All of a sudden, no citizens are arriving at those low wage positions with the skills they need to advance. Now, add cheap immigrant labor to the pool and you are going to have an even harder time getting anyplace. Mess up and have a kid before you are ready and now you are sliding even further from breaking even <br
I've also heard lately that the low end of the pay scale is actually a lot farther from the middle than it used to be due to inflation. Low wage jobs have not kept up, putting the entry level worker at another disadvantage. Maybe 30, 40, 50 years ago that great money you were making at the auto shop was actually great money, and maybe now that level of pay is just not obtainable at the same skill level. (if i wasn't ready for bed I would do a little more reasearch and get some hard numbers here, and i apologise if i've pegged you a bit older than you are, Kevin, I didn't see your birthday in your profie) <br
But what it comes down to for me, with politics, is that I think the only thing we can do at this point is shake that damned tree every election day and hope some of the rotten apples fall out. Don't let any party become to complacent, keep your wits about you, and put a stop to erosion of the dream with common sense and decency. <br
Stay around here, all of ya, and ride out the storm. Vote with your head, and let the chips fall where they might, and maybe we'll get some new politicos who don't have their heads up their arses for a while who can get this country back on track and healing <br
Oh, and apparently, according to the test, I'm a liberal.
 
Finally, somebody agrees with me about Dennis! I thought I was all alone in being a Kucitizen. And yes, most people I talked to about him said he just would not stand a chance of being elected but if it were possible I would have voted for him. I did vote, with the rest of my family, for (hold the nose) Kerry, who should be a Shakesperean actor rather than a politician (didn't he sound like Dr. Smith on "Lost In Space"?) <br
As for a Department of Peace, I agree it doesn't stand a chance but I believe our present Department of State could do a lot more with international relations to help prevent wars than they presently do <br
As for careers, I wanted to work on heating systems and plumbing when I was young but Dad would not hear of it. He didn't want the "swearing/bar/drinking/I have another kid on the way" lifestyle of the blue collar world. I majored in Business in college, and had the nastiest classes ever. I was a bad time in my life. <br
Oh, and about the Department of Peace

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/departmentpeace.php
 
Vocational training

I have a good friend who is an auto shop teacher in the Federal Way school district (Federal Way is a working-class suburb between Tacoma and Seattle) and a Ford authorized mechanic for one of the dealerships on the side. He can give you quite an earful about how the vocations aren't being respected by the school districts anymore, because of all the standardized testing, and budget cuts. <br
My Grandfather started out as an apprentice for Nebraska Public Power, then worked his way up to full fledge journeyman electrician. He made enough money to support a family of twelve. Things got easier and the pay got better when he went over to OPPD and became a member of the the IBEW.
 
It is very difficult to find any young people who are interested in becoming appliance techs. A technical school in Maryland still has the course and only has about 5 students graduate each year. The graduates are very young and the school is far from Beltsville. Even though John has had them work with him for like their practical experience period, they are still living at home and it's too far to travel each day for a full time job. Some decide that they don't want to work with appliances after all. It's no wonder we found a brand new GE washer scrapped out in a product exchange when all that is wrong is that the pump protector chamber is full of lint. The machine can be written off as a loss and it's probably cheaper than paying a tech to spend a lot of time looking for a problem on a new piece of equipment, especially if the tech has not had hands on training on it.
 
Just as things were getting back to appliance repair ...

Great article in the paper today about how PA senator Rick Santorum's campaign is in big trouble and he's been consistently trailing his Democrat challenger by double digits. Finally the people of PA are waking up to the fact that they've had an extremist hypocrite in the upper house. Here's hoping 11/7 marks a new beginning for sanity and compassion in congress if not the White House and cabinet <br
RE: making a living on appliance repair, I probably would have taken that route and enjoyed getting my fingers dirty along with getting the satisfaction of keeping a good machine running for an owner who loves it, but doubt I would have been able to buy a house or drive a decent car if I had made that choice. Auto mechanic would be the same deal for me. I'd end up losing money taking the time to do things right fixing a car most mechanics would tell you wasn't worth fixing. Best that these fields remain nothing more than interests and hobbies for a guy like me.
 
Oh, I know all about Rick!

I live in the school district he took money away from (he charged them the cost of his "Cyber Home Schooling") and he doesn't even live here! We see his signs and commercials all the time - The commercials are rather mean. Unfortunately, Bob Casey, in his commercials, doesn't look into the camera, isn't that considered a no no <br
Like I said, I was interested in a vocational career when I was young but my father would not hear of it. Now, 12 years later, when my younger brother wanted to be an auto mechanic, he let him go to the vocational school for that field. He did go on to college and is now an electrical engineer. But someone who wants to work with their hands can be thought of as not "college material" or "go to the bar all the time". Maybe that's one thing wrong with America (oh, better duck and run!).
 
see how your elected representatives voted on VETS

Find out if your representative is actually a supporter of our Valued Military men and women. <br
This site is excellent and Non-partisan. go to www.IAVAaction.org and put in your zip code to find out how your representatives actually voted the way they talk. The site gives a grade based on performance. There are even links to contact your representative if you are please, or not <br
(As heard about it on Al Frankens show today. <br
 
I was definitely not college material

I went to college because I had to. I had no idea what I wanted to do with myself, but my dad was afraid I'd end up working in the Union Pacific yards, like he did before he went to WWII. <br
Dad would have ended up back down in the yards if it weren't for the GI Bill, which paid for him to go to law school. My folks couldn't have afforded a house without that program, either. <br
While my Dad was in the war, his father died and the small family grocery store folded because he wasn't there to run it, and grandma was taking care of him. Grandma and my uncle would have starved if it hadn't been for Social Security. <br
That's what drives my mother crazy: When people her age say that they "never needed handouts". Just about everybody was on some sort of assisstance, and a lot of those people who say they never took handouts owed my grandparent's money on their accounts. Grandma was too soft-hearted to try much hard core collections, but Dad had kept the book of charge accounts, and Mom still has it. She knows just how poor and needy those people were - and which ones never paid their balance. <br
People forgot how desparate those times were, and why the social safety net is important.
 
Santorum's one of those delightful creatures that categorizes my personal choice of sex partners with bestiality <br
(There's a tempting one-liner in there somewhere, but I digress. <br
This is the "normalization of deviancy" advocate <br
All you need to know is when Santorum's baby was born stillborn, he made his wife bring the poor thing's body home and made his kids hold it, so they would know their sibling <br
God help Pennsylvania if its good citizens don't show this freak the door.
 
OK this is too much fun not to share...

I've heard rumors for quite a while that Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman is gay. I think it's important to let every Republican voter know this little fact, after all we like our voting population to be educated on the facts and issues <br
The link below is to a new parody ad mocking the the RNC's now-infamous "call me" ad. That spot, which the RNC eventually pulled this month, showed a scantily clad white actress saying she met Ford at "the Playboy party." It ended with her asking the congressman to call her. Many analysts believe it was produced to play on racist fears of interracial relationships. If you haven't seen that nasty republican attack ad you can see it <a href= target=_blank>HERE</a <br
Now check out the new little ad that will hopefully get some press this next week. It's fabulous...

 
Oxydolfan, I don't know of anyone who would vote for Rick but someone must because he gets elected, although I will not vote for him and neither will my family. People who own businesses seem to like him for some reason, maybe he is pro-business? <br
Someone I know told me a theory about Rick that is really "out there" and I will risk and tell it here: Rick is actually gay and to have all his children he and his wife have to do procedures like Michael Jackson does to have kids! I don't believe that but these days, I guess anything is possible! Nep
 
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