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danemodsandy

danemodsandy

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No, not that kind! :P

What I've fantasized about more than once is creating a company that built major appliances to yesteryear's standards of engineering excellence and physical quality. Styling would be conservative, yet current, but the appliances would be built like tanks. There would be thick, heavy porcelain finishes on ranges, mechanical timers on everything, cast-iron wash arms on dishwashers, etc. Engineers would be encouraged- in fact, required- to do things the best way, not the cheapest way.

Now, this raises some questions: What do members here think about the chances of such a brand in the marketplace? Overbuilt appliances would have to cost more than ordinary ones with the same features, so do you think that consumers would be willing to pay extra to get things that would last? And would they do it in sufficient numbers to support a smaller appliance manufacturer, or would it just be applianceheads like us?

I'd be interested in hearing opinions on this!
 
Awesome idea...

Discriminating consumers who value quality would no doubt support this, provided they could afford to, since products of the caliber of which you're speaking cost more to manufacture.
 
I have a feeling that they'd cost A LOT more.

Not only is there the slight increase in the cost of raw materials, there's the HUGE extra cost of custom manufacturing, distribution, service network, and certification by various government groups.

Remember that the things we buy day-by-day are only as cheap as they are because of the fact that they're manufactured in gigantic quantities. Anything that's made on a limited run is disproportionately more expensive.

And remember Beta-vs-VHS. Beta was a lot better, but VHS was slightly cheaper. And there are a lot of similar instances In this country, slightly cheaper wins every time.

You could, of course, approach an existing manufacturer and try to introduce an upscale line of better-built machines. I'm sure they'd smile politely, but they're not interested. After all, they make money by selling people the newest and latest every few years. Being the best might be a nice feeling, but it's selling new equipment that brings up the bottom line. You've got to be good enough that you don't turn people away from your product, but if you made a machine that actually lasted forever, you'd only sell one to each customer. Not good business.

-kevin
 
selectomatic...

Precisely. Manufactures know that the way to REALLY MAKE MONEY is by getting their products into as many homes and hands as possible. And the way you ultimately do that is by making your prices appealing to the MASSES not an elite few.
 
Let Me Re-Phrase The Question!

Evidently, I wasn't clear in my initial post.

By creating the kind of appliance company I talked about, I was not talking about becoming a major appliance company to rival Whirlpool or GE. Far from it. What I meant was, I wanted to create a company supplying a niche product for consumers who are sick and tired of replacing cheaply made, price-conscious appliances.

Now- the question becomes, "Do you think that there are enough people out there to support a niche appliance manufacturer specialising in genuinely durable appliances?"

It seems to me that there are plenty of people out there willing to throw Big Bucks at shoddily-made appliances with lots of silly bells and whistles. Are there a few who'd be willing to similar prices for lasting quality?
 
Probably too few

It's a great idea, however.

I would love a NEW refrigerator with a easily cleaned porcelain liner, for example, but I doubt if there would be enough others to make it even remotely feasible.

Contracting for say, a thicker guague of steel, finding a facility, a crew, a dealer network.....

It is a lovely idea, however.......

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not unsympathetic to your pl

I guess what I meant was that I don't believe that there are enough customers who would A) have enough money, and B) care enough to actually pay attention to such matters.

Are there a few who'd be willing to pay (not similar, but much higher) prices for lasting quality? Yes. A few.

I just don't think that there are enough to make it a going proposition.

I truly do appreciate quality, and I hate to see the crap that's being (successfully) foisted on the consumer these days. I'm just not optomistic that there's any way to change either the industry or the consumer.

If you were to market such a thing, and if I could afford your product, I'd certainly be a potential customer.

-kevin
 
I know what your asking. And I respect that. But as others have said better than I could, the market won't support another company.

I think what you could do though, is maybe be more specific and manufacture PARTS for existing appliances that are better than the frequently breaking parts on appliances that are already made. This way you wouldn't be a threat to existing manufacturers, you could concentrate on listening to what individuals want and make just that part.
Auto makers are few, but parts dealers and manufacturers are plenty. There are alot of ways of upgrading or changing a car with various parts. I think it would require less capial to start and less inventory and would take advantage of the internet for advertising. I don't think you would have many problems advertising along side manufacturers at retailers either, because your making them look better.

People are minding more now about throwing money down the drain on cars, which are just appliances, so just imagine how much less they want to spend on an home appliance.
"They should be used and not seen" is more the attitude. Literally, here today, gone tomorrow. And as long as they are recycled, why not? who wants to deliberately buy a used appliance. A nice new one is preferred. Even amongst us. Which would you rather find? A new or used 1965 _______ (fill in the blank). Those that have done restorations here know how much work it takes to bring back an old appliance. For the average smo-joe, lazy American, blah.

You could manufacture appliances that would be practical but not made yet.
I want to see the collapsible refrigerator with removable freon section. What is a refrigerator. A bunch of flat pieces. so why not sell it in pieces(like a book shelf) and the customer can easily put it together, no tools necessary. It would save on freight and delivery and if the compressor goes simply remove the back panel and replace, no freon to be exposed in "the field".

I have been looking for a 2 burner gas cook top. As i am getting rid of my 30" seldom used gas stove. The most I ever use is 2 burners. More frequently I use the oven. I have only found 2 manufacturers and they are abroad. These are so much more compact than a standard stove. about the size of 2 medium thick telephone books end to end. Don't even require a special cabinet. Add a nice convection /toaster oven and I am set. And more practical and fuel efficient.

Good luck with your new venture. :o)
 
Just buy and restore

There are already more vintage appliances out there than buyers. Buy a couple of everything you like and keep them running.

Keep in mind that a large amount of modern consumers are more fickle about styles and features than the ladies of the past. Therefore, they might not be content to have the long lasting appliance around.

I guess I expect too little. It's not hard to defrost or make ice. Water comes from a faucet, not a fridge or a bottle.

Travis
 
selectomatic:

Just want to play Devil's Advocate here, I'm not arguing with you, okay? :-)

We live in an age where there are plenty- and I mean plenty- of people willing to plunk down $2000 for a washer from some company that has a fairly short track record in the United States. Lots of people own fancy stainless-front refrigerators with ice and water in the door that cost thousands of dollars (Sub-Zero, fr'instance). And the money you can spend on a so-called "commercial" range is phenomenal. People are, therefore, willing to throw quite a lot of money at appliances. In fact, even in mass-market stores, BOL appliances don't attract any but the most desperate consumers, so far as I'm able to tell.

So, given that there is plenty of money being spent on appliances out there, why shouldn't some people be very happy to get something actually WORTH a high price?
 
I'm by no means upset, just pessimistic.

Well, I work part-time in a high(ish) end video and stereo store. We do custom install, and sell good quality equipment. I know how few customers we have, and how hard it is to sell quality equipment. And we're by no means a truly high-priced store. Certainly there are some customers, but it's still a hard sell. People with money either don't care much, or they want to discuss each and every detail to death.

I'm also thinking that the cost of setting up and going into production and distribution is much higher than either of us imagine.

BTW, Sub-Zero isn't necessarily the best example. Coming from Madison (Sub-Zero's home town), I might be more familiar with them than many people, but they have been around for over 60 years.

-kevin
 
I hope I'm not preachy

Yeah, but... the definition of
VALUE or WORTH
is ambiguous.

Some people, myself included at times would rather have a new BOL ____, than have a top of the line ____, that may not be functioning or is inefficient,

because

it is new,
and it works,
and it is efficient
and I can go to the store and get it NOW,
or because ____ _____ _____. choose your reason.
The person selling it was HOT !! whatever.

It all matters in the way that a person decides what these mean.

Where did all the "VALUABLE" I-18s go, and the Electrolux canisters? and the Maytags from the 70s and 60s that were tol back then. and the IBM computers? and the kitchenaid dishwashers built to last out of porcelin and steel?
Obviously, they weren't "VALUED" anymore for some reason. Not necessarily because they didn't work.

I've been there,
behind the appliance store, in the wharehouse looking at what you and most people in this room would consider as "VALUABLE" or "QUALITY" appliances where the old ones sit and collect dust waiting for the scrap metal truck to pick up, while cheap sheet metal sits in the front window advertised on sale at $649 "this week only". And you shake your head.

As much as I dislike Stainless steel appliances. Meaning appliances that have stainless steel needlessly on the outside, where it shouldn't be. There are fools willing to spend money on this because they have been fooled into thinking that side by side is higher quality than the very same model that has the standard painted front. So they pay $600 more for ugly. 5 years from now they will be asking "what were we thinking?"
 
Puzzling, Isn't It?

I admit to being mystified by most people's buying priorities nowadays. The major example, to my way of thinking, is stainless-fronted refrigerators. As anyone who has one in a houseful of kids knows, the only thing stainless does for the exterior of a reefer is to increase maintenance requirements. What's odd about that is that it doesn't seem to occur to anyone that the same stainless would make a huge contribution to hygiene and durability if it was used INSIDE the unit, for a liner and shelving.

I guess it's a matter of where your priorities are.
 
In continuation of the thought of the person spending $600 more for the same refrigerator that has a stainless steel front....

But,
If that person Enjoyed spending that $600 extra
and feel that they actually got more. Even though it didn't really cost anything more to make.
Than "the quality" was attained.

Same for someone who buys an appliance and never connects it. If simply HAVING the appliance makes a person feel better about themselves or provides some other benefit that the appliance was not intended to provide, than the appliance has "value"

In that realm, the ACTUAL standards and substances to which an appliance is made to, is realatively meaningless.

In todays world, more than ever, though it has no doubt always been this way. That's the way it is.

...OK class turn in your essays. and read chapter 18 for Tuesday.
 
I grew up in the '70s,

By the time the '80s rolled around, people realized that shiny, painted surfaces showed too many fingerprints, and manufacturers started making crinkle-finish refrigerators so that fingerprints would disappear.

That was too good an idea, I guess. Now people want "stainless steel," which looks awful most of the time. Oh well, my 1988 Amana still works, and it still hides the fingerprints as well as ever.

As I say, I do appreciate high-quality, long-lasting equipment.

-kevin
 
Regarding posts about building something that lasts and the compromised repeat business this would present, I have a situation of my own where I discovered a successful company that does exactly that.

My plastic hose reel broke recently. I had been house-sitting and had the opportunity to use an unusual looking hose reel that I had never seen before. The house has a huge yard and 150' of hose on this reel. I could not believe how easily that hose was reeled in using this heavy duty device. So I went looking on line and found what I wanted, a solid metal "Rapid Reel" (they have a website) with a price tag of probably 4 times more than your average higher end plastic type (you can find them cheaper than what they go for on the manufacturer's site). I had no qualms in paying for something that would work well, and if you read up about the company you'll see that the guy behind it saw a need and designed and built a product that would fill that need. I doubt I'll ever have to replace my hose reel, and every time I use it I feel a sense of satisfaction and that my money was well spent. I would recommend this product to anyone, which helps to provide more customers for this company. I'm sure I'm not the only person who became tired of wrestling with and replacing inferior plastic reels that would tip over, that wouldn't wind or unwind properly, and that ultimately had a key component break and render the whole thing useless. I'm a satisfied "Rapid Reel" customer and will recommend this product to anyone willing to spend the money for a well thought out and durable design.

Seems to me that you'd be providing this same type of product, Sandy, and while your client base would be small and specialized, there would be a demand. Maybe not enough to quit your day job, but with the right marketing you might be able to turn a profit at some point.
 
Ralph:

Well, it's all a daydream, so I'm still hammering away at my day job!

Rapid Reel looks like a terrific product, and it's the kind of product design I enjoy seeing and owning. Someone was obviously dissatisfied with existing products, and set out to design something that overcame all the defects he found in them. Just using metal instead of plastic was a huge step in the right direction, then he spec'ed aluminium for its rustproof qualities, then made sure there was a heavy bearing at the axle, etc. Nice job. The only thing I didn't care for was the powder-coat finish. Powder-coat is extremely durable and very high-quality, but it has a slick, Teflon-like, plastic-y look and feel, very 21st-century. I prefer the look and feel of paint, for all its drawbacks; I am fast approaching the age where I feel entitled to become an old fogey, LOL.
 
"Do you think that there are enough people out there to support a niche appliance manufacturer specialising in genuinely durable appliances?"

Do you consider Speed Queen to be an example of a genuinely durable washer, or do you have something with even more of what I call "clunk", or the sound of a well-fitted, solid lid, door, housing, etc., with a more retro image?

I've been thinking about how difficult it is to locate a Speed Queen dealer in my area, and the fact that I don't know a single person who owns one of the newer models.

I remember the Dualit toaster fiasco of a few years ago, where very upscale and seemingly solid, well-constructed toasters that sold at a premium at better kitchen stores inexplicably began catching fire, in mass numbers, and the comments I remember hearing about the merits of paying more for better versus just settling for the best the mass market happens to offer.

And I just HAPPENED to pass through Sears' appliance department today :), and was shocked beyond belief when I looked at Kenmore's latest top-loader offerings. The lids seemed like tin, a lot of the plastic around the drum seemed much thinner, and I really imagine the agitator would actually crack after two or three years of vigorous daily cycles in a large family's house.

In contrast, I checked out the new Kenmore bagless upright vacuums, and they seemed to have improved substantially in quality, fit, finish, and design, from what they offered last year.

Could it be that the consumer will have to start by demanding better products from the smallest on up, which is counter-intuitive to what is believed, which is that small appliances are disposable, but large ones are a misery to replace?

Every time you have to go out to replace something small with something cheap, it STILL requires going out to select and buy it, and it's still another thing on the honey-do list.

With the internet and "new media" you could certainly market a superior product to a growing market, but how would you distribute it? What about parts and service for the rare occasions when something does break? How to fight the backlash against "elitist" products at a time when conformity to the mean is subtly encouraged?

Interesting post, sandy. I hope you find your answer.
 
Quality/Duribilty vs: Price

Price will always win with consumers, in our have it now, McDonalds, WalMart way of thinking in the USA. I have friends who cannot understand why they are being laid off from Chrysler and why Chrysler is outsourcing parts to foriegn companies and why people are buying Chinese built cars that are costing them their jobs, and at the same time, they buy a Hier air conditoner at Wal-Mart for 91 dollars,and not a Carrier central air or window air conditoner for much more money made in the USA and in the same city that they are losing their jobs in. Niche quality is a good thing, but the average American goes to price first. We need to change that. We are creating an economy of inpatient and fast money driving the decisions of consumers and the day traders on our stock markets. Cheap, fast, impatient money is driving our stock market and our economy. We need to slow down and have quality products and quality investments. That is not deflation, that is common sense.
 
i think people wouldn't care about the cost......people pay lots of money for things that are junk just BECAUSE they are expensive and they think they are getting quality because of price........in your scenario it would be true, they WOULD get quality
 
It would largely be a niche market. Research on interest in such products would be hugely inaccurate. What people may say on a survey isn't at all what they may do at the point of purchase.

An elderly friend (83 years old) of my grandmother had to buy a new washer a few days ago. She bought the cheapest ($299) toploader (Roper) she could find at the local furniture store.

RJ is shopping for a new fridge. I had forgotten about Whirlpool cutting back on warranty coverage, they no longer cover refrigerator sealed systems for 5 years. KitchenAid, however, extends parts-only coverage to 10 years. He's swayed toward that direction, but is waffling on whether warranty justifies KA's price premium over a "budget model" Whirly.

A few years ago when granny's Fedders window unit died, I opted for a "premium" Friedrich over going to Wal-Mart or Home Depot.

So .... it depends. I think a large number of people who buy expensive appliances (for upscale homes) don't do it because of true quality, but for perceived quality and "label prestige" for potential resale value. Seems like many people relocate frequently nowadays (and leave the appliances behind) so they'd never get the benefit of longevity from actual use of the items.
 
price vs quality

I feel most consumers tend to go for price over quality as they only want to or indeed have a certain amount of money to spend.
I also think that perhaps sometimes higher priced quality is not always as good as it claims to be and so cheaper can actually be better, I use myself as an example 3 years ago I decided that I would replace my 13 year old Westinghouse fridge freezer with a new side-by-side model, after shopping around and getting advice from different dealers I decided on a 589 litre G.E.with ice and water, it cost me a great deal of money ($3000.00 dollars Aus.)and while I could have got a Samsung or L.G. for much less cost(about $1800.00 dollars Aus)much of the advice I received was that these would not last as long as G.E. or a similar U.S. brand as they specialise in this type of fridge and so far it has been proven right.
Now for cheaper being better most people here wold remember my first couple of posts when I first joined this club about my Bosch front loader which basically disintegrated after just 3 years of standard use, this machine cost me $1000.00 Aus dollars and so a supposed quality brand ended up being a waste of money, so I got the Haier twin tub 18 months ago for $400.00 dollars and it works like a dream and this is a supposed cheap and nasty Chinese product.
However the bane of my life is electric kettles again I found the cheaper was better than the expensive name brands i.e. Sunbeam,Kambrook,Breville etc only seem to last 6-9 months and cost roughly about $40-50 dollars each now I got a cheap $15 kettle from the local Coles supermarkert and it has lasted about 15 months.
A really interesting thread thanks for it.
Cheers.
Steve.
P.S.I gave the old Westinghouse fridge to my elderly neighbours who were struggling along with just a small bar fridge and they tell me the fridge was a godsend and is still going strong.
 
The Speed Queen washers seem to be the sort of machine you are describing. Here in AU they are badged as Kleenmaid and sell for huge prices. Kleenmaid sell on perceived quality - no doubt their SQ-sourced TLs are built like tanks, but they also sell Gorenje-sourced FLs at really premium prices, yet they are a basic machine manufactured in Slovenia, not a premium product at all.
I know several people with Kleenmaid TL washers, they all bought them because they were fed up with cheap machines that didn't last and were prepared to pay for something more durable.

Trouble with starting your own company for such a machine is, your buyers are going to be fairly conservative people looking for "old fashioned" tough products, they are not likely to be the type to take a risk on a brand they have never heard of before and may not be around in 10 years when spare parts are required.

There are already very solidly built appliances around, such as Miele and Speed Queen. They also have the advantage of well known brand names.

chris
 
Kleenmaid prices

Hi Chris,
Yes I agree with you about Kleenmaid expensive washers but quite solidly built as you say, I must say I did not know about their front loaders, that is surprising considering the prices, however as you correctly point out they do sell on perceived quality.
I must be honest though that is where I bought my G.E. fridge as they seem to be the sole distributor for G.E. fridges here in Oz, so I guess I am being a bit hypocritical, however this was the fridge I wanted so that was it.
I must say though I do feel they charge extortionate prices for their vacuum cleaners somewhere between $400-$600 for their barrel cleaner and I think it is only 1500 watts, you can most certainly do better than that for a vacuum I feel.
Cheers.
Steve.
 
I read: What I've fantasized about more than once is creating a company that built major appliances to yesteryear's standards of engineering excellence and physical quality. Styling would be conservative, yet current, but the appliances would be built like tanks. (snip) Engineers would be encouraged- in fact, required- to do things the best way, not the cheapest way.

Is this not, to a large extent, what Miele does quite well already? It's certainly a "niche" brand.

I'm hoping that my dishwasher and vacuum cleaner last the predicted 15-20 years (with appropriate care), and I'm seriously considering replacing my perfectly good 5 year old Frigidaire FL with a Miele when it dies.
 
drhardee:

"Is this not, to a large extent, what Miele does quite well already? It's certainly a "niche" brand."

I'm not familiar with Miele's majors, but I have owned a White Star vacuum, very briefly. I found it to be of no better overall quality than a Panasonic vacuum, at a ridiculously exalted price (I'm assured by some German buddies that they certainly don't go for such Big Bucks over there).

I'd have to know more about Miele's major appliances before I could say anything about them, but that White Star was not a good introduction to the brand.
 
While one loves and also has toyed with the idea of an appliance manufacturer brining back the quality, design and such of vintage appliances, it just won't work in today's market. Sad, very sad but true.

First of all all that heavy steel, porcelian on steel, cast iron and so forth costs dear today; as does labour which would drive up the cost. On the consumer side, the market for such appliances is fast dying out as the Baby Boomers (the last generation to actually have known such appliances from their youth), dies away. Younger people are so taken with the throw away consumer culture that they would never pay in today's money what it would cost for such an appliance.

The last point is probably the biggest fly in the ointment. Adjusted for inflation, a TOL Maytag or GE washer that sold for say $300 or so during the 1950's or 1960's would cost near $1000 today if not more.

Post WWII, there was tons of factory capacity sitting around with nothing to do now that war contracts/supply was over, so they switched production to appliances, which came at a the right time with the "Baby Boom", "GI Bill", and the en masse move to those new homes in the surburbs. Once that need was met, appliance makers had to take a page or two from the car world, and bring out new models yearly or so and hope Mrs.American Housewife would trade up; but most rarely did. By the late 1960's you saw many of the great appliance names sold off or shut down as their parent companies saw the writing on the wall; durable white goods were starting to become consumer items at worst, or at best they were built so well consumers saw no need to replace a perfectly working appliance. Proof of this can be found in the hundreds if not thousands of vintage major appliances either chucked to the curb, or being sold that are in perfect working condition, or require minor repairs. Persons doing the chucking simply want something "new".

Also the consumer's mindset and corporate attitude towards quality has changed. Years ago, if a wife was lucky enough to get Mr. Average Joe American Husband to part with with his hard earned cash for a washing machine or other major appliance,it better work or he would be on the phone to the local appliance store where he purchased the item giving hell. The local store not wishing to get a bad reputation in the area, did the right thing. Well by and large small appliance stores are gone, replaced by Lowes, Home Depot and the like, all of which pretty much seem to care less what you think about them.
 

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