R-12 in Fridges

[firedome]

anyone know about how long R-12 was used in domestic refrigerators? We have a case of the stuff bought in the '80s when it was announced it was going to be phased out. Is it possible to recharge from the small cans? We have fittings for recharging a car system.

 

[danemodsandy]

Um....

....You do know the stuff is worth quite a bit of money nowadays, right?

Unless you really, really need it for a project, you might think of selling it and enjoying your windfall.

 

[kb0nes]

About 60 years

Time frame would be early 30's to mid-90's

I'd think its not all that valuable for home refrigeration since household sealed systems seldom leak. Also most service techs doing sealed system work are likely reclaiming the R-12 for reuse.

The big aftermarket use was for topping off auto AC systems. The value of those small cans of R-12 is likely as high as it will ever be, eventually the demand will fall off and so will the value. R-12 use in cars ended by 1993-94 so except for collector cars demand is starting to wane already.

 

[firedome]

Yes we do know...

since we restore antique cars. Not too bad a buy at 88 cents/can at K-Mart back in '87 when they were trying to get rid of it - kinda like light bulbs now - we've stocked up on those too! But we've no old cars left newer than 1958, the next project being a 1916 Model T Speedster - a bit of a challenge to A/C a motor, 2 seats and frame!

 

[firedome]

Actually we had 2 cases

but down to about a case plus - around 15 cans - now. The 70 Fury had a slow leak and used some before we got around to fixing the leak.

Reason I brought it up was read about someone ading R12 to a 50s vintage Coldspot.

 

[goatfarmer]

There are several drop in replacement R12 refrigerants these days. If you had a decent offer for your R12, I might be inclined to sell.

 

[arbilab]

At some point they stopped putting recharge ports in most fridges. Besides the cost, they are likely to cause more problems--leakage, contamination--than they solve.

 

[norgeway]

Frigidaire..

And Dupont developed Freon to replace sulfur dioxide,so2, because it was so nasty to work with, if you have ever smelled it , you know, Freon was much safer, unless it is exposed to a flame, it is odorless, I think freon was introduced around 34 or 35.So2 was used by GE ,Norge and Kelvinator until the mid to late 40s.So2 is a very bad smelling substance that will kill small animals and irritate your nose and lungs badly, it will also cause metals to rust very quickly.

 

[athanasius80]

I don't think Freon was invented to replace Sulfur Dioxide, I think it was invented to replace Methyl Chloride. (Well I know of no Sulfur Dioxide deaths, I do know of several Methyl Chloride deaths in the 1920s from leaky compressors.)

I think everyone had phased out of Sulfur Dioxide by around 1941-1941. You look at fridge catalogs from that period, and they place a lot of emphasis on the "new convenient" frozen foods. Friends with 1940s refrigerators don't have trouble with frozen foods, but friends with Monitor Tops tell me they've given up on frozen chicken and ice cream.

Aside from the ozone layer damage, it was a good refrigerant.

 

[norgeway]

Metheline Chloride

/*I think was used in household refrigerators by the Grigsby Grunow Co, Grunow brand fridge , Metheline Chloride was later blamed for the disaster at the big nightclub fire in 1942, but right now the name escapes me!!Anyway, Norge was using So2 up until 1947, they tried to use their old compressor with the new freon, and the result nearly bankrupted them, just about all the 47 model fridges had compressor failure and in those days that definately was not acceptable!!!They along with Frigidaire used a rotary compressor, Frigidaires was the Meter Miser, Norges was the Rollator, the difference was Frigidaires was designed around Freon, Norges was a old semi hermetic design designed for so2.So Norge fell terribly in the publics eye and until Judson Sayer became president in the early 50s Norge just about went under, but by 55 they werethe number 4 producer of appliances, Judson Sayer was the man who built the first automatic washer.."Bendix: He had retired and borg Warner had to pay MEGA bucks to get him.

 

[travis]

Monitor top evaporators were designed to freeze ice and possible some frozen deserts.  Frozen foods weren't very common when they were built.  The little misses was making frequent trips to the corner market anyway.

 

 

 

[norgeway]

Cocoanut Grove!!!

Was the name of the nightclub!! Supposedly Metheline Chloride was used in the AC because of a wartime shortage and it was highly flammable!!In the Grunow it was called Carrene.

 

[athanasius80]

Wait wait, Grunow Carrene was _methylene_ chloride. The possible Cocoanut Grove refrigerant was _methyl_ chloride. There's a chemical difference but I need to ask my chemical engineer buddy what it is.

 

[kb0nes]

Methyl vs Methylene Chloride

Methyl Chloride (Chloromethane) is highly flammable and was the refrigerant in use at the site of the Cocoanut Grove fire.

Methylene Chloride (Dichloromethane) is considered to be non-flammable.

Both are toxic and were phased out as refrigerants as the safer Dupont Freon products became available.

Years ago I remember when we found John's 1926(?) Frigidaire refrigerator at an estate sale in D.C. While we were moving the unit outside, Jeff gave the compressor pulley a turn to see if it still turned freely and the shaft seal started leaking. We weren't sure what the refrigerant was but suspected it might be Sulfur Dioxide. With the leak we decided it wasn't prudent to load it into the van and drive home with all of us riding in the toxic cloud. It was left outside of the residence overnight and we loosened a high side fitting before running away. I don't remember if we flipped a coin but I remember being the one to break the fitting. The crazy thing is that when we went back the next day to retrieve the unit, the Ivy that was growing on the wall of the nearby brick garage had turned brown. I think we are glad we didn't ride home with it leaking in the van!

 

[philr]

I had a GE refrigerator that used So2, a lot of old GE and Hoptpoints still in service use So2.

My former fridge.



GE and Hotpoint fridges having their S02 refrigerant removed before being recycled.





Unlike US models, these fridges had door shelves.

 

[goatfarmer]

Before I knew better, I was scrapping an old GE roundtop, using a sawzall. When I cut the refrigerant line, that smell just about overpowered me, and my dad, in the next room. It took most of the day to remove that smell, with doors and windows open.

 

[athanasius80]

What I would do to have a cylinder of SO2...

 

[kb0nes]

What I would do to have a cylinder of SO2...

Call Airgas and give them some money, they still sell it. Its probably cheaper then R-12 at this point too.

I like the MSDS point "Use only with adequate ventilation"...

http://www.airgas.com/documents/pdf/001047.pdf