R-22 vs. R410A

[supersurgilator]

Does anyone have any experience with the newer R410A refrigerant? I have heard, at least when it first came out, that it didn't get as cold as R-22 does. Is that still true, or have them made improvements to it since then. I was just curious.

 

[parunner58]

We replaced our original Carrier Round One LE in 2001 with a new Carrier Weather Maker, which has Puron(R410A) in it. I noticed the first few times we used it that the air coming out was not as cold as the older one. It does cool the house well. Rrunning it for a month straight keeping the house at 74 degrees it only made our electric bill go up about $30-$35. Our monthly electric bill was under $100 where as with the older onw we would look at $110-$130. This is a pic of the house it cools, it is a 26'x40' ranch

 

[revvinkevin]

I don't have a comparison for R-22 vs. R410a, but....

I'm in Southern California and installed central heat & air about a year and a half ago. I had the choice of R-22 or R410A but opted for R410A, because I was hearing (from different people) R-22 will be phased out in the not too distant future.

My house is all on one level and is just under 2200 sq. ft. and "the numbers" called for a 5 ton A/C unit. I do not have much need for A/C for most of the year, but when I do use it during the summer, it works very well!

If the house is 85 or above inside and I turn the A/C on, I start feeling cool air in about a minute (and I am not standing there with my hand at the vent). My system will bring the inside temp down to 78 and shut off in about an hour +/- depending on the temp outside.

F.Y.I. the name "Puron" is something Carrier dreamed up to make it sound like they came up with something exclusive for the residential A/C market, but they don't. It's simply R410A. Also, R410A requires higher system pressure, actually twice that of R-22. The high side normally runs around 400 psi.

 

[douglasdc6]

Im still pushing for R-22 till the end -I`m not looking forward to R410 Mostly because its a 2 part gas -If the system develops a leak you will have to evacuate the who system & recharge all over again - You cannot just top off the charge. If you top it off the system will not cool properly -Ben There done that.

Its a nightmare on the horizon.

 

[dj-gabriele]

In residential A/C and units under 20kW (IIRC) of power in the EU use of R22 is forbidden since 2003, our units run on R410 and I can't notice any difference in performance with old ones, also, if both machine are rated at say 9000BTU and they circulate (say) 400 cubic metres/h the temperature drop of air should be the same.

 

[ronhic]

I've attached an advisory note from one of the larger installers of HVAC

http://www.agcoombs.com.au/resources/advisory_notes/9/R22+Refrigerant+Phase-out/

 

[qsd-dan]

I've been meaning to try out Enviro-Safe refrigerant for a few years now. One of my buddies who has the manifold gauges and other A/C tools, changed out R22 and replace it with this stuff. He raves on and on about how great it's and even changed out both his car and his wife's car with it. He says the refrigerator and garage freezer are next, lol.

http://befreetech.com/envirosafe.htm

 

[tristarcxl]

R410-A

What a total F***ing joke!

For one, it's a multi-part gas, which means it will "stratify" while being compressed, reducing efficiency. Think of R134A for your car..... The hotter it gets outside, the WORSE it works. Get up in the mid 90's and it's hardly cooling at all!

For two, it requires higher pressures to operate. This means larger compressors, thicker tubing, and heavier coils. R22 runs at a maximum head pressure of around 300PSI while R410-A runs at 400+ PSI. This translates into higher energy consumption in the compressor as well as less efficient heat transfer due to thicker walls of the coils themselves, which in turn drives up energy consumption.

The kicker......it's Eco-friendly, right? Wrong! Even the EPA says so! Take one of their EPA certification tests! (I had to for my job, which is where this info comes from......directly from the EPA!) If you know your chemistry, R22 is a CFC which depletes the ozone layer (or so they say......the jury is still out since the hole seems to be closing inexplicably in the last decade...). R410-A is not. HOWEVER!!! R22 has a given "Greenhouse" rating, I don't recall the number off the top of my head at the moment. R410-A has a rating anywhere from 2-5x that of R22 depending on what study did the test!

So R410-A may not deplete the ozone layer, but it's not going to cool your house, it will create extra strain on the already straining utility grid, and it will cook us to death in the process. Good stuff huh?

For those of you interested in replacing your central or window unit, 2009 is the year to do it. 2010 signals the end of production for R22 appliances with the cessation of the production of R22 gas in the next few years. It's just like R-12 all over again......take away what works and give us CRAP in replacement! It sucks knowing that I'm old enough to remember when you could jump in a car and have it cool off within a couple of minutes...

 

[qsd-dan]

The kicker......it's Eco-friendly, right? Wrong! Even th

134a has been proven to cause testicular cancer upon contact. Wasn't a problem with R12. Sometimes this Eco bullshit gets taken waaaaaaaay too far!!!

 

[davek]

134a has been proven to cause testicular cancer upon contact

What what what? Don't spray any there!

Hint: If that's a problem, you're doing that wrong. Whatever it is.

 

[qsd-dan]

Hint: If that's a problem, you're doing that wrong.

LOL, you don't need to spray it directly on the family jewels, you only need to come in contact with it. And that includes the lungs!!

 

[mayguy]

R410 is in fact a blended refrigerant however it behaves like an azeotropic refrigenerant. That means it can be topped off as needed.

I have R-22 system in my home, and my parents has R-410 in theirs, and they have no problem keeping the house cooled with the R-410 when it's above 90˚ The house is 3,000sq ft cooled with Trane XL14i 2 ton system.

 

[tristarcxl]

Mayguy...

You also live in Minnesota! Try cooling a house in Texas that's 3000 sq. ft. with a 2 ton unit! I have a 2.5 in this house and it's only 1000 sq. ft! I have a 14 SEER Ruud Achiever in here too.....so it's not a weakling of an A/C either. I, for one, cast serious doubt that a 2 ton A/C will keep up with the cooling demands of a 3000 foot home even with the best insulation at 90 degrees....

Another little tidbit about R134a......it's toxic to inhale. R12 was only toxic if exposed to open flame.

 

[tolivac]

A workplace I used to work in use chillers that have 1000Lbs of HCFC134 refrigerant-read the drums it comes in-TOXIC-yes can cause cancer and toxic to exposure.The building had an alarm system that would go off if the chillers had any refrigereant leaks.The building was to be evacuated in that case.the older Carrier chillers used R11.Wasn't toxic-unless exposed to heat-the former maintenance techs said they even used the R11 as a cleaner for chiller parts-was a good degreaser.The area where I worked the chiller was shut down at night-I had to have cooling in the workplace-so the building enginner showed me how to start the 1200ton capacity Trane chiller that cooled my zone-sure did work better than the broken down window units-but used more power and refrigerant.The new Trane chillers use hermetic motors rated in amp draw rather than HP-the amp draw was about 80A max at 2500V three phase-the older Carrier chillers had 700hp open fram motors that drew 140A at rated load.The Carrier units had a two stage compresser-the motor (1800RPM) went thru a speed increase transmission to step speed up to 10,000RPM.The Trane units have a several stage compresser and run at 3600RPM-no transmission.The transmission had its own oil pump motor and filter system.The Trane chillers have an oil pump system for the motor and compresser bearings.In both the motors could not be started unless the oil pumps were on and generating proper flow and pressure.At the transmitter site they have 2 150ton cap Carrier chillers-have to check them each night on my shift.At the old workplac e the building and neighboring building were cooled by the 6 large chillers-3 600 tone and 3 1200 ton.Other areas of the building were cooled by 150 ton chillers like where I am at now.My house is cooled by a lowly Lennox unit-offhand don't remember what the cap is-My house is 1900 sq ft.The Lennox works well but like Trane better-One house I lived in had a Trane system and loved it!Made an excellent heat pump in the winter(wash DC area)Had to shovel snow from the condensor unit-and it was fine.fortunately centrifical chillers are pretty safe-the suction side is below atmospheric pressure-the pressure side is very low.-under several PSI at most.

 

[whitekingd]

Just because it's supposed to be "Green" doesn't mean it is! Much of "Green" is an advertising gimmick. I too miss R-12.

 

[mayguy]

tristarcxl

Our 90˚+ days are very few here in Minnesota. The system may run non stop that evening may fall behind a degree or two. Our summers are mostly 80's and that's how the system is designed.