Reliability of US FL?
- Thread starter bradlyl
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CR rated the old GE front loader (built by Electrolux) as good in terms of reliablity. What was different between that brand and others made by the same company (Kenmore and Frigidaire) is anyone's guess. Some report good sucess with early Frigidaire models, others had machines that barely made it past five years before the rear bearings gave out.
Personally, I suggest looking into a Miele front loader. They are built like tanks and you will probably grow bored with the unit long before anything major happens. If short cycle times do not bother you,look at the Speed Queen "Homestyle" front loaders. These basically are commercial laundromat washers in a cabinet designed for home use. Rugged, no frills washers that will get your laundry clean with little fuss.
Front loading washing machines have always been expensive to desgin and produce due to the nature of their construction. Supporting eleven or more pounds of wet laundry/water and then spinning it at high spin speeds safely day in and day out is no easy design feat. What seems to be happening is in the rush to market, many appliance makers are cutting corners to keep prices down.
L.
Personally, I suggest looking into a Miele front loader. They are built like tanks and you will probably grow bored with the unit long before anything major happens. If short cycle times do not bother you,look at the Speed Queen "Homestyle" front loaders. These basically are commercial laundromat washers in a cabinet designed for home use. Rugged, no frills washers that will get your laundry clean with little fuss.
Front loading washing machines have always been expensive to desgin and produce due to the nature of their construction. Supporting eleven or more pounds of wet laundry/water and then spinning it at high spin speeds safely day in and day out is no easy design feat. What seems to be happening is in the rush to market, many appliance makers are cutting corners to keep prices down.
L.
mayken4now
Well-known member
Have the Kenmore HE3T's and overall, good.
magic clean
Well-known member
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- Oct 15, 2004
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- 511
Too much information--analysis paralysis??
With all the information both good and questionable, my .02 cents worth is, buy what model has the features and price that suits your requirements. Then make sure it is installed correctly, thoroughly familiarize yourself with the machines features, use with care and enjoy.
With all the information both good and questionable, my .02 cents worth is, buy what model has the features and price that suits your requirements. Then make sure it is installed correctly, thoroughly familiarize yourself with the machines features, use with care and enjoy.
frontloadfan
New member
Consumer Reports Stats
Regarding this issue, I just checked Consumer Reports online. They just came out with a March 2006 report/rating for washing machines.
Regarding front load reliability, they surveyed 93,995 washing machine owners and they came out the with following stats for front load washers. The higher the percentage, the more percentage of machines needing repair.
Whirlpool 9%
Kenmore 10%
GE 12%
Frigidaire 13%
Maytag 21%
These stats are close enough, other than for Maytag, there isn't that much difference in them. I wonder with these stats if the first generation Electrolux front loaders (branded under Frigidaire/GE/Kenmore) are now water under the bridge. I bought my Frigidaire front loader in 1998 and its bearing went out last year. It seemed to be so common that the bearing on these machines went out.
Maybe the new Elctrolux machines don't have the bearing problem.
In my opinion, you would be wise to get the extended warranty if you are going to spend over $1,000 for a front loader. Most places offer 4 years warranty for around $100.
Regarding this issue, I just checked Consumer Reports online. They just came out with a March 2006 report/rating for washing machines.
Regarding front load reliability, they surveyed 93,995 washing machine owners and they came out the with following stats for front load washers. The higher the percentage, the more percentage of machines needing repair.
Whirlpool 9%
Kenmore 10%
GE 12%
Frigidaire 13%
Maytag 21%
These stats are close enough, other than for Maytag, there isn't that much difference in them. I wonder with these stats if the first generation Electrolux front loaders (branded under Frigidaire/GE/Kenmore) are now water under the bridge. I bought my Frigidaire front loader in 1998 and its bearing went out last year. It seemed to be so common that the bearing on these machines went out.
Maybe the new Elctrolux machines don't have the bearing problem.
In my opinion, you would be wise to get the extended warranty if you are going to spend over $1,000 for a front loader. Most places offer 4 years warranty for around $100.
I have a Frigidaire and like it a lot. No problems after 3 years at about 7 or 8 loads per week.
While I'm glad to see Speed Queen back in the domestic washer market, be forewarned that Consumer Report"s latest tests showed the SQ's cycle was so short (35 minutes, with a maximum 9-minute wash, about half that of most FL'ers) it didn't clean a heavily-soiled load well. It has been reported that SQ is releasing a redesigned machine in 2007 with reconfigured cycles. Having said that, someone around here owns one of these SQ's and he's happy with it, although he stated he rarely washes heavily-soiled loads.
My recommendations for front-loaders: Kenmore, Whirlpool, Frigidaire. These machines clean well and have good reliability track records. Good luck with your new purchase and please let us know which machine you decide to purchase.
While I'm glad to see Speed Queen back in the domestic washer market, be forewarned that Consumer Report"s latest tests showed the SQ's cycle was so short (35 minutes, with a maximum 9-minute wash, about half that of most FL'ers) it didn't clean a heavily-soiled load well. It has been reported that SQ is releasing a redesigned machine in 2007 with reconfigured cycles. Having said that, someone around here owns one of these SQ's and he's happy with it, although he stated he rarely washes heavily-soiled loads.
My recommendations for front-loaders: Kenmore, Whirlpool, Frigidaire. These machines clean well and have good reliability track records. Good luck with your new purchase and please let us know which machine you decide to purchase.
Some Fast FL groups
SQ is not alone for Fast wash, many other NA washers tend to shorten the time of wash phase to 9-15 min for Normal Soiled cycle.
As noted from various source for the total time of REGULAR (Normal Soiled) cycle of some H-axis washers:
Speed Queen/Huebsch FL = 30 min ( 9 min wash + 2 rinses + 1 spin)
Staber = 32 min (about 10-15 min wash + 2 rinses + 1 spin)
HE3t = 45 min (15 min wash + 2 R +1 S)
Frigidaire ATF6000 = ? min ( 15 min wash + 2R + 1S)
Perhaps SQ should add a "Heavy Soiled" option (a longer time option) in their next version.
In fact SQ/Huebsch had such option in their FL prior 2003 (e.g. SQ LTS8* and Huebsch LTZ8*). It is a shame that SQ removes this option in the existing version.
SQ is not alone for Fast wash, many other NA washers tend to shorten the time of wash phase to 9-15 min for Normal Soiled cycle.
As noted from various source for the total time of REGULAR (Normal Soiled) cycle of some H-axis washers:
Speed Queen/Huebsch FL = 30 min ( 9 min wash + 2 rinses + 1 spin)
Staber = 32 min (about 10-15 min wash + 2 rinses + 1 spin)
HE3t = 45 min (15 min wash + 2 R +1 S)
Frigidaire ATF6000 = ? min ( 15 min wash + 2R + 1S)
Perhaps SQ should add a "Heavy Soiled" option (a longer time option) in their next version.
In fact SQ/Huebsch had such option in their FL prior 2003 (e.g. SQ LTS8* and Huebsch LTZ8*). It is a shame that SQ removes this option in the existing version.
Designgeek
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2004
- Messages
- 865
Also, if you're new to using a given type of machine, assume you're going to have a learning curve of 1 - 2 months.
With FLs, one of the things to get used to is, reducing your dosage of detergent so you get good cleaning results and yet all of it comes out in the rinse. Another is the length of the cycle, which in some cases (e.g. sanitary wash) can take 1-1/2 hours or longer. There are others; but the summation of all this is, for the first month or two assume you're going to be experimenting with the unit to find the best cycles & settings for your purposes.
And of course, when done doing laundry, leave the door of the machine open so it dries out internally, which prevents mould growing. This also applies to TLs though not as strenuously.
With FLs, one of the things to get used to is, reducing your dosage of detergent so you get good cleaning results and yet all of it comes out in the rinse. Another is the length of the cycle, which in some cases (e.g. sanitary wash) can take 1-1/2 hours or longer. There are others; but the summation of all this is, for the first month or two assume you're going to be experimenting with the unit to find the best cycles & settings for your purposes.
And of course, when done doing laundry, leave the door of the machine open so it dries out internally, which prevents mould growing. This also applies to TLs though not as strenuously.
Is US FL less reliabble?
Yes, when compared with TL.
More complex machines. Inexperience in usage, maintenance and handling.
Yes, when compared with Euro FL.
Less experience/history in manufacturing of full-size FL. Large size would introduce more vibration/noise problem.
Yes, when compared with TL.
More complex machines. Inexperience in usage, maintenance and handling.
Yes, when compared with Euro FL.
Less experience/history in manufacturing of full-size FL. Large size would introduce more vibration/noise problem.
frontloadfan
New member
Large Euro FL???
I am curious how much experience european companies have in making large size front loaders? Other than commerical models, haven't the european front loaders for the home typically been even smaller than the smaller Frigidaire? I know when I have had friends from Europe at my home and they viewed my Frigidaire, they commented how "big" it was.
It is interesting too that so many "American" front loaders are derived from European models. When I got my first front loader (the Frigidaire), it came with a video that commented how the company had researched so many front load machines in Italy and Switzerland to come up with the model. The big whirlpools/kenmores/kitchenaids are made in Germany. The Seimans/Bosch front loaders are made in the U.S., but are surely of German design.
About the only front loader you can point at and say totally American is the old Maytag Neptune and we know how well that turned out!
I am curious how much experience european companies have in making large size front loaders? Other than commerical models, haven't the european front loaders for the home typically been even smaller than the smaller Frigidaire? I know when I have had friends from Europe at my home and they viewed my Frigidaire, they commented how "big" it was.
It is interesting too that so many "American" front loaders are derived from European models. When I got my first front loader (the Frigidaire), it came with a video that commented how the company had researched so many front load machines in Italy and Switzerland to come up with the model. The big whirlpools/kenmores/kitchenaids are made in Germany. The Seimans/Bosch front loaders are made in the U.S., but are surely of German design.
About the only front loader you can point at and say totally American is the old Maytag Neptune and we know how well that turned out!
My Speed Queen
I have the SQ front loader and as frigilux stated I am very happy with it, and he is also right that my laundry is not heavily soiled. Of course that is also not my only machine and do have an older Maytag that I use as well. A longer cycle on the SQ would be nice for those who need it and I think they are addressing that in the future. As far as the quality of the machine it is built to last, unlike many other thing these days.
I have the SQ front loader and as frigilux stated I am very happy with it, and he is also right that my laundry is not heavily soiled. Of course that is also not my only machine and do have an older Maytag that I use as well. A longer cycle on the SQ would be nice for those who need it and I think they are addressing that in the future. As far as the quality of the machine it is built to last, unlike many other thing these days.
Suspensions
Of all the new front loader machines on the market do they all have 2 or 4 shock absorbers??
I wonder if in our European 24 inch wide cabinets with an average of 5kg washload, that the drum ratio of weighted wet clothes , spin speed and solid floors is a perfect washing/spinning action.
Anything bigger, i.e. larger drum, more inertia on spin, 2 shocks, possible wooden floors, sensitive speed controllers is just gonna cause problems etc..
All our front loaders up until the 80`s never had spin balancing, after the wash rinse the drum started revolving at distribution speed pinning the clothes against the sides of the drum, the pump was on to pump water out and then it went straight into its optimum spin, and up to its top speed without stopping.
My new MaytAso FL does this now, no wishy washy distribution spin, just straight up to 800, them 1200, 1400 & finally 1600 without stopping inbetween all over 9 minutes.
Just done a 60d quick wash, 4 rinses, high water level, 1600 spin in 48 mins.
Cheers, Mike
Of all the new front loader machines on the market do they all have 2 or 4 shock absorbers??
I wonder if in our European 24 inch wide cabinets with an average of 5kg washload, that the drum ratio of weighted wet clothes , spin speed and solid floors is a perfect washing/spinning action.
Anything bigger, i.e. larger drum, more inertia on spin, 2 shocks, possible wooden floors, sensitive speed controllers is just gonna cause problems etc..
All our front loaders up until the 80`s never had spin balancing, after the wash rinse the drum started revolving at distribution speed pinning the clothes against the sides of the drum, the pump was on to pump water out and then it went straight into its optimum spin, and up to its top speed without stopping.
My new MaytAso FL does this now, no wishy washy distribution spin, just straight up to 800, them 1200, 1400 & finally 1600 without stopping inbetween all over 9 minutes.
Just done a 60d quick wash, 4 rinses, high water level, 1600 spin in 48 mins.
Cheers, Mike
the7, you were a bit misleading about the HE3T's normal cycle being 45 minutes. That cycle is confusingly labeled as normal/casual. That cycle is actually the permanent press/wrinkle free cycle. Whitest Whites with wash temp set to warm or hot has a 60 minute cycle time. And BTW Leslie, I was very pleased to see the Oasis' cycles have one specifically for casual/wrinkle free and one designated as Normal. Far more accurate in helping the uninformed owner who doesn't erally read their manuals lol.
Ooooh, those Maytags are sharp-looking! Very nice; thanks for the picture.
Two things stop me from replacing my current Frigidaire:
1) I like having a mechanical cycle dial to easily add more wash time, skip an unneeded rinse, etc.
2) I don't want a machine that takes forever to distribute a load before the spin. Adding 10 or 15 minutes to a cycle for that would drive me crazy.
Two things stop me from replacing my current Frigidaire:
1) I like having a mechanical cycle dial to easily add more wash time, skip an unneeded rinse, etc.
2) I don't want a machine that takes forever to distribute a load before the spin. Adding 10 or 15 minutes to a cycle for that would drive me crazy.
hoovermatic
Well-known member
A quick wash in 48 mins!!!! I want one of those then 'cos my 'quick' wash takes longer in my new machine (90 mins) than a full boil wash in my old one!!!
A 90-minute quick wash? Good God! What kind of washer do you have? The quick wash cycle on my Frigidaire is 30 minutes (6 min. wash, 2 rinses, 10 min. spin).
OMG!! 90 minutes? That's too long! My Miele can do a Quick Wash at cold-40*C in 30 mins - 10 min wash, 2 rinses and a 1600rpm spin., or a 10 min wash, 3 rinses and a 1600rpm spin in 34 or 35 mins IIRC.
The standard cycles aren't too bad on my Miele though either... 51 minutes for minimum iron 40*C, 54 minutes for 40*C cottons, and 1.00 or so for 60*C cottons. Not bad especially this time of year when the water being heated up is particularly cold! (Have noticed that cycles get considerably shorter in summer due to the warmer incoming water supply).
The AEG, on the other hand, has a 168 minute wash time for the 95*C boilwash as standard, reduceable to 135 and then 111 minutes. Standard 40*C wash is 133 mins, can be reduced to "quick" at 103 mins, and the quickest 40*C wash can be done in 60 minutes or so, but still the cycles drag on for longer than the Miele, and also it can take an age to balance so often the 60 minute cycle can end up taking 75 minutes or so! The Miele on the other hand gets laundry distributed & balanced straight away 95% of the time (unlike a lot of other frontloaders, Miele's distribution is a slow tumble getting progressively faster until it reachs distribution speed, then after a couple of seconds at distribution speed it goes into spin) and within a minute of draining the rinse water it can have profiled up to the 1000rpm interim spin. The final spin does a couple of bursts to prevent excessive creasing, but still the final spin can be done in 8 minutes (1-3 bursts, without out of balance load detection (good as theres no point in it for a measly burst), depending on how much water the load sheds, and then 15 seconds each at 400, 600, & 900, then 4 minutes at 1200 and a further 2 minutes at 1600), versus the 14 minutes my AEG takes to do a final spin - tumble, burst, tumble, burst, tumble, burst, tumble, 800rpm 1 min, slow down, then a 5 minute spin where it goes up through 800/1000/1200/1400 - no set times at speeds as it seems to adjust how long it spins at each speed for according to the load - i.e. lighter loads will get less time at 1600 whereas heavier loads such as towels will sometimes go straight to 1600 without profiling speeds. Another annoying thign about the AEG is that it insists on being perfectly balanced for every single burst, unlike the Miele where it bursts regardless of how balanced the load is, so the AEG's 14 minute spin cycle can often become more like 20 minutes!
BTW my Bosch doesn't dilly dally about either - the quickest Easy Cares cycle takes 45 minutes, quickest Cottons 40*C cycle takes 53 minutes, and it just gets straight into the spin without any silly bursts. But neither the Bosch or the AEG offer quick wash cycles like the Miele does - i.e. the 30 minute Quick Wash and 43 minute Automatic washes I have.
But, of course, I'll have a totally new (well, new old) machine to take notes off this weekend. Everybody say bye bye, Lavamat, for now at least
Jon
The standard cycles aren't too bad on my Miele though either... 51 minutes for minimum iron 40*C, 54 minutes for 40*C cottons, and 1.00 or so for 60*C cottons. Not bad especially this time of year when the water being heated up is particularly cold! (Have noticed that cycles get considerably shorter in summer due to the warmer incoming water supply).
The AEG, on the other hand, has a 168 minute wash time for the 95*C boilwash as standard, reduceable to 135 and then 111 minutes. Standard 40*C wash is 133 mins, can be reduced to "quick" at 103 mins, and the quickest 40*C wash can be done in 60 minutes or so, but still the cycles drag on for longer than the Miele, and also it can take an age to balance so often the 60 minute cycle can end up taking 75 minutes or so! The Miele on the other hand gets laundry distributed & balanced straight away 95% of the time (unlike a lot of other frontloaders, Miele's distribution is a slow tumble getting progressively faster until it reachs distribution speed, then after a couple of seconds at distribution speed it goes into spin) and within a minute of draining the rinse water it can have profiled up to the 1000rpm interim spin. The final spin does a couple of bursts to prevent excessive creasing, but still the final spin can be done in 8 minutes (1-3 bursts, without out of balance load detection (good as theres no point in it for a measly burst), depending on how much water the load sheds, and then 15 seconds each at 400, 600, & 900, then 4 minutes at 1200 and a further 2 minutes at 1600), versus the 14 minutes my AEG takes to do a final spin - tumble, burst, tumble, burst, tumble, burst, tumble, 800rpm 1 min, slow down, then a 5 minute spin where it goes up through 800/1000/1200/1400 - no set times at speeds as it seems to adjust how long it spins at each speed for according to the load - i.e. lighter loads will get less time at 1600 whereas heavier loads such as towels will sometimes go straight to 1600 without profiling speeds. Another annoying thign about the AEG is that it insists on being perfectly balanced for every single burst, unlike the Miele where it bursts regardless of how balanced the load is, so the AEG's 14 minute spin cycle can often become more like 20 minutes!
BTW my Bosch doesn't dilly dally about either - the quickest Easy Cares cycle takes 45 minutes, quickest Cottons 40*C cycle takes 53 minutes, and it just gets straight into the spin without any silly bursts. But neither the Bosch or the AEG offer quick wash cycles like the Miele does - i.e. the 30 minute Quick Wash and 43 minute Automatic washes I have.
But, of course, I'll have a totally new (well, new old) machine to take notes off this weekend. Everybody say bye bye, Lavamat, for now at least
Jon
Mike,
Great machine pair. They made by Asko. Asko FL has one of the best suspension as far as I know. But eariler version of Asko in NA seemed to have some motor problem.
FL in 70s and 80s are maily slow speed spin (say 600rpm or less) machines. So load balanciing is not a problem.
Your MayAsk, like most other FL, has a "load balance" technique by ramming up in steps.
Unfornatunally, some FL manufacturers design very complicate "load balance" technique and think their technique will work even for the poor suspension (using 2 springs and 2 dampers) which could be OK for slow spin. It seems LG has 2 springs and 2 dampers.
Some may add 1 more spring. Other may add 1 or 2 more dampers.
I think the best suspension system should has 4 springs and 4 dampers. Asko, SQ and Staber have 4 shocks (damper with internal spring). Miele has 4 springs and 2 hydraulic dampers.
Great machine pair. They made by Asko. Asko FL has one of the best suspension as far as I know. But eariler version of Asko in NA seemed to have some motor problem.
FL in 70s and 80s are maily slow speed spin (say 600rpm or less) machines. So load balanciing is not a problem.
Your MayAsk, like most other FL, has a "load balance" technique by ramming up in steps.
Unfornatunally, some FL manufacturers design very complicate "load balance" technique and think their technique will work even for the poor suspension (using 2 springs and 2 dampers) which could be OK for slow spin. It seems LG has 2 springs and 2 dampers.
Some may add 1 more spring. Other may add 1 or 2 more dampers.
I think the best suspension system should has 4 springs and 4 dampers. Asko, SQ and Staber have 4 shocks (damper with internal spring). Miele has 4 springs and 2 hydraulic dampers.
The7,
Actually there were machines with 1100rpm spins on the European market as far back as the 1970s. My nana's old Hoover washer dating from the late 70s had a spin speed of 1100rpm, which my nana said was the fastest available at the time. Whilst a lot of cheaper washers still spun at below 1000rpm, there were indeed a number of machines that had reached the 1000rpm mark and over.
Jon
Actually there were machines with 1100rpm spins on the European market as far back as the 1970s. My nana's old Hoover washer dating from the late 70s had a spin speed of 1100rpm, which my nana said was the fastest available at the time. Whilst a lot of cheaper washers still spun at below 1000rpm, there were indeed a number of machines that had reached the 1000rpm mark and over.
Jon
